School Lockdown

[trickyasafox]

we did this drill while i was in highschool. it had less to do with us feeling safe and more for the school to search lockers for pot. ok everyone your locked in your rooms! then they'd go check some lockers, then let us out, come back with police and say someone tipped em off. i was never in trouble in hs, nor do i smoke pot. however, even i figured out what was happening. this occured in both middle and high school.

edited to add: im not saying what the administrators did was wrong, im not a fan of searches and would have felt violated but i wasnt in there position. im just pointing out what seemed to be a theme as observed by me.

 

[sam59]

Redemption

I expected this to continue into a bashing of the education system, SWAT, teachers etc.... But to my pleasant suprise some well thought out and experienced talking points. Good to see some rationale thought for a change.

 

[civilian]

i'm really not understanding this thread. some of you guys are suggesting that in the event of an emergency (that the average kid, hell the average adult might not fully comprehend: fire? gunman? wild animal on the grounds? mercury scare? etc), your kid should go screaming out into the hallway or out of a window and run head-on into that unknown threat? is this any different than an intruder entering your home, and instead of staying put in the agreed upon room you've hopefully designated, your kid goes flying down the stairs into the dark living room to get out of the house and right into the threat? or perhaps when you're out on the street and a loud explosion is heard, instead of staying put by your side your kid takes off across two lanes of traffic and under the wheel of a moving vehicle? All different examples, and perhaps none of them will happen, but you're leaving that decision to a kid? tell you what - when your kid decides to implement dad's "flight" plan - just make sure he's not yapping in my kid's ear to "follow me!"

 

[HankB]

Lock down or bug out?

Seems to me this would have a LOT to do with the age of the students.

More than a few years have passed since I've been in high school, but if I were still 15 and there was some lunatic shooting things up and a "lockdown" was announced, I'd be gone if my classroom happened to be on the first floor . . . and trust me, by high school I'd have had enough judgement not to run out into traffic.

If I were in a position to not leave - say, on the 3rd floor - and locked in a room . . . that door WOULD be barricaded with desks, bookcases, everything that wasn't nailed down.

Again, that's for high school . . . if dealing with little kids in elementary school . . . I'm not so sure.

 

[migoi]

What is always..

funny about these thread having to do with schools is how many posters seem totally unaware that most schools are begging parents and community members to be part of the school and the decision making processes that occur there.

One of the items that have to be proven by the school during the accreditation process is how parents and community members are involved in the school (and we're not talking about baking cupcakes anymore). We just went through our accreditation visit last week and not only were a goodly number of the questions some form of "How did you make sure all stakeholders (the word for anyone have anything to do with the school) were involved in the process to reach this point but they met several times with groups of parents, students, and community members.

But I guess it's just easier to bash on an internet forum than actually get in there and do the work to change things.

migoi

 

[Aguila Blanca]

I find it funny how quite a few have an opinion on how to do it better or the current way is crap etc.... but i bet you have not gone to your school and suggested anything different. There is so much misinformation in this entire thread it's scary.

I have spoken with the school, and the police department.

For the benefit of whoever asked (after I had said I was not in education), no I am not in education. I am an architect who writes specifications for school security. They are building a huge addition to the high school in my town, and I have reviewed my concerns with both the police department and the school administration, and sent my comments in writing to the Board of Education.

First, let me make clear that references to "lockdown" do not mean that anyone is locked into a classroom. That's not the way the locks work. The doors will be locked on the corridor side but, by law (fire codes) the knob on the inside of the room must always be capable of opening the door, even if the hallway side is locked. The lock manufacturers now have a new lock type (called a "function") for "Classroom Security" locks. The lock has a key slot on each side. On the hallway side, as always, the teacher needs a key to unlock the door, and a key to lock it.

The old classroom locks had no key slot on the inside. The new security locks do. The purpose is obvious (I hope): because most classroom doors swing out into the hall (for fire code reasons), a teacher would have to go out into the corridor to lock the door. Not a good idea if there's a shooter in the corridor. The new function allows them to lock the door from inside, without having to go into the corridor. But I stress that the knob (or lever, probably) on the inside can still open the door if escape should become necessary.

I agree about glass. One of my comments regarding the proposed addition to my town's high school is that most of the new classrooms will have security locks, and LARGE glass sidelights right next to the doors. I pointed out to the administration and to the deputy chief of police (who heads the school response team) the insanity of locking a door and leaving a window big enough to walk through if a shooter decides to take it out. Fortunately, the existing classrooms do NOT have sidelights.

Those doors, by the way, are heavy. Maybe we should ask that guy at the Box 'o Truth to try shooting through some solid-core doors. They are 1-3/4" of high-density particle board. I;m sure they won't stop a .50 cal bullet from a Barrett, but if they won't stop a handgun round I expect they'll take a lot of the steam off it. I'm more concerned about a shooter firing through the walls around the doors, but he'd be shooting blind at that point so you have to hope that psychologically he won't "see" a target, so won't recognize that he has a target-rich environment behind those lockers.

Yes, I have given this much serious consideration over a period of several years, because it's my job, and I have discussed it with the first responders. I firmly believe that 99% of the time, just like 99% of the time you're safer if you DO wear seatbelts, the kids will be safer staying in the classrooms. The response team will establish communication from a central point, and if/when a room or wing is safe enough to evacuate, they will order the kids out. Telling your kids to run on their own, counter to what the response team is expecting, is IMHO very stupid.

 

[Guy de Loimbard]

I think my high school CAD teacher had it right.

He said if our school had a situation like that, he didn't really care what we did. He wouldn't try to stop us from leaving if we wanted to, he would be too busy breaking land speed records on the way out, heading to the police station 1/4 mile down the road.

Our classroom had a door into the machine shop, a door to the outside and windows along the same side as the machine shop door; the windows were looking into the machine shop. There was no where to hide.

 

[Maxwell]

Its the divide between what would be a smart response to different problems. You move differently to a fire than you would to a bomb or gunman, or a deer lost in the hallway for that matter.

For a general response to trouble inside, I think the best idea is to be outside the building as quickly as possible using alternate routs.

You want to know what else I think?
I think doors are overrated.

Personaly I like me an open window and a ladder in an emergency. If I built a school, it would have exploding wall panels and inflating slides like airliners.

Maybe a gunman has an unlimited field of fire outside, but I also have the world of hiding spots. I'll take zigzagging across an open playground over trying to outrun bullets down a hallway or hiding in a closet.

 

[nfl1990]

(Not that authority needs to be respected at all times, but disrespect should be reserved for authorities who act like dictators.)

Technically in a classrom the teacher is a dictator.

Also, those of you talking about kicking down school doors: there is no need.
I know from experiance that nearly all doors in my school can be credit cared in 3-5seconds, (I know of at least one door where you could even use a pencil, and not the sharp side either))

 

[engineer151515]

Sometimes the best made plans are ... well... not the best. The World Trade Center's stay in place plan turned out to be a bad idea. I can think of some industrial accidents (offshore oil rigs) where the e-plan contributed to fatalities. But you need something and bug out would be difficult.

migoi
most schools are begging parents and community members to be part of the school and the decision making processes that occur there

I know we disagree about public schools but it seems yours at least care.

 

[SSN Vet]

nice quote

+1 to Maxwells quote

"The best way to stop a shooter is to shoot them"

Armed pilots for jihadist hijackers...

Why not armed teachers for the trenchcoat gothic school shooters...if of course they could restrain themselves from disciplining the students with their weapon.

 

[belton-deer-hunter]

at our school we have lockdowns all the tiem mostly for drug searchs of our vehicles and persons and book bags etc. they have the nice little black lab come in and smell us and our things. i have never done drugs so i havent had a problem about that but they also taught them to smell gun powder and that has got my truck searched a copule of times i have to go outside to my truck and let them in to it so they can rumage around find some .22 shells or a shotgun shell never any guns but they still look and let me go back to class when they are done

 

[JJpdxpinkpistols]

As always, the American educator is public enemy #1 on The High Road.

Judging by the salaries paid and high work load combined with the lack of respect and costant bashing, I would say that the American Educator is Public Enemy #1 PERIOD. not just on THR.

My dad, MIL, SIL and stepfather are, or have been teachers. My sister is in school to be a teacher. All work very hard, for little pay and have intense beauracracy to deal with, at least locally. Having said that, I choose not to overburden the classrooms with my daughters. We homeschool. Our "School" is always protected by armed guards

the best I can honestly do is have the students duck and cover in a corner of the room

Agreed. Given the tools at hand, typical building layouts (we build schools to be open places, not fortresses) and will of the people, you are right on target.

If I bring my CCW, I am committing all sorts of crimes. It's not an option.

Now a question!

*IF* you could CCW, would you?

 

[HankB]

they also taught them to smell gun powder and that has got my truck searched a couple of times

Sounds like an opportunity to me . . . suppose "someone" sprinkled some illicit substance ALL AROUND the school in quantities that are invisible, but which a dog could smell? Perhaps by making a "tea" out of it and then squirting, oh, teacher's lockers, the principal's car tires, etc.?

 

[migoi]

Yep,

that's sure to improve the education the students in that school are receiving. Adding chaos to the system always helps.

migoi

 

[grimjaw]

I see Hawkmoon has been drinking the koolaid

TarpleyG, what part of his statement did you find wrong? There was an incident where a kid pulled a fire alarm and waited until people exited the building and shot them outside. Happened at Westside in Arkansas, and my roommate had just finished delivering office supplies there 30 minutes earlier.

jmm

 

[Bill2k1]

The school lockdown is the best way to try and save as many kids as possible. I am sure if it were a real situation that the teacher would think on their feet and maybe break a window and get kids going out it.

You have to look at it this way. There are say 30 kids in a classroom and 1 teacher. Figure there are 300 kids in the school. Total number of people in the school maybe 450.

You have to make a blanket plan to protect them ALL, and the lockdown plan is the best choice.

 

[cracked butt]

I would think that a kid getting into a classroom is a really good second option if they aren't close enough to an exit to get out. The doors I remember in my high school were very heavy and stout- not bullet proof though. It beats the heck out of running around in the hallways in a panic.

 

[Maxwell]

You have to make a blanket plan to protect them ALL, and the lockdown plan is the best choice.

If its just a shooting.
Columbine was intended to be a combination attack. I think it invites a disaster to assume someone out to kill hundreds of people will only do it with one meathod in mind.

 

[another okie]

There's no 100% solution. Any choice administrators make could occasionally lead to a disaster.

But running through hallways if there's a shooter in the school is not a very good idea. After Columbine police changed their tactics. Before that the idea was to establish a perimeter and wait for backup and negotiators. Since they followed their training at Columbine and were criticized for it, police have adopted a new set of tactics.

Now they come in ready to shoot. It's called "hall boss" and they are trained to see people in the hallway as perpetrators. That's the second part of the "lockdown" idea, and if you don't know that they have that in mind then the lockdown may seem stupid.

This new plan will probably result in a few successes and a few failures, and then we'll go back to the old plan, which will result in a few successes and a few failures, and then we'll go back to hall boss. Americans are apparently no longer mature enough to accept the fact that sometimes bad stuff happens and no plan can prevent every harm.

 

[LawDog]

current Swat strategy of "Wait outside until the shooting stops",

Incorrect and out of date by almost a decade.

We undergo what Texas refers to as Active Shooter Response.

What that breaks down to, is as soon as three other officers get to the school, we're going hunting inside. I'm here to tell you, if my partner and I get there, we're going in with only two officers, and we're not going in there to negotiate, we're not going in there to scout, we're going in there to stop the shooting now.

If we run across your kids, they're going to have a whole bunch of AR15's and 12 gauges pointed at them while we figure out if they're critters or not.

Which takes time. Time we don't have. Time that the actual shooters get as a gift while us scared/nervous/adrenaline-charged officers are pointing loaded weapons at your kids who are wandering out in critter territory because all the non-critters are inside the classrooms.

LawDog

 

[Aguila Blanca]

Methinks LawDog is trying to make a point.

Thank you, LawDog, for offering the real-world backup for my contention that it's really NOT a good idea to be out cruising the corridors when the school is supposed to be in lockdown.

What you're saying is that the kid who tries to go it alone may become a target for both the bad guy(s) and the good guys. I'll take my chances on the classroom.

But I do wish that teachers and staff could/would be armed and trained. Heck, if we have a federal flightdeck officer program, why don't we have a federal classroom officer program?

 

[Larry Ashcraft]

Teacher-bashing and cop-bashing seem to be favorite sports on this forum. I won't participate in either, but I will offer this up:

We took an active part in our kids' education, conferring with teachers and principals all the way through. We were rewarded with three very good students who have gone onto good careers, one of them as a teacher.

Believe me, I have seen the school system from inside in more ways than one (I've also been in the trophy business for 36 years, and many of my customers are teachers).

The school system isn't out to indoctrinate your kids (at least the ones I'm aware of), they are primarily trying to do their jobs, which is to educate your children and to do that they will do anything in their power to keep your children safe.

The lockdown procedures put in place by the principal and staff are well thought out, believe me, they don't take the safety of your (their) children lightly. The poster above (sorry, I don't remember who it was) who said he would put his life on the line for "his" children exemplifies the attitude of my daughter and most teachers I have known.

There was a school lockdown a couple weeks ago when an off-duty cop was killed in Colorado Springs and the perp was on the loose in the area.

You want your kid trying to run home when this guy is running from the cops?

Point is: I would trust the teachers and principal to protect my kids. That's their job, and they are surprisingly good at it given what they have to work with.

 

[nswtex]

My parents told me that if my little desk was good enough defense for the hydrogen bomb then my wimpy little tornados, bomb threats, and crazy kids had no chance of touching me as long as I had my head tucked between my knees and covering my neck with my hands while in the fetal position under my desk.

 

[bigun15]

Just realize that there is a big difference between a lockdown drill and a lockdown, and we know it. There are two different alarms at my school, one for drills and one for real-time shootings. When there's a drill, we just sit under our desks and consider ourselves lucky for getting a few more minutes of class time wasted. If the real thing happened, I view it as my responsibility to do whatever it takes to keep myself and more importantly the others safe. Yes, there are makeshift weapons in a classroom. Pencils and sharpeners, pens, heavy hole punchers, scissors, thick schoolbooks, tables (for cover/concealment, not so much a weapon), glass from overheads, broken pointy yardsticks, it goes on. If I'm going to die by the hand of a psycho shooter, I'm taking him with me.