Scout Rifle vs. AR15 for urban situations

[orangeninja]

Hello all,

Recently I have been hearing alot of AR15 "patrol rifle" this and "urban rifle" that. I began to wonder what all the hype was about so I researched a bit and it seems that the AR is the front runner to replace the venerable and much lauded 12ga. pump. On the surface this seems okay, the AR is accurate, relatively quick firing and light weight, but upon looking at some of the reasoning, the "fire power" never seems to get mentioned. Simply, with an AR an officer can stop a fight with one precise shot. Granted this is the ideal.

So then why not a light weight scout rifle? It's fast, more accurate than an AR and can be used in hostage situations with alarming effectiveness. It does not have the firepower that the AR has, but then the AR does not have the accuracy of the Scout...which is why the AR was selected.

Ideally an officer would go to his truck, pop the lid and there would be a small gun safe full of arms for the correct application, but that is not the situation in most cases. Shotgun/AR up front and visa versa in the trunk.

Now I know about how an AR would be better for building clearing than a scout, but a shottie beats both. And I know how a gang of AK bearing bank robbers would be equally matched by an AR, but cops don't (or shouldn't) spray return fire, so a scout would be better.

So what is the AR? A compromise?

 

[thatguy]

I am leery of any center-fire rifle for urban use due to the range and penetration. I would think the shotgun would serve in 99% of situations.

Now a Highwaypatrolman or a Sheriff's Deputy in the country might want a rifle.

 

[middy]

I don't see how a scout rifle being "more accurate" is a big advantage. A decent AR can have 1 MOA accuracy, and I can't see a LEO needing more than that... unless he's well trained, the AR will be more accurate than he is, especially with iron sights, and if he's that good why not hand him a Rem 700 with nice glass and shoo him off to SWAT?

Quick follow-up shots can be important, even a .308 is not a guaranteed one-shot-stop, and officers may have to deal with multiple opponents, a bolt-action with a 5-round mag can be pretty limiting in such circumstances.

Unless I was part of a team I would feel more comfortable with an AR than a Scout.

 

[Rockrivr1]

Isn't the overall description of a scout rifle is that it's in the .30 caliber range? I'm thinking most departments are thinking about overpenetration in regards to carrying a scout rifle instead of an AR15. My local department was issued the Sig SG 551. I know a bunch of those guys and they let me take a look at one. Very light, 30 rnd mag capacity of .223, folding stock and select fire. Can't beat that. One sweet rifle. Now I just have to convince one of them to take me to the range with it.

 

[orangeninja]

Isn't the overall description of a scout rifle is that it's in the .30 caliber range? I'm thinking most departments are thinking about overpenetration in regards to carrying a scout rifle instead of an AR15. My local department was issued the Sig SG 551. I know a bunch of those guys and they let me take a look at one. Very light, 30 rnd mag capacity of .223, folding stock and select fire. Can't beat that. One sweet rifle. Now I just have to convince one of them to take me to the range with it.

Why not a .223?

Personally I find the 9mm AR select fire to be ideal....

 

[Chris Rhines]

Disclamer: I am not at all a fan of the Scout rifle concept.

The AR-15 platform is just as accurate within the effective range of the target, and provides for far more firepower and quicker reloading besides. Why would a patrol office want to handicap himself with a bolt-action rifle?

- Chris

 

[Deer Hunter]

Give me a shotgun anyday, especially for urban combat. That, or the select-fire DSA FAL Law Enforcement edition...behold!

 

[orangeninja]

Disclamer: I am not at all a fan of the Scout rifle concept.

The AR-15 platform is just as accurate within the effective range of the target, and provides for far more firepower and quicker reloading besides. Why would a patrol office want to handicap himself with a bolt-action rifle?

- Chris

Just debating the theory of a patrol rifle. Accuracy vs. firepower....

 

[chrisTx]

i carry both. when distance is an issue, a rifle is the weapon of choice. in close quarters or engaging several close targets, like a felony stop, the shotgn has no equal.

i've never seen a carpenter try and hammer up a rafter with a screwdriver. cops should have the right tools for the job.

 

[NMshooter]

The AR gives you both accuracy and firepower.

And in a department acceptable package, too.

Though I have heard of a few depts allowing 7.62x51, some even issue surplus M-14s.

Unless you see yourself as needing the extra penetration the .223 is plenty for what you would use it for.

For animals I would think your trusty 12ga. with Brenneke slugs would take care of business, especially with all those huge bears and deer you have in Texas...

 

[agtman]

"Scout Rifle vs. AR15 for urban situations"


Okay, interesting question. But in my view a lot turns on what you mean by "urban situation" (or what scenario you envision using that description). To me, that dictates the choice.

A "scout rifle" typically means a 5-shot bolt action using a 16"-20" barrel, usually in .308, and possibly rechargable by means of a spare 5-rd mag nearby.

If the "urban situation" is something like a post-Katrina, chaotic civil unrest scenario, with armed packs of looters and no visible LE presence, then my choice is an 5.56 AR over the Scout Rifle, as good as it may be, along with plenty of mags loaded w/ mil-spec ammo. (Not trying to prompt another Katrina/SHTF thread here - really).

IMO, the type of "situation" that occurs determines which weapon is likely to be the most suitable.

 

[DMK]

Personally I find the 9mm AR select fire to be ideal....

Many Police departments used to agree, until they started testing the two rounds side by side. Then they switched to .223 platforms.

Simply, with an AR an officer can stop a fight with one precise shot.

Those who are actually professionally trained with their rifles will use double taps or hammers to COM until the target is down, not single shots, unless at distance or if a very precision shot is required like a hostage situation, but that would probably get done by a sniper with a scoped bolt action .308 if possible.

So then why not a light weight scout rifle? It's fast, more accurate than an AR and can be used in hostage situations with alarming effectiveness. It does not have the firepower that the AR has, but then the AR does not have the accuracy of the Scout...which is why the AR was selected.

AR's can be very accurate.

Now I know about how an AR would be better for building clearing than a scout, but a shottie beats both. And I know how a gang of AK bearing bank robbers would be equally matched by an AR, but cops don't (or shouldn't) spray return fire, so a scout would be better.

The spray and pray argument always bothers me. Just because you have a semi-automatic with 30 rounds, does not mean you should fire as fast as possible. Anyone with any worthwhile training and fire discipline would take precision shots whenever possible, just like he would with a bolt action. He can just make them faster and in fact can fire more than one shot even more accurately than with a bolt action because he doesn't have to manipulate the action, just keep the sights on target and squeeze the trigger. However, if he has to go into a building or otherwise needs to fight up close, he can fire many shots rapidly to increase the terminal effect and stop his the badguy from accomplishing his deadly goal right there, right now.

 

[wanderinwalker]

Sorry, but I find that "accuracy vs. firepower" is meaningless. With a properly barreled and fed AR, you sacrifice no accuracy to a bolt-action Scout-rifle, the .223 round is adequate for dealing with people out to a couple of hundred yards, you have what are IMO superior ergonomics in the AR over the bolt AND the rifle reloads itself. I fail to see any reason to give a patrol officer a 5-10 round bolt rifle in lieu of a shotgun and/or AR-15 variant.

 

[Preacherman]

I think that we're confusing the purpose of the two rifles here.

A Scout rifle (the concept of which I applaud - I have three rifles set up in this configuration, one lever-action .30-30 and two bolt-action .308's) is a general-purpose rifle. It's designed to be short, light, handy, and able to do a multitude of things reasonably well - hunt for deer-size game, provide effective self-defence for an individual, be usable for target practice and training, etc.

An AR15 is a civilian version of a military assault rifle. It's designed for rapid fire (albeit semi-auto rather than full-auto), incapacitation of human targets, and high magazine capacity for situations where more than one assailant has to be dealt with. Its cartridge is far too feeble for any realistic hunting purpose, and it's not exactly a light, handy weapon in its typical LE configuration, weighed down with a red-dot sight or scope, a weapon light, and the kitchen sink.

I think the AR makes a lot of sense for urban LE situations, as it can handle everything from a stray dog to a North Hollywood bank robbery situation. A Scout rifle is probably a better choice for a rural deputy, who might have to put down a deer or cow that's been hit by a car, or engage targets at longer range, but is unlikely to need high-round-count firepower against an urban gang or mob. (Although, of course, if that rural deputy is near the US/Mexican border, anything goes... )

 

[MechAg94]

Well, if you are going to mention lever guns, I would think that would be a good idea. They are cheaper and handier and can be very accurate for the ranges an LEO is likely to need. They can also make fast follow up shots if necessary. Faster than a bolt gun IMO. I would think they are cheap enough that more officers could be equipped with them and easier to train on. The butt stock also makes a good club. I can see a 30/30 lever gun being a good rifle to have. Might be more reliable for the average LEO as well. It should require less maintenance.

I was thinking about that situation on a thread here where a woman was being held hostage and was killed when the bad guy pointed his gun at the LEO's drawing fire from the LEO's. A lever gun might have been accurate enough to make that shot without killing the woman.

 

[444]

First we have to define the term "Scout Rifle". Jeff Cooper was VERY specific in the criteria for a scout rifle and one company made something that was reasonably close to his criteria. To me, that is a scout rifle.
There are other rifles with a forward mounted scope that are...........other rifles with forward mounted scopes: not scout rifles.

Argument #1 is untrue: the scout rifle is not more accurate than an AR15. And, I am talking about any AR15, straight out of the box from any reputable manufacturer.
Argument #1, having a automatic (semi or select fire) HAS to mean that rounds will carelessly be fired downrange is something that I also don't agree with. Police officers in the United States have to account for, and be responsbile for EVERY single round fired. I know for a fact that police officers have been fired from the department because round #6 in a 15 round firefight did not meet the departments SOP for lethal force. EVERY round fired will be examined along with exactly what was happening at the time it was fired. If everything at that exact instant in time wasn't kosher, the officer will be fired.

Now let's get into some of the reasons that AR15s make better patrol rifles than most other rifles and also are better in some situations than shotguns. First and foremost, it is versitile. It can be equiped with conventional scopes, dot optics, iron sights, or night vision devices. Any of which can be switched out in seconds for another choice. It is also very easy to equip the weapon with a light: either visible or IR. It is very easy to equip the rifle with laser: either visible or IR. It is very easy to equip the rifle with a suppressor. It is very easy to equip the rifle with a bipod. It can be configured any way that suits the operator or the tactical situation in seconds with very readily available gear and without any gunsmithing: including changing out the upper receiver to go from a 7.5" barrel to a 24" counter sniper configuration. Any new, cutting edge gadget that comes out is going to be made specifically for the AR15/M16. It is a weapon that is familiar to any military vet that would still be working in law enforcement. Any piece of tactical gear from mag pouches on down the line are specifically made for that platform. The cartridge it fires is ideal for law enforcement missions.

 

[dacat]

Ha hahahahahahahahahaah hahahaha!

Howk, I luv ur style man! Hahahahahahahahahahah.

Btw, AR short with can. Don't waste time with shotties or .30. Hahahahahahahahahahaha!

 

[ClarkEMyers]

Urban tips it to the AR for me

As it happens I have a Steyr Mannlicher true Scout - with the 10 shot extensions in .308 and a Colt 6920 -5.56- to choose from.

For urban I'll go with the Colt 6920 - this assumes a number of things but the AR is I think the better general choice.

Change the assumptions and the choice changes.

As noted above for a rural setting the Scout might well be my first choice and I would never feel underarmed with the Scout. John Dean Cooper - may his health improve and may he live forever - noted repeatedly that a lever based pseudo-scout is a fine choice for city dwellers and so it is.

There is no question in my own mind that the AR invites spray and pray and demands training in the use of the patrol rifle. The Scout might annoy people who don't practice with a bolt rifle - training beyond an annual or semi-annual qualification is good either way.

Maybe the AR should be in 6.8 for best results?

 

[Coronach]

and if he's that good why not hand him a Rem 700 with nice glass and shoo him off to SWAT?

Well, now. I can see that you obviously don't work for the government.

Mike

 

[mrmeval]

Ammo costs are higher.

Maybe the AR should be in 6.8 for best results?

 

[benEzra]

Ideally an officer would go to his truck, pop the lid and there would be a small gun safe full of arms for the correct application, but that is not the situation in most cases. Shotgun/AR up front and visa versa in the trunk.

Now I know about how an AR would be better for building clearing than a scout, but a shottie beats both. And I know how a gang of AK bearing bank robbers would be equally matched by an AR, but cops don't (or shouldn't) spray return fire, so a scout would be better.

So what is the AR? A compromise?

shotguns are the most lethal of all firearms, but less versatile than an AR unless you carry five different kinds of shells for different situations, and there are situations involving distance and armor that an AR can handle that would be a much greater challenge with a shotgun.

The long gun in the officer's trunk or roof rack is for handling situations that the handgun won't handle, and the AR can handle a wider variety of situations than the shotgun. Yes, it's a bit less lethal at closer range, but it gives you more potential range and precision than a shotgun.

A shotgun with buckshot can't really be used in a hostage situation or a situation with lots of bystanders, many active-shooter scenarios, etc., and if the bad guy is 100 yards away, you'll have to switch ammo to slugs before you can even engage him with the shotgun...and then you have to worry about the fact that slugs are among the most overpenetrative of ALL small arms ammunition (check out the Box O'Truth site). If the bad guy is wearing body armor, is shooting from cover, or is 100 yards away shooting at you with a rifle, you need a rifle, not a shotgun. That was one of the lessons of the North Hollywood shootout.

A lever gun might have been accurate enough to make that shot without killing the woman.

An AR is as accurate as any lever gun, and a good AR is more accurate than most lever guns. Also, .30-30 will have much greater penetration in building materials than .223, which may make overpenetration more of a concern.

IMHO the AR is more versatile WRT optics and accessories, the ergonomics are better, and the pistol grip design allows a closer, more squared up shooting position (important if the officer is wearing body armor) and makes the officer a little less likely to be disarmed by a bad guy. The AR is much easier to fit with an adjustable stock to fit people with different-sized arms and to accomodate different body armor thicknesses.

I'm not bashing lever guns, just pointing out why police agencies would typically go with the AR platform.

 

[middy]

Well, now. I can see that you obviously don't work for the government.

Thanks Coronach. I think that's the nicest thing anyone has said to me in months.