Seeking info on open carry

[frankie_the_yankee]

I'm new to this forum. I've learned a few things from doing searches. But I find very little info on open carry other than the thread a couple of weeks ago in the General Discussion section.

From the standpoint of a non-LEO, I am leery of open carry because after "experimenting" with it on a couple of trips to Phoenix, AZ, I became acutely aware tof the possibility of having my gun snatched by a BG in various situations (like standing in line, shopping malls, etc.) where lots of people were around. Part of this is that I am deep into middle age and not very big. Also, I was carrying in my normal concealment rig - an open topped IWB holster with no retention strap. No retention training either.

So a fair number of BG's are likely to think they could wrest the gun away from someone like me pretty easily. In my view, where there is perceived opportunity it is only a matter of time before someone attempts to avail themselves of it.

Give all of the above, I am personally much more comfortable with concealed carry, which I have done for years without drama or incident. Concealment and having tactical surprise seem to be much bigger advantages than any possible deterrent effect of OC and/or being able to draw faster.

But I find myself being taken to task for these views in discussions with some people. People say that OC is "a right" that will be lost if not exercised. (No argument, but that is beside the point.) Others say that my concern for snatches is overblown, as they don't hear of such things happening. Of course, there is the 7/30 incident in Centerville, VA recounted in the thread I referred to above. But another reason why these incidents might be rare is because not all that many people OC in crowded urban settings. At least that has been my experience in my travels around the country. (Obviously snatching would not be expected to be a problem in isolated settings such as in the field or in other lightly populated areas.)

So I am asking people here if they know of any snatchings of guns openly carried by non-LEO's in urban areas. If so, I would appreciate it if you could provide a link to a news media account.

Thanks in advance.

 

[Robert Hairless]

Some information but no links, no documentation, and no real interest, only an observation:

Hairless' Forty-Seventh Rule: "People do not usually attempt to take what they believe one does not have."

As an example, if you do not wear your $12,000 Rolex Presidential wrist watch where it can be seen and if you do not tell anyone you have it there is little likelihood that anyone will try to take it from you.

Of course it is also true that if you don't show it off you might eventually lose the right to show it off, but if you're not showing it off why would you care?

So, as in the rest of life, much depends on your goals. My suggested compromise is that you carry open and let everyone know while I conceal and keep my mouth shut.

If you're openly carrying a gun and someone wants a gun, he knows where there's one he can get.

 

[wheelgunslinger]

They're also likely to think you're a Law Enforcement type individual too.

Worrying about someone grabbing your weapon is a valid fear with open carry. The need to invest in something besides a cheap belt pouch shaped like a handgun from Uncle Mike's is a bit more necessary.
But, with the proper retention holster, situational awareness, and CQB skills, you should be able to OC with confidence.

OC is a right recognized by the law in many states. Might as well enjoy it when you can.

I do it in order to avoid going through the booking process involved in the Concealed Carry permit process.

Works for me.

 

[Mainsail]

It’s actually a lack of recognition that allows it in many states, like Washington.

I wouldn’t use an Uncle Mike’s holster as a coaster for my beer glass. I open carry my Sig 1911 C&L in a Serpa holster. It’s not coming out unless you push the button.

 

[Gary G23]

http://opencarry.com/

Go to the forums for people's stories.

Also check this out:

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=8&f=38&t=281700

 

[Pax Jordana]

(No argument, but that is beside the point.

With all due respect, sir OP, it is beside *your* point.

You might get a little faster draw from an uncovered OWB holster. You can carry a bigger gun comfortably. You can smirk at people and make them uncomfortable in line at wawa. That's not why I (tentatively, we) OC.

You carry a gun to protect yourself and your loved ones, that's that. Hiding it keeps people from knowing it's there. OCing it makes some people (you would be astounded at how few) notice. Then it becomes an exercise in mindfulness - Hopefully, some guy somewhere will say "shoot, he's armed, and he's not afraid of getting hassled by cops or anything.. maybe it's OK to be armed in my own defense."

I hope to carry for the rest of my life without ever having to use it. But on the other hand, while I hope nothing happens, the gun can be used to make a statement too, which it will every time you OC.


Now as far as grabs go, use retention, get some training, carry a BUG concealed if it makes you feel iffy, and by all means use your situational awareness (and your dominant arm's elbow!)

 

[wheelgunslinger]

very eloquently stated, PJ.

 

[frankie_the_yankee]

With all due respect, sir OP, it is beside *your* point.

Sure. My post, my "point", right?

You carry a gun to protect yourself and your loved ones, that's that.

Precisely. But understand that this means that I do not carry it as part of some kind open carry crusade. I'm looking for the most tactical advantage I can get over the bad guys.

From what I can tell so far, OC complicates the tactical situation rather than simplifying it. With OC, one has to be alert to attempted snatches, something that is not an issue with CC. This means retention holsters, retention training, and the ever-present possibility of facing a coordinated attack to get the gun by superior numbers.

Hiding it keeps people from knowing it's there.

Obviously. And knowledge is power. When I CC, I have knowledge that the BG's don't.

OCing it makes some people (you would be astounded at how few) notice.

No I wouldn't. I've OC'd before. Most people don't bother to carefully observe what's gong on around them.

Then it becomes an exercise in mindfulness - Hopefully, some guy somewhere will say "shoot, he's armed, and he's not afraid of getting hassled by cops or anything.. maybe it's OK to be armed in my own defense."

Or maybe he'll say, "Shoot. That guy's got a gun. And he don't look like a cop to me. I'm calling the cops."

I hope to carry for the rest of my life without ever having to use it. But on the other hand, while I hope nothing happens, the gun can be used to make a statement too, which it will every time you OC.

Just hope that statement isn't, "Steal me."

Now as far as grabs go, use retention, get some training, carry a BUG concealed if it makes you feel iffy, and by all means use your situational awareness (and your dominant arm's elbow!)

What a PITA! Again, complications.

Don't get me wrong. I am not opposed to having OC as an option. I simply see tactical complications with OC for someone like me. If I was a lot younger, healthier, bigger, and more skilled in the martial arts, some of those complications might not be so significant.

But I started this thread to get a line on experiences people have had with snatchings or attempted snatchings in crowded urban environments. That's because I have had people tell me that snatchings are just some anti-gun fantasy and that I don't need to worry about it - and I flat out do not believe them. I have OC'd in some situations where my gun could have been easily snatched by a group of people who looked like they might consider trying it. Simple logic tells me that if the opportunity is there, someone will eventually try to take advantage of it.

So far, I have seen nothing that pursuades me otherwiswe.

THR represents a pretty large group. I figure that among the people here, there is some good real world experience I can tap into and add to my own.

 

[Mainsail]

Or maybe he'll say, "Shoot. That guy's got a gun. And he don't look like a cop to me. I'm calling the cops."

So? He calls the cops, so what?

Just hope that statement isn't, "Steal me."

It isn't. It just doesn't happen.

 

[frankie_the_yankee]

Originally Posted by frankie_the_yankee
Or maybe he'll say, "Shoot. That guy's got a gun. And he don't look like a cop to me. I'm calling the cops."

So? He calls the cops, so what?

So my nice evening out gets interrupted by a forced interaction with a cop. That might be OK if I were on a crusade, but I'd rather just go on about my business with no hassles if possible.

Originally Posted by frankie_the_yankee
Just hope that statement isn't, "Steal me."

It isn't. It just doesn't happen.

Well, we know it happened in Centerville, VA this past summer. So your statment seems to be at odds with real world experience.

 

[longwatch]

Here is the incident Frankeetheyankee is referring to.

http://www.fairfaxcounty.gov/police/reports/reports2006/073106robNewtonPatton.htm

Man robbed in the Centreville area


About 4:10 a.m. Sunday, July 30, officers were called to the area of Newton Patent Drive and Newton Tavern Drive. A 21-year-old Centreville-area man was robbed while walking on Newton Patent Drive. Two suspects approached the victim from behind, and placed a metal object up to the victim’s head. The suspects took the victim’s hand gun which he was openly carrying. The suspect’s then fled the area. The victim was not injured.
The suspects were described as black males wearing dark clothing.
Anyone with information about this incident or these suspects is asked to call Crime Solvers at 1-866-411-TIPS (8477) or the police non-emergency number at 703-691-2131.

 

[longwatch]

Personally I don't think one can draw conclusions about the safety of OC in an urban area. I say this because it just doesn't match my experience or that of other OC practitioners I know. BTW I live in the same county as the referenced incident.

 

[Pax Jordana]

Sure. My post, my "point", right?

Devil's advocate, mein freund. By the way, welcome to THR. For future reference, this being a civil board, 'you' is used generally, unless it only makes sense otherwise. None of what i wrote should be considered personal attack.

If you are looking to avoid hassles, and not have to talk to cops all the time, don't OC. No big deal. You need no facts to back up your own preference, as it is your preference, and stating the fact that you prefer it will only serve to make it tautological!! So next time someone "takes you to task," simply say you prefer CC, and are more comfortable with it, and unless your counterpart is a total jerk, that will be that.

All that said (boy I'd love a cold glass of water right about now) the gun snatching in VA is the first I've ever heard of that happening. I'd assume that many more guns are stolen when their owners are absent. hrrmph.

 

[J. Parker]

Open carry legal or not where you frequent is just looking for trouble. The best way to "exercise" your rights? Keep it concealed. Open carry? The bad guys see it as easy pickin's, the cops give you a second look and civilians freak out. What are you accomplishing?

 

[RevolvingCylinder]

What a PITA! Again, complications.

Actually situation awareness is vital when carrying concealed as well. Weapons retention could come in handy too especially when you don't use situational awareness and a mugger searches for loot on your person. If situational awareness is used then OC or CC is a moot point but it situational awareness is not used, your CC is useless to you. If you don't think you can end up like the man above you're sadly mistaken. Criminals look for people to prey on based on their lack of showing situational awareness(appear unaware). They do not see anyone carrying openly while aware as an easy target. Quite the opposite. They actually see the weapon and showing awareness as a threat and steer clear away. Then it becomes a deterrent. Yet again, awareness is key. Awareness is always key to self defense.

 

[longwatch]

Tactically I think open carry does have a deterrent value, criminals rarely choose to attack armed victims.

Because of certain restrictions on concealed carry in Virginia, OC allows me to be armed in places where I cannot carry concealed. We have a restaurant ban in Virginia which forbids ccw in a restaurant that serves alcohol. The permit holders choice is to leave their gun in their car (where they have been stolen in several cases) or open carry. I choose to OC and out of at least a hundred times doing so have only had one occasion with a problem.

Are there other advantages of OC? Well open carry can also allow one to opt out of the gun owner registration scheme called the Concealed Handgun Permit. Also in my opinion, CHPs no matter how freely given, do not represent the exercise of a right, rather the exercise of a priviledge that one had to pay the government for.

Open Carry allows people who cannot get a permit (example those under 21) the ability to defend themselves. Because of open carry's legality, a permit holder doesn't have to live in fear of printing or accidentally exposing his pistol.

Open Carry also allows the public to put a face on gun owners, and lets others see that it just isn't criminal and cops who can carry.

I'll be the first to say that OC isn't for everyone. One may very well have a visit from the local police. If one can't handle that don't OC. However with few exceptions the police around NOVA do know it is legal, they mostly come because if they are called they will respond. It is not something one can be lawfully arrested for. In all likelihood, no police will bother you, and I have often been in their presence openly armed with no interaction at all. As the saying goes YMMV but I don't think my experience is unique in Virginia at all.

 

[JohnKSa]

All that said (boy I'd love a cold glass of water right about now) the gun snatching in VA is the first I've ever heard of that happening. I'd assume that many more guns are stolen when their owners are absent.

Gun store robberies are not uncommon in spite of the fact that clerks are almost invariably armed.

But yes, it's rare for an OC'er to have his gun grabbed. First of all, OC is not legal in most urban areas. Second, even when it is, it's not common. But all that's irrelevant.

1. We ALL know that guns are highly desirable theft/robbery items.
2. We ALL know that gun stores are held up in spite of armed clerks.
3. We ALL know (now) that at least one OC'er HAS had his gun stolen--which is what common sense ALREADY told us was a real possibility.

The bottom line is that the single incident changes nothing except it shuts up the people who were persisting in the obviously mistaken belief that the fact that a cite was not forthcoming was evidence that it: 1. Had never happened. 2. Wasn't a real concern.

Besides the obvious tactical disadvantages of OC, it can also turn the OC'er into a target--the very item he thinks is a crime deterrent can make him an attractive target to robbers. In the incident mentioned, they didn't even need to resort to shooting the OC'er to take his gun. Instead of deterring crime by OC'ing, his OC'ing put a firearm into criminal hands and made him the victim of violent crime.

None of which should come as a surprise to anyone who keeps up with the news.

BTW, I'm not anti-OC. I don't think its generally a good idea from a tactics standpoint, but I do think it should be legal everywhere and I think it does have a place. If it were legal here, there are certain circumstances under which I might OC. As it stands it's not an option for me.

 

[longwatch]

Lets not assume to much from a single incident. We are missing a lot of facts. Its possible his OC made him a target or he may have been targeted because he was the only one around at 4am and the criminals didn't know he was armed because they couldn't see his weapon until they were on him. If he was concealed carrying it's conceivable that the situation would have played and ended the same way, with a stolen gun.

ETA: Which was the more risky behavior in this incident, open carry or a possible lack of situational awareness (evidenced by the 2 criminals being able to get to the carrier from behind)?

 

[ArfinGreebly]

Safety In Numbers

Having never open-carried, I'm mostly musing out loud.

It seems to me that a twosome doing OC would be much less at risk. A threesome even more so. And a foursome even moresome.

That's not to suggest that one should form a gang to strut around showin' off they's leather.

OC would be the sort of thing you would expect in a society where gun ownership is unremarkable. Heck, it would almost be an accessory. "What leather for formal wear?"

But, as has already been pointed out, you really have to be aware of your surroundings.

When only one guy carries, he can be a target. When a larger group carries, somehow I don't imagine "target rich environment" is the first thing through a BG's mind.

 

[longwatch]

Biggest group of open carriers I ever saw in public was more than 100, felt pretty safe that day.

 

[TallPine]

I don't understand what the big deal is ???

If you want to CC, then do it. If you want to OC, then do it. Advantages and disadvantages to both.

No sense arguing about it.

 

[frankie_the_yankee]

longwatch writes: Tactically I think open carry does have a deterrent value, criminals rarely choose to attack armed victims.

I think it cuts two ways. It can be a deterrent, but it can also rpresent an opportunity.

Because of certain restrictions on concealed carry in Virginia, OC allows me to be armed in places where I cannot carry concealed. We have a restaurant ban in Virginia which forbids ccw in a restaurant that serves alcohol. The permit holders choice is to leave their gun in their car (where they have been stolen in several cases) or open carry. I choose to OC and out of at least a hundred times doing so have only had one occasion with a problem.

And what kind of problem was that? I'm curious.

Because of open carry's legality, a permit holder doesn't have to live in fear of printing or accidentally exposing his pistol.

I agree that this is a definite benefit. That's why I favor OC being legal even though I think it has tactical drawbacks.

Open Carry also allows the public to put a face on gun owners, and lets others see that it just isn't criminal and cops who can carry.

Again, we get into the "carrying vs. crusading" thing. I carry for protection. I have no interest in running a personal crusade. I will leave that to others.

I'll be the first to say that OC isn't for everyone. One may very well have a visit from the local police. If one can't handle that don't OC.

This is a big drawback in my book.

Thanks for your inputs.

RevolvingCylinder writes: Actually situation awareness is vital when carrying concealed as well.

Sure, but when OC-ing you have a lot more things that you need to keep track of.

Weapons retention could come in handy too especially when you don't use situational awareness and a mugger searches for loot on your person.

If it gets to that point, you're in a heap of trouble regardless. And if you are OC-ing, he doesn't have to search. If he gets the drop on you, he goes for the gun right away.

Criminals look for people to prey on based on their lack of showing situational awareness(appear unaware). They do not see anyone carrying openly while aware as an easy target. Quite the opposite. They actually see the weapon and showing awareness as a threat and steer clear away. Then it becomes a deterrent. Yet again, awareness is key. Awareness is always key to self defense.

Yes. But there are situations that are awkward to avoid. I can be "aware" of the 4 big guys standing behind me in line at Mickey-D's, and they could grab the gun anyway. "Don't go there.", someone says? Problem is, I want a burger. So I need to go there.

I'm not going to go around town all puckered up like a frightened turtle worried that someone's gonna grab my gun. Nor do I want to burden myself with some elaborate retention rig. And these days I am not physically capable of going very far with martial arts training.

So my approach is to avoid those hassles by carrying concealed.

So far, all I see with OC-ing are some added risks with very little in the way of benefits.

 

[frankie_the_yankee]

ArfinGreebly writes:

Having never open-carried, I'm mostly musing out loud.

It seems to me that a twosome doing OC would be much less at risk. A threesome even more so. And a foursome even moresome.

That's not to suggest that one should form a gang to strut around showin' off they's leather.

OC would be the sort of thing you would expect in a society where gun ownership is unremarkable. Heck, it would almost be an accessory. "What leather for formal wear?"

But, as has already been pointed out, you really have to be aware of your surroundings.

When only one guy carries, he can be a target. When a larger group carries, somehow I don't imagine "target rich environment" is the first thing through a BG's mind.

In our society, carrying guns is NOT "unremarkable". So when someone OC's, they should expect some attention from the police - even if due to simple ignorance of the law.

From a tactical standpoint, I'd say you have nailed it. OC-ing in a group would be a HUGE deterrent to any sort of criminal attack.

 

[Mainsail]

The best way to "exercise" your rights? Keep it concealed. Open carry? The bad guys see it as easy pickin's, the cops give you a second look and civilians freak out. What are you accomplishing?

I’ve openly carried a pistol through the teeming masses in downtown Seattle on several occasions, as has several of my friends. I was never targeted by any bad guys (or girls) as ‘easy pickin’s, was not hassled by the police, and not one single person freaked out.

What am I accomplishing? I’m protecting myself and the person I’m with. After all, a gun on my belt is better than one left at home in the safe because it was too warm to wear an over shirt. I am also proving to many liberals, who get their firearms education from the media, that gun owners are friendly and safe folks to be around.

Contrary to your statement, concealed carry is NOT the best way to protect my firearms rights and I cannot fathom the logic behind that statement. You request a license, submit your fingerprints to the government, pay $60, and must hand over your papers to a government official when asked, all to exercise a right? That’s protecting your rights? Open carry requires no permits, permission, justification, or identification.

 

[WayneConrad]

I open carry every day. In one of the largest cities in the US. Supermarkets, Wally-Mart, even my optometrist. I've been doing this for years. No problems. No run-ins with police, no targeting by bad guys. No women faint and no children cry.

Now, one fellow with no problems is scant data. But it's data. Do you have data, or just fear?