Seeking info on open carry

[WayneConrad]

I don't think there's no tactical difference. I think that the difference is so small that it does not matter. It's on the level of "should I stand over here or over there to keep the asteroid from hitting me?" It doesn't matter--odds of you getting smacked by an asteroid, while non-zero, are pretty small.

I have a pointy question for those who admit that open carry may be a useful political tool but carry concealed out of a perceived tactical advantage: Why is a small advantage in personal safety more important to you than liberty?

 

[Mainsail]

Just another quick point. When we were arguing for the privilege of carrying a concealed firearm, one of the often used advantages that were cited was that in studies, criminals preferred unarmed victims. Recent FBI studies confirmed that very thing.

Kinda duplicitous don’t you think?

 

[JohnKSa]

Unfortunately for your argument, other than one really ambiguous 4 am robbery, it just doesn’t happen that way.

It does happen that way. I linked to an article by Massad Ayoob which describes several situations where OC gun store clerks/operators had guns grabbed from them. The robbery you mentioned is, at the moment, the only DOCUMENTED case of its kind that we know of. But that is NOT the same as saying it's the only time that has ever happened--not every police department puts all their reports online.

Again, this is a case of the initial assumption (people are never targeted for OC'ing) driving the conclusion (it never happens that way).

criminals preferred unarmed victims. Recent FBI studies confirmed that very thing.

Kinda duplicitous don’t you think?

Ok, in the interest of being straightforward and above board (we wouldn't want any duplicity on this thread) why didn't you post the figures?

Here's a report that says that 57% of criminals were frightened by an armed citizen and that 53% said that they would not commit a crime if they believed the victim was armed.

That means that 43% of criminals did NOT indicate they were frightened by an armed citizen and that 47% of them did NOT indicate that an armed victim would deter them from committing a crime.

So while a small majority of criminals prefer unarmed victims, nearly half of them (47%) seem to be willing to proceed with the crime even if the victim is armed.

It doesn't matter--odds of you getting smacked by an asteroid, while non-zero, are pretty small.

This thread has linked to several documented cases of OC'ers being robbed of their guns or having pre-emptive action taken against them. Since you think asteroids pose a similar threat, I think it's only fair that you post several documented cases of death by asteroid.

Is it just me or does it seem like the people most opposed to open carry are people who live where it’s illegal and thus don’t OC or have never OCd?

I'm not opposed to open carry and I've said so both on this thread and others. What I'm opposed to is the aggressive "marketing" of OC--primarily the assertion that there are no disadvantages compared to other carry options.

 

[Mainsail]

The problem is that you (collective you) have built a box; you’re looking at only one very remote possibility, and refusing to consider other, more realistic, situations, and thus losing sight of the forest amongst the trees. There are countless settings where a firearm may be employed to save your or someone else’s life.

People are targeted by criminals for any number of reasons; race, sex, perceived wealth, etc., but that doesn’t mean they should paint their skin a different color, stuff a sock in their crotch, or dress like a vagabond. They simply ensure that if they’re in a place where those triggers could mark them for crime, they raise their level of situational awareness to an appropriate level.

There’s a reason criminals look around before they commit their crimes, they want to make sure their activity will go unchallenged. If they see a uniformed police officer, they will reschedule their endeavor for another time or place. The same goes for you or me standing there with a firearm on our belt (and we’re often mistaken for police). If I’m standing in line and several gang-bangers are behind me, it’s little inconvenience for me to walk over to the cooler and pick up a bottle of coke, thus putting me at the end of the line.

(I’m reminded of a small town that put out a real police car with a fake cop (mannequin) behind the wheel; parked where it was known that people were speeding. It worked tremendously well, up until someone that needed help complained she was ignored by the cop.)

Feel free to keep beating that dead horse scenario- that you will be a target to some crook looking for a free gun- while ignoring every other positive and reality based argument the OC side has presented. While I may disagree with your (again, collective you) debate skills, I won’t fault your beliefs or your passion.

I think in the end we’ll just have to agree to disagree. I believe, and believe strongly, that OC is a real and effective deterrent to crime. I also believe that having a firearm on my belt is better than one left at home because it was too warm out to hide it. I’m proud to live in the only country that trusts its citizens to responsibly carry a firearm, openly or concealed.

 

[JohnKSa]

There are countless settings where a firearm may be employed to save your or someone else’s life.

I've never denied that, nor have I said that open carry is always a bad idea. I've simply pointed out that it can make the OC'er a target and can limit his response options and have responded to flawed arguments to the contrary.

Feel free to keep beating that dead horse scenario- that you will be a target to some crook looking for a free gun- while ignoring every other positive and reality based argument the OC side has presented.

It's hardly a "dead horse", it is reality for several people whose cases are documented on this thread and, no doubt, for others whose cases aren't documented online.

I have not ignored anything, and I've even said that OC is an option that I would probably use on occasion if it becomes legal here.

I believe, and believe strongly, that OC is a real and effective deterrent to crime.

The study shows that around half of all criminals would be deterred by it, so I think you are exactly correct.

However, it's important to understand the risks of being openly armed given that around half of the criminals surveyed did NOT say that an armed victim would deter them.

I'm not saying that there's no deterrent, I am saying that there's risk that goes along with the deterrent and that risk should not be ignored or discounted.

I’m proud to live in the only country that trusts its citizens to responsibly carry a firearm, openly or concealed.

Likewise!

 

[frankie_the_yankee]

Mainsail writes: If I’m standing in line and several gang-bangers are behind me, it’s little inconvenience for me to walk over to the cooler and pick up a bottle of coke, thus putting me at the end of the line.

So in other words, if you're standing in line OC-ing and 4 bangers get in line behind you, you get all puckered up like a frightened turtle and head for the Coke cooler to get yourself and your OC'd gun the heck out of there before they overpower you and snatch your gun.

Meanwhile, I'm CC-ing in the same line, aware of the bangers' presence, as I calmly pay for my stuff and leave. They ignore me, as there is nothing to make me stand out from the others present.

Get it?

And you didn't answer my question. Why should I risk my life on the basis of your opinion that OC does not carry any tactical disadvantages?

Also, do not count me among those who have never OC'd. While I live in TX where it is presently illegal, I have stated that I have visited Phoenix several times and that I have OC'd there. My experiences there form the basis of my opinions on OC in urban areas.

That and inductive and deductive logic and "common sense".

Criminals may be cowards, but they are also opportunists. Poeple who think that you can present criminals with opportunities and that they will proceed to ignore them are dreaming in my view.

Ever see that TV show where cops rig a car with cameras and a fuel shutoff, and then leave the keys in it? Then they wait for BG's to try to steal it.

You present an opportunity to people, SOMEONE will decide to take it.

For those who believe otherwise, all I can say is, "Take care."

 

[Mainsail]

So in other words, if you're standing in line OC-ing and 4 bangers get in line behind you, you get all puckered up like a frightened turtle and head for the Coke cooler to get yourself and your OC'd gun the heck out of there before they overpower you and snatch your gun.

Poor form dude. No, I don’t get all puckered up like a frightened turtle; I exercise prudence if I feel there is a threat present and act accordingly. By your argument, you’ve already arrived pre-puckered and cowardly hid your carry weapon.

Meanwhile, I'm CC-ing in the same line, aware of the bangers' presence, as I calmly pay for my stuff and leave. They ignore me, as there is nothing to make me stand out from the others present.

No, they ignore you because you’ve misjudged them based on stereotypes, and they’re just regular citizens with no intent on robbing anyone. Even if they are intent on robbing the store, they’re behind you, so you’ve already failed to properly assess the situation. Now you’re just the first bullet trap between them and the cash register.

And you didn't answer my question. Why should I risk my life on the basis of your opinion that OC does not carry any tactical disadvantages?

Nobody is asking you to! You are looking at this in absolutes, either you CC or OC, but fail to realize that in an OC friendly atmosphere (like WA or VA or AZ) you have twice the options you do in TX. I can carry open, I can also carry concealed. I can enter a restaurant CCing, take off my jacket and carry openly.

Ever see that TV show where cops rig a car with cameras and a fuel shutoff, and then leave the keys in it? Then they wait for BG's to try to steal it.

Bad analogy. The car isn’t occupied. Say they left the keys in it and sat me in the back seat with my Mossberg 590. Will those same BGs steal it?

 

[Mainsail]

Meanwhile, I'm CC-ing in the same line, aware of the bangers' presence, as I calmly pay for my stuff and leave. They ignore me, as there is nothing to make me stand out from the others present.

Actually, this sounds like a Sara Brady argument, that guns cause crime. I’m in line and the visible presence of my firearm is going to cause someone to commit a crime they would not have otherwise attempted. By your logic, one could argue that not having a weapon at all would actually reduce crime. After all, you cannot be sure these gang bangers don’t notice your concealed firearm, right. So you would actually be safer (by your argument) if you weren’t armed at all.

 

[JohnKSa]

I’m in line and the visible presence of my firearm is going to cause someone to commit a crime they would not have otherwise attempted.

You said that as an OC'er you would move out of line (to protect yourself from a possible gun snatch?).

If you don't think that a gun snatch is an issue, then what's the point of your moving to the rear of the line? If you do think it's an issue then why are you complaining that frankie agrees with you?

After all, you cannot be sure these gang bangers don’t notice your concealed firearm, right.

Speaking for myself: "Yes, I can be sure that they didn't notice my concealed firearm."

puckered up like a frightened turtle

This was a clause that frankie used in his initial post as an example of what he didn't want to find himself doing. It was not aimed at you, he was merely continuing the theme of the thread.

 

[Flintknapper]

puckered up like a frightened turtle

JohnKSa wrote:

This was a clause that frankie used in his initial post as an example of what he didn't want to find himself doing. It was not aimed at you, he was merely continuing the theme of the thread.

Actually, in other posts you are probably not aware of, it was aimed at others. He's been using his clever little jingle long before he got here.


Frankie wrote:

And when they do, in places where other people are around, they spend the whole time puckered up like a frightened turtle and heave a sigh of relief when they get home without having the gun snatched.

in general walk around town all puckered up like a frightened turtle worried that someone might try to snatch their gun.

So in other words, if you're standing in line OC-ing and 4 bangers get in line behind you, you get all puckered up like a frightened turtle

I'm not going to go around town all puckered up like a frightened turtle worried that someone's gonna grab my gun. Nor do I want to burden myself with some elaborate retention rig. And these days I am not physically capable of going very far with martial arts training.

I don't want to have to walk around town "all puckered up like a frightened turtle" (to coin a phrase). I'd rather have an ace in the hole.

Hey, I still think it is a good line. Feel free to use it yourself any time you want.

Okie Dokie!


I think I know now where it stems from:

Frankie Wrote:

All I will say is, walk into an urban quickie mart full of BG types while carrying openly in a non-retention type holster, and then talk to me about it. I've been there, I have the teeshirt, and I'm working on the book deal

I've been in one of "those situations" while openly carrying in Phoenix. (I was visiting and did it as sort of an experiment.) Too much drama for me. I would have been much more comfortable carrying concealed.

And you can run into a "crowd" at a convenience store or a Mickey-D's. It doesn't take too many people to form a "crowd" if they are the wrong kind of people (i.e. street punk types) and they are behind you.

So all I can tell you is to visit a bad area in Phoenix and openly carry in a non-retention holster while touring area quickie marts and other places where gangsta types might congregate

I wonder if he has ever open carried in the middle of the ghetto in a big city in an open topped holster surrounded by 4 gangsta type people who were twice as big as he was and a lot younger

I have open carried for a couple of days in Phoenix. I experienced some drama that would never had happened if I was carrying concealed.

Scenario 3: You're in a convenience store OC-ing and standing in line to pay for your purchases. Behind you are 4 gangsta types, much larger than you who notice your gun in its open-topped holster. They realize that they can easily ambush and overpower you, take the gun and make their escape before anyone else present can do anything.

BTW, I'm not making this one up. I lived through it, all except the snatch attempt. For whatever reason, they decided not to go through with it - THAT time.

In a nutshell, Frankie got "puckered up like a frightened turtle" one time and has never forgotten it. So, because of that...no one else should EVER carry openly in urban areas.


And he certainly entered this discussion with an open mind:

Frankie Wrote:

Armed citizens do not need to carry openly. They do not need to take on the added risk. That being the case, IMO it is foolish to do so.

I'd say that people might get shot with their own guns if they are carrying openly.

It ain't my problem if someone gets their darn fool head blown off.

I open carry on my ranch. I think it is stupid to do so in a crowded urban environment.

I merely think it is D-U-M-B to carry openly in an urban environment.

Don't make me laugh. I wouldn't trust anything I saw on that website.

 

[frankie_the_yankee]

Nice summary, Flint.

Basically, it is obvious to me that OC has tactical disadvantages, and I have heard or read nothing so far that even remotely comes close to changing my mind.

And I share JohnKsa's opinion about the practice of aggressively pushing OC that some engage in. Frankly, most of the "arguments" are absurd.

In your poll, 3 people (out of what, 70 or so?) have admitted to snatches or attempted snatches. That's more than enough for me. This is life and death we are talking about here, not some kind of game.

No one has answered my question. Would you get on an airplane (wartime missions excepted) if there was a 3/70 chance that it was gonna crash?

From what I can tell, what the OC proponents call "situational awareness" seems a lot like "getting all puckered up like a frightened turtle". That's why I keep using the line. It's a good line, and it fits like a glove. Moving away when people get close, keeping one's head "on a swivel", etc. Who wants or needs to go around town like that?

What's absurd is the way OC proponents claim there is no significant tactical difference between CC and OC, yet they readily admit to engaging in these strange behaviors when out in crowded areas, when the only rational purpose of these behaviors is to minimize the chances of a snatch.

And as I have said many times, I favor OC being available as a legal option. I just would not elect to do it myself in urban environments.

So like I said, OC all you want, guys. Dive right into that crowd. "Surf" through the mosh pit if that is your thing. Educate the general public. When it comes to establishing the legal right, you have my full support.

But don't come complaining to me if some BG snatches your gun and/or blows your brains out with it, or someone else's. 'Cause I'll just say, "Hey, I told you so!"

 

[Flintknapper]

Frankie wrote:

In your poll, 3 people (out of what, 70 or so?) have admitted to snatches or attempted snatches. That's more than enough for me. This is life and death we are talking about here, not some kind of game.

No one has answered my question. Would you get on an airplane (wartime missions excepted) if there was a 3/70 chance that it was gonna crash?

Frankie,

If you are in a plane crash...yours odds of survival are pretty much zilch. IF your gun were snatched, that is probably all you will lose besides your wallet. Not one single incident you provided involved the death of the person who was "snatched". If they had been killed they certainly wouldn't have posted here would they? Where do you come up with these analogies?

In the polls ONE person on OpenCarry said he had his gun snatched. On this site THREE people make the claim. Have you noticed that on neither site...has anyone voting that way entered their name or made a comment?

Not even the ones saying they don't carry out of fear of being snatched. Isn't that odd? Now, I said from the beginning that I would accept all votes because I have no way of verifying them. That is fine.

Currently on THR we have 78 reporting no problem. 3 say they have been snatched.
On OpenCarry the numbers are: 70 reporting no problems. 1 says snatched.

We can add the four that reported being snatched to the ones that carried in urban areas, along with the 7 on the tape that was posted. That will bring us to 159 to 4. I am sure I could find at least a dozen more here:

http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum54/18.html
http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum54/79.html
http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum54/3427.html
http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum54/3995.html

Do you see the trend?

Despite the small sample base (deemed imperfect by me many times), the numbers are plain. Every person will need to assess the risk factor for themselves.

Heck, if one a million is too much for YOU, fine don't OC. But don't present your argument as (certain death) if a person carries openly in urban areas.

We really need to let this die. This is the third time this OC thing has come up. It has gone off on so many tangents I can't even keep up with them all.

You repeatedly challenged anyone for numbers/statistics/events. I have tried my best to accommodate you.

Do what you wish with the numbers above.

Thank you for your participation and thoughts.

Flint.

 

[JohnKSa]

Not one single incident you provided involved the death of the person who was "snatched". If they had been killed they certainly wouldn't have posted here would they?

Wow! You seriously don't see how circular this is?

Sadly, this is typical of the reasoning I've seen to justify the arguments that OC doesn't have any significant disadvantages.

 

[Flintknapper]

Wow! You seriously don't see how circular this is?

Sadly, this is typical of the reasoning I've seen to justify the arguments that OC doesn't have any significant disadvantages.

Hi John,

You probably remember the first thread concerning this issue. It was posted on: http://www.texasshooting.com/TexasCHL_Forum/index.php

You are a respected member there and even participated in the first "go round".

If you would like to revisit that thread, AND the newest one AND the one at OpenCarry in addition to this one....then, I will consider you qualified to tell me what "circular" is.

Of course, OC has advantages and disadvantages, that has NEVER been argued by me.

I believe the poll has pretty much run it's course and I have expressed my appreciation to all who participated in it. I value your position, comments and thoughts as much as the others.

I will continue to visit here in hopes that I may learn something new concerning both Open and Concealed carry.

Thanks again for your time.

Flint.

 

[JohnKSa]

If you would like to revisit that thread, AND the newest one AND the one at OpenCarry in addition to this one....then, I will consider you qualified to tell me what "circular" is.

I re-read my post on the TX CHL forum, that was around 2 years ago. It looks like (not surprisingly) I posted exactly the same opinion I posted here. I've never posted on OpenCarry.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I have no idea what you mean by this statement...

I love that picture, but I so rarely get the chance to use it!

 

[Big45]

So I am asking people here if they know of any snatchings of guns openly carried by non-LEO's in urban areas.

I know of no snatchings of guns openly carried by non-LEO's in urban areas.


I am assuming it would be a very rare occurence because to my knowledge not many urban areas allow non-LEO's to openly carry and if they do, not many people would choose to.

 

[Flintknapper]

Hi John,

Flintknapper wrote:

Friend, aren't we just going to end up right back here:

http://www.texasshooting.com/TexasC...postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=open+carry

(only with a different audience)?

________________________________________

frankie_the_yankee wrote:

Sure, I might have been a little sarcastic here and there in expressing this. But the truth is that I was amazed that anyone would argue with the idea that if you are standing in line at Mickey-D's with a group of 5 gangsta types behind you, that are twice as big as you, that it might be better for you if they didn't know you were packing than if you had a cocked & locked 1911 sticking out of a small of the back holster with no retention strap.

flintknapper wrote:

I don't remember anyone arguing any such thing. Certainly...open carry in the wrong environment could present an opportunity for someone to grab your weapon. It wouldn't even have to be BG/Thug/Gansta Type. A curious child could do it.

An extra level of awareness and a willingness to remove yourself from an area of threat might sometimes be needed. The vast majority of Texas is not a crowded urban area....so I don't understand your fixation on that. I know for a fact that Smithville doesn't fit the bill. I spent most of my life in Austin (30 miles NW of you) and visited Smithville regularly.

What IS being argued... is that many people in MOST parts of the State might well benefit from an open carry option. You seem to want to labor the idea that under some circumstances (crowded urban setting swelling with BG's) that open carry might not be the best idea. No revelation there.

I think your narrow position on Open Carry serves only to "Throw the baby out with the bath water". Sorry for the idiom.

Again, no one is arguing that an open carried weapon "could not" be snatched under certain circumstances. Likewise....no one has suggested that it is the perfect way to carry all the time (no method is).

I am simply asking you to consider the probability of a weapon being taken from ALL people, under ALL conditions...STATEWIDE. I believe it would be a rare event.

frankie_the_yankee wrote:

That works for me.
Maybe it's just me, but the tone of your post seems more "reasoned" and less "shrill" than some previous posts. Maybe some of mine were on the shrill side themselves.

Ruffled feathers and all that.

While living in Smithville, I spend a lot of time in Austin. So the urban angle is a big deal for me. And my Phoenix experiences clearly demonstrated to me that there are times and places where concealed carry is clearly better.

But I will freely acknowledge that there are times and places, mostly in rural settings IMO, where open carry is at least as good and maybe more comfortable. So if open carry were proposed for TX I would support it.

In Austin, I'd still carry concealed.
_________________
Ahm jus' a Southern boy trapped in a Yankee's body

As you can see… Frankie posted “Open Carry claims another victim”, well… turns out it’s a struggle between a cop and a perp. (has nothing to do with OC).

Everyone banters it back and forth and you see the positions that were settled upon above.

But, that was not good enough, here we go again:

http://www.texasshooting.com/TexasCHL_Forum/viewtopic.php?t=10360&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

Frankie is NOT the author of this one, but quickly takes it right back where we were the first time. Even though he had just stated in the last thread “That works for me”.

He wouldn’t participate in the one over at OpenCarry because they hurt his feelings:

http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum7/4983.html

So he comes over here to perpetuate the same thing:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=306730

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=307098

So, its “Circular” in a different context than you posted. I thought you’d catch that, but I should have made it clear.


Off the subject: Is that a recent picture… or were you younger when that was taken?

Here is one of me, excuse me if I look a bit “puckered and frightened”.

Regards, Flint.

 

[frankie_the_yankee]

Big45 writes: I am assuming it would be a very rare occurence because to my knowledge not many urban areas allow non-LEO's to openly carry and if they do, not many people would choose to.

Several have expressed this obvious truth, including me.

When I did it, I was set upon by a number of OC advocates who assured me that "they OC'd" in urban areas and that it was not uncommon for others to do so as well.

Of course in my 57 years that have involved travel to many urban areas in OC states I had seen only 2 people OC'ing. So I knew that the OC advocates who were pushing this line were full of baloney.

What I say is go to any urban area and count up the number of people wearing shoes. You will quickly find that wearing shoes is common.

Then count the number of people you see eating in fast food places. Another common activity.

How many people do you see wearing blue jeans? A lot, right? Wearing blue jeans is pretty common.

Now tell me how many people you see OC'ing.

Like I said, rare.

But even so, we have 3 people on this board out of 70+ that report that they have had snatches or snatch attempts. (I'm referencing the poll in the General section.)

That's WAY TOO MANY for my taste.

I'm thinking about starting a poll asking how many people CC in urban areas, and how many have had their guns snatched or attempted to be snatched.

I'll bet that A LOT MORE people CC in urban areas than OC. And I'd be surprised if ANY of them will report snatches or attempts.

 

[JohnKSa]

Is that a recent picture… or were you younger when that was taken?

That was from before my untimely death...

 

[frankie_the_yankee]

Flint,

Where did you get that picture of the puckered up turtle? It's priceless!

 

[frankie_the_yankee]

WayneConrad writes: I have a pointy question for those who admit that open carry may be a useful political tool but carry concealed out of a perceived tactical advantage: Why is a small advantage in personal safety more important to you than liberty?

Because the reason that I carry is to enhance my personal safety. I have plenty of liberty already. My main concern is being able to stick around to enjoy it.

 

[yesit'sloaded]

Common sense ( or not so common sense now I guess) is all you need to decide the answer. I would open carry in a rural area or a place where I felt comfortable doing it (situational awareness is key here). I might OC and then CC or the opposite depending on where I am. OC on the hiking trail and CC in the mall. CC in the parking lot and OC in the restaurant. Depends on what you feel is prudent.

 

[frankie_the_yankee]

yesit'sloaded writes: Common sense ( or not so common sense now I guess) is all you need to decide the answer. I would open carry in a rural area or a place where I felt comfortable doing it (situational awareness is key here). I might OC and then CC or the opposite depending on where I am. OC on the hiking trail and CC in the mall. CC in the parking lot and OC in the restaurant. Depends on what you feel is prudent.

I agree.

 

[yesit'sloaded]

I left out...always OC your biggest shiniest gun at the gunshow to prove how much of a man you are

 

[tegemu]

IMHO it blares "Shoot me first!"