Seeking info on open carry

[frankie_the_yankee]

WayneConrad writes: I open carry every day. In one of the largest cities in the US. Supermarkets, Wally-Mart, even my optometrist. I've been doing this for years. No problems. No run-ins with police, no targeting by bad guys. No women faint and no children cry.

AZ is probably the most OC-friendly state in the USA. Open carry has been legal there forever, and virtually everyone knows it. So I would not expect adverse reactions there from either the cops or the general public.

I have OC'd in Phoenix myself when visiting.

Now, one fellow with no problems is scant data. But it's data. Do you have data, or just fear?

Some data, and some basic logic.

An OC'er had his gun snatched in Centerville, VA this past summer. So we know that it happens once in a while.

I personally experienced the realization that the 4 gangtsa type individuals surrounding me in a Phoenix quickie mart one night could have easily overpowered me and taken my gun (from its open topped IWB holster) had they put their minds to it. All I could do as I paid for my stuff was keep my strong side arm right over my gun and hope that nothing happened. Luckily, nothing did.

It is just common sense that if one presents an opportunity, and it looks like there would be good prospects of success, someone one day may decide to take advantage of it. That's not "fear", just common sense.

Is it "fear" that makes you lock your car or house?

 

[wheelgunslinger]

Uh, Mr. Yankee, you're getting answers. You just don't seem interested in processing them.
Or, am I wrong here?
(read to the end, sil vous plait)

Contrary to your statement, concealed carry is NOT the best way to protect my firearms rights and I cannot fathom the logic behind that statement. You request a license, submit your fingerprints to the government, pay $60, and must hand over your papers to a government official when asked, all to exercise a right? That’s protecting your rights? Open carry requires no permits, permission, justification, or identification.

I open carry every day. In one of the largest cities in the US. Supermarkets, Wally-Mart, even my optometrist. I've been doing this for years. No problems. No run-ins with police, no targeting by bad guys. No women faint and no children cry.

Now, one fellow with no problems is scant data. But it's data. Do you have data, or just fear?

Biggest group of open carriers I ever saw in public was more than 100, felt pretty safe that day.

Lots of good anecdotes here.

 

[Pax Jordana]

Bah, we're turning this thread into a revival.

It's a matter of taste, and circumstance. As is justifiability of self-defense in any incident. Or what gun to carry.


Me, I'm young, quite fit, relatively trained. I've OC'd all around the suburbs of Philadelphia, and have not yet had a negative experience. Conversely, I refuse to OC (or go unarmed) in the city itself. No cops have been called on me while OCing. Heck, once a guy started babbling to his wife right behind me in line that *I* must be a cop on some manner of undercover job. I have only been in one situation thus far where I felt my physical well-being was in grave danger, and I got out of it using my brain. I often travel with friends who, if not carrying a gun, have at least a knife or adequate knowledge of hand-to-hand (or, in some cases, enough heart to pull off a bit of brawling ) I hope to do some small part by carrying my gun visibly and being friendly all the while.

Thus, I have decided that OC in my usual areas of travel is a viable idea.

Frankie, you have said yourself you're no spring chicken. You've mentioned at least one situation where you were outnumbered, and all you could do was hurry out and hope for the best.

If you're looking for statistics to back up either viewpoint, remember you're arguing your opinion against somebody else's opinion, and facts do not necessarily influence opinions (though they oughta!)

Thus, I think, ends my participation in this particular thread (though I'll be starting a betting pool on whether or not it gets OT and locked - want in, PM me )

 

[frankie_the_yankee]

wheelgunslinger writes: Uh, Mr. Yankee, you're getting answers. You just don't seem interested in processing them. Or, am I wrong here?
(read to the end, sil vous plait)

Keep in mind my original post asked for incidents of snatching of attempted snatching of guns from OC'ers.

What I have gotten is one recounting of the incident in Centerville, VA last summer, which I already knew about, several people expressing their opinions that OC-ing is not good from a tactical standpoint (which I agree with), and several people expressing their opinions that OC is no problem, serves to educate the general public, and can be accomplished by almost anyone willing to use a retention holster, learn retention techniques, practice CQB skills, encounter concerned cops, and in general walk around town all puckered up like a frightened turtle worried that someone might try to snatch their gun.

One thing is that snatchings or attempted snatchings seem to be pretty rare, which is a good thing.

 

[frankie_the_yankee]

Pax Jordana writes: Conversely, I refuse to OC (or go unarmed) in the city itself.

So do you CC in Philly or simply avoid going there? And why?

 

[AntiqueCollector]

Whenever I've open carried a revolver I've usually had a derringer or little pocket revolver concealed on my side opposite the main gun's side of me as backup in my pocket.

 

[Pax Jordana]

So do you CC in Philly or simply avoid going there? And why?

I live just west of Philly. Thing about the suburbs is that everyone's got their personal space, there's just less density overall here. Also, in the 'burbs I mostly carry my gun out of a sense of duty - like the old adage, if I thought I'd need it I wouldn't stick around to need it in the first place! A poor paraphrase, I know.

I frankly think Philly is beyond saving if it doesn't make a major turnaround, but that's rooted in lots of different reasons. If I go to the city it's not to make any statement.

So yes, I CC in the city. And if I have to go to the city, I do my best not to bum around on the streets. Get in, get safely out of my car, get safely into wherever I need to go, reverse process on leaving.

 

[JesseL]

AZ is probably the most OC-friendly state in the USA. Open carry has been legal there forever, and virtually everyone knows it. So I would not expect adverse reactions there from either the cops or the general public.

I have OC'd in Phoenix myself when visiting.

It's nice, isn't it? Wouldn't it be nice if it could be that way everywhere? If the kind of freedom we enjoy in Arizona (regarding OC) is something you would like where you live, get out and do something about it. You can make a difference but you won't do it by complaining here.

If open carry isn't a legal option for you, you've got to work on your legislators first.

If open carry is legal in your locality, but not acceptable to the populace or the police, you've got to get some people OC'ing enough to desensitize the people who have a problem with it.

For those of us in AZ and similar places, we have work to do to. We need to keep exercising our right to OC - to keep the public cool with it, to keep the legislators aware that we take this right seriously, and to remind ourselves of the value of our rights.

 

[frankie_the_yankee]

JesseL in Prescott writes: It's nice, isn't it? Wouldn't it be nice if it could be that way everywhere?

OC-ing in Phoenix was nice most of the time. But not when I went into the quickie mart in a bad neighborhood and had 4 gangsta types hanging around in close proximity. At that point, I wished I had been CC-ing. But as AZ did not have reciprocity with RI, my RI permit was no good there. So it was OC or nothing.

If the kind of freedom we enjoy in Arizona (regarding OC) is something you would like where you live, get out and do something about it. You can make a difference but you won't do it by complaining here.

OC is not legal in TX. If it were, I might OC occassionally. I live on a little spread located in a small town. OC would be good for me because I wouldn't have to worry so much about the wind blowing my vest around when I am CC-ing. (Technically, that COULD be regarded as "failure to conceal" around here, though it is unlikely that a cop would take it that far in a circumstance like that. But CC people are concerned about it nevertheless.)

But when in Austin, as I frequently am, I would not OC because there are just too many people around and I would be concerned about possible snatch attempts.

I'm not really trying to "make a difference". I am just looking to protect myself and family when on the streets with as little drama as possible.

And I'm not "complaining" about anything. I'm just looking for data.

 

[gunsmith]

I "OC'd"

As a security guard, one of my co-workers had his gun snatched
(he had no retention training) I caught a guy reaching for mine (the hairs on the back of my neck actually warned me) after that I bought retention holsters, they're worth the money.
My current strategy is to conceal but I like open for those really hot days...I'm thinking of getting a a S&W 642 to conceal better and so I could join that thread over there in revolvers....I'm so fashionable sometimes...why isn't there a sp101 club.....oh yeah....topic.

OC is legal here in NV but I never see it, I like it being legal so if I print or someone see's it I'm not actually breaking a law.
I wish we had some sort of right, like free speech or freedom of the press, for firearms.
It would be nice to be able to keep and bear arms without having to worry about jail all the time.

 

[ArfinGreebly]

Unremarkable

In our society, carrying guns is NOT "unremarkable". So when someone OC's, they should expect some attention from the police - even if due to simple ignorance of the law.

From a tactical standpoint, I'd say you have nailed it. OC-ing in a group would be a HUGE deterrent to any sort of criminal attack.

You will see me use that term (unremarkable) from time to time.

One of Oleg's stated objectives with The High Road is to make gun ownership unremarkable.

And I agree that this is a worthwhile and noble objective.

The methods and approach will be different from place to place.

"Hey, guns are boring. Everybody has one, what's the big deal?"

 

[JohnKSa]

ETA: Which was the more risky behavior in this incident, open carry or a possible lack of situational awareness (evidenced by the 2 criminals being able to get to the carrier from behind)?

Regardless of what was the more risky behavior, it's clear that his OC'ing was no deterrent.

It seems to me that a twosome doing OC would be much less at risk. A threesome even more so. And a foursome even moresome.

I do believe that if tomorrow OC were suddenly legal everywhere AND popular that it would be a deterrent in that case. One guy OC'ing is a free gun. Several guys OC'ing are DEFINITELY going to be a deterrent.

Again, we get into the "carrying vs. crusading" thing. I carry for protection. I have no interest in running a personal crusade. I will leave that to others.

Well said. Here's how I put it:

I don't carry in an attempt to desensitize or educate the world. I don't carry to make a statement to the world. I carry to increase my personal safety and the safety of those around me. Openly displaying my firearm removes my ability to surprise an armed attacker, removes my ability to decide when to respond in an armed confrontation and makes me a target.

It's not that I'm not interested in educating the public. On the contrary, I think that is very important--that's why I'm a certified firearms instructor in Rifle, Pistol and Shotgun.

One thing is that snatchings or attempted snatchings seem to be pretty rare, which is a good thing.

This is primarily because open carry is pretty rare. Snatchings (from non-LEOs) are rare for the same reason that it's rare to damage your car by running into a California Condor.

If open carry isn't a legal option for you, you've got to work on your legislators first.

I DO agree that open carry should be legal everywhere, I'm less enthusiastic about seeing OC as a way to educate the general public. I think it can educate some, but it seems that even the hardcore OC'ers admit it scares the "sheeple" (not a term I particularly care for). The point is that "sheeple" vote too. I don't see scaring voters as conducive to the advancement of gun rights.

 

[gotarheels03]

Cops open carry all the time and they don't seem to be having their guns snatched by brazen criminals. I think if someone decides to open carry to avoid the permit process (or for whatever other reason) thats fine as long as they practice some situational awareness. I just cant see most criminals targeting an OC'er to disarm unless he's clearly not paying ANY attention to his surroundings.

 

[JohnKSa]

Cops open carry all the time and they don't seem to be having their guns snatched by brazen criminals.

Here's an article by Massad Ayoob claiming that retention training techniques have "saved over a thousand cops in documented gun-snatch attempts".

The article also addresses the issue of gun store clerks/operators who OC and have had their guns grabbed.

 

[longwatch]

To Frankie_the _yankee the problem I had was the Tonys incident in Manassas earlier this year.
There are multiple threads for your amusement, but here is the main one.
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=256178&highlight=tonys+manassas

 

[shadowalker]

I open carry 70% of the time or so in the Boise area and haven't had a problem. I do carry in a level II retention holster when I am planning on open carrying but have also open carried in my normal concealment holster. I have never been asked to leave, and never had the police respond. I have had employees of businesses ask me to help them reach things on shelves, etc.

On a open carry day I had a tire go out, spent an hour next to a LEO at the tire shop without a comment.

I open carry routinely at Walmart, Target, Home Depot, Lowes, Burlington Coat Factory, Applebees, BabiesRUs, Cabelas, Craft warehouse and just about everywhere.

I have experienced nods, smiles, and general politeness. I have experienced exactly two comments, both of them from customers in the reloading section at Cabelas. One along the lines of "He must be a cop" the other a comment to me "You might want to pull your shirt down" despite the fact it was clearly neatly tucked.

Be polite, dress professionally and recognize you may know the law better than others. Open carry is something you need to be prepared to do both with equipment and mentally.

 

[RevolvingCylinder]

Sure, but when OC-ing you have a lot more things that you need to keep track of.

Not really. The prevention of battery and assault(and possibly murder) is the prevention of battery and assault.

If it gets to that point, you're in a heap of trouble regardless. And if you are OC-ing, he doesn't have to search. If he gets the drop on you, he goes for the gun right away.

If it gets to that point is exactly my point. Situational awareness prevents it from getting to that point, OC or CC. What does it matter if he kills you before or after he discovers your pistol? You've put your life into this person's hands either way.

 

[frankie_the_yankee]

Quote: frankie_the_yankee

Sure, but when OC-ing you have a lot more things that you need to keep track of.

Quote: Revolving Cylinder
Not really. The prevention of battery and assault(and possibly murder) is the prevention of battery and assault.

Sorry. I just don't buy it. I've done both in crowded urban areas and I can tell the difference. Let's not kid ourselves, OK? OC-ing is a lot more demanding.

Quote: frankie_the_yankee
If it gets to that point, (BG has the drop on you and searches you for valuables, finding the gun) you're in a heap of trouble regardless. And if you are OC-ing, he doesn't have to search. If he gets the drop on you, he goes for the gun right away.

Quote: Revolving Cylinder
If it gets to that point is exactly my point. Situational awareness prevents it from getting to that point, OC or CC. What does it matter if he kills you before or after he discovers your pistol? You've put your life into this person's hands either way.

When you are OC-ing, the BG knows you have a gun before he attacks. He knows exactly where it is. The gun may actually ATTRACT his attack, as it represents a valuable "get" for the BG. And you can have all the situational awareness you want, but you can't draw until AFTER a threat has materialized. So the BG can pretend to be "blending in" and strike quickly, getting the drop on you before you can do anything (like the BG's in the Centerville, VA incident did).

What are you going to do, move away from anyone that comes anywhere near you? That would look pretty weird. In fact, it would BE pretty weird. Like I said, I don't want to be walking around town all puckered up like a frightened turtle.

If you are CC-ing, he won't know you are armed at first. So at least we know that he won't be attracted to the gun. And you MAY be able to turn the tables on him if his focus is diverted for a second or two.

Try this experiment. Pack your gun in an open topped holster. Then go to the nearest big city ghetto and find a Burger King. Go inside while the place is busy and stand in line. Do this alone of course. Just make sure you fill your tank with "situational awareness" first. 'Cause you're gonna need every bit of it.

 

[JohnKSa]

What does it matter if he kills you before or after he discovers your pistol?

It matters because:

• If his goal is a free pistol he's not likely to target a CC'er in the first place...
• If you're OC'ing, he KNOWS you're armed at a glance and will deal with you as he would deal with an armed person which severely limits your chances of escaping or reacting effectively.
• If you're CC'ing, there's no reason for him to expect you're carrying and search you for a gun.

If you make the assumption that your argument is correct as one of your starting points, you're not likely to get anywhere useful.

Example 1: People are never targeted because of OC. Therefore it doesn't matter whether you OC or CC because OC can't make you a target.

Example 2: CC'ers are equally likely to be targeted as OC'ers and if you're CC'ing and are robbed, you're going to be frisked and the robber will certainly discover your gun.. Therefore you might as well OC because they'll get you if you CC, find your pistol and kill you anyway.

I gather from the continued arguments that basically you guys are saying that it's not enough for me to agree that open carry should be legal everywhere and that it can be used to educate the public (which I've already posted on this thread). It looks like there's going to be general unrest until I admit that there's no tactical difference between CC and OC.

Prepare to be unsatisfied.

 

[Erik]

Another fierce supporter of open carry who conceals his weapons upward of 99% of the time for many of the reasons already stated..

 

[HammerG26]

If I could OC, not sure I would - for reasons stated... I would rather have an advantage. Buddy of mine a black belt in karate, but he does not wear when we go to dinner... would rather have the element of surprise.
Now - that being said - get a good holster (Serpa is great)... that greatly reduces "snatch attempts"... it is all part of the "total package"...
situational awareness, training, proper equipment, etc...

 

[Mainsail]

Maybe it’s a victim/hero complex?

Scenario 1: You’re in a convenience store and someone intent on robbing the place enters, looks around, and pulls their gun. You can pull yours from concealment and shoot him or her. Then you’d be a hero. Then you get to tell people how you were being victimized and you showed them. Yeah, the robber thought you were a sheep but you taught him that some sheep have teeth.

Scenario 2: You’re in a convenience store and someone intent on robbing the place enters, looks around, and sees you’re armed. It’s a convenience store, not Tiffany’s, and robbers are cowards, so he or she goes looking for an easier mark.

 

[frankie_the_yankee]

Mainsail writes: Maybe it’s a victim/hero complex?

Scenario 1: You’re in a convenience store and someone intent on robbing the place enters, looks around, and pulls their gun. You can pull yours from concealment and shoot him or her. Then you’d be a hero. Then you get to tell people how you were being victimized and you showed them. Yeah, the robber thought you were a sheep but you taught him that some sheep have teeth.

Scenario 2: You’re in a convenience store and someone intent on robbing the place enters, looks around, and sees you’re armed. It’s a convenience store, not Tiffany’s, and robbers are cowards, so he or she goes looking for an easier mark.

1) Have either of these scenarios ever happened to you?

2) Can you tell me why I should bet MY life on what amounts to taking YOUR word for it?

Scenario 3: You're in a convenience store OC-ing and standing in line to pay for your purchases. Behind you are 4 gangsta types, much larger than you who notice your gun in its open-topped holster. They realize that they can easily ambush and overpower you, take the gun and make their escape before anyone else present can do anything.

So they proceed to do just that.

BTW, I'm not making this one up. I lived through it, all except the snatch attempt. For whatever reason, they decided not to go through with it - THAT time.

 

[JohnKSa]

Scenario 2: You’re in a convenience store and someone intent on robbing the place enters, looks around, and sees you’re armed. It’s a convenience store, not Tiffany’s, and robbers are cowards, so he or she goes looking for an easier mark.

Another case of initial assumptions driving the outcome.

1. Not all robbers are cowards.
2. The robber may consider a free firearm far more attractive than the $50 in the register.

 

[Mainsail]

Unfortunately for your argument, other than one really ambiguous 4 am robbery, it just doesn’t happen that way.

1) Have either of these scenarios ever happened to you?

In all likelihood, yes. I often frequent two convenience stores in my neighborhood. It’s never been robbed while I was there.

Is it just me or does it seem like the people most opposed to open carry are people who live where it’s illegal and thus don’t OC or have never OCd?