Poll: Do you carry concealed in urban areas? Has your gun ever been snatched?

[frankie_the_yankee]

Another anonymous snatch/atempt voted.

What is it? Can some people not read?

Maybe I should start another poll titled, "Has the invisible gun that no one knows you are carrying ever been snatched?"

 

[Big45]

So I say if you want to OC in urban areas to carve out the right to do it, go for it. If you want to raise peoples' consciousness, go for it. If you want to crusade for OC, go for it.

Just don't try to tell me that it is tactically superior to CC in urban environments.

Sounds fair enough to me.

 

[sixgunner455]

Never had a snatch attempt while CC or OC. I have carried in multiple metro areas, and in other countries. I now live on the edge of a smallish city, sub 30k people, and have never heard of someone trying to grab someone's gun here.

 

[Headless]

I wonder if we can find some factual evidence of OC'ing individuals having their guns taken and used against them; i suspect that would be a much better way to convince people that it is dangerous to O/C in an urban environment. Your story about how you could have had your gun snatched but didn't probably isn't going to convince anybody. Police officers open carry all day and get in physical altercations with people OFTEN (relative to the average citizen) and even then there are relatively few reports of them having their guns taken from them. Judging from the lack of real world evidence showing OC'ing private citizens being robbed/murdered with their own guns i would tend to think that it's perfectly safe to O/C given the correct training and a decent retention holster. Now, someone o/cing with an uncle mike's IWB at 8 o clock without a strap...i would suspect is at a heck of a disadvantage regarding weapon retention. Which is likely why nobody does that.

 

[romma]

Wow, not understanding the point of this poll...

 

[frankie_the_yankee]

Headless writes: I wonder if we can find some factual evidence of OC'ing individuals having their guns taken and used against them; i suspect that would be a much better way to convince people that it is dangerous to O/C in an urban environment.

These accounts are rare because almost no one (non-LEO) OC's in an urban environment. You can verify this by visiting any major city and counting up the number of people you find OC'ing. Most of the time, you won't see anyone doing it.

Headless writes: Police officers open carry all day and get in physical altercations with people OFTEN (relative to the average citizen) and even then there are relatively few reports of them having their guns taken from them.

Two years ago, Detective Allen in Providence, RI had his gun snatched by a suspect he was questioning at the PD station. The much larger BG waited until Allen's partner left the room to get him a drink of water. Then he wrestled Allen's gun away from and shot him dead.

http://www.projo.com/news/content/projo_20050916_carpio16.1d6570e8.html

Also in 2005, a prisoner being moved around in a courthouse in Atlanta, GA found himself alone in an elevator with a female deputy. He grabbed her gun and killed two people while making his escape.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,150119,00.html

Last month in Huntsville, TX a prisoner on a agricultural detail grabbed a gun from a female guard on horseback, stole a truck, and ran over the guard, killing her. The horse had to be put down from gunshot wounds.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/09/24/national/main3292216.shtml

In addition, a non-LEO who was OC'ing in Centerville, VA was ambushed by 2 BG's and had his gun snatched while walking down the street last July.

http://www.fairfaxcounty.gov/police/reports/reports2006/073106robNewtonPatton.htm

This is just off the top of my head.

So it does happen. The question is, is it more likely to happen to people when CC'ing or when OC'ing?

To me, the answer is obvious.

BTW, I see that another non-reader has voted that they have experienced a gun snatch or snatch attempt while CC'ing, without posting any details of the incident as requested.

I guess the OC'ers are getting irritated with me.

 

[Headless]

Well, you found one - that's good. Statistically insignificant, but at least it's something.

The police officer accounts are not really applicable to your case; police put themselves in close proximity with known criminals on a daily basis while open carrying, and their job involves subduing these people. They don't really have the option of carrying concealed and they'd probably end up dead trying to retrieve guns from deep cover rather than alive due to quick deployment of their sidearm at a crucial moment if they did try to carry concealed everywhere.

So, we've got one case of a private citizen open carrying having his gun taken so far. I wonder what the likelihood would be if we did some statistical crunching on the number of people open carrying vs. this fellow who had his gun snatched? I suspect there are no such viable statistics showing the # of people who open carry, which is rather unfortunate since it makes it impossible to accurately judge.

 

[frankie_the_yankee]

Roma writes: Wow, not understanding the point of this poll...

By that I take it that you find the idea that snatching is a problem for CC'ers in urban environments is patently absurd.

I fully agree.

I started this poll to compare the results to what was obtained from a similar poll of OC'ers. That poll did, as expected, show a few instances of snatches or snatch attempts.

Still, some OC'ers bizzarely maintain that CC has no tactical advantage over OC, and that the concern over gun snatchings is a myth. They do this while keeping their heads "on a swivel", avoiding people who get near their space such as standing in line at Mickey-D's, and getting all puckered up like a frightened turtle when they can't avoid it.

I think that some of them have anonymously posted votes in this poll that they have experienced snatch attempts while carrying concealed, because I flat out can't believe that 6 out of 130+ respondants have truly experienced such a thing.

(Note that one person voting this way explained that his experience was that of a 5 year old kid who "made" him in a store and reached out and touched his gun. That account I believe. But I think the 5 anonymous ones are BS.)

 

[Headless]

Both methods of carry have tactical advantages and disadvantages... i don't think anyone except you is trying to maintain that one is particularly superior to the other.

 

[mjrodney]

I didn't read the entire thread, so I apologize if someone else beat me to the answer, but I have to say having my CCW "snatched" is a bit remote.

Why?

Either it's deep into a pocket of my cargo shorts or I wear a Thunderwear (Smartcarry) holster.

If they try for either, they will have a difficult time figuring out which "snubby" is which.

 

[frankie_the_yankee]

Now we're up to 7 snatches or attempts, 6 anonymous.

As if anyone would believe that with reference to guns that are carried concealed. There are either a lot of psychic gun snatchers out there or a lot of lame OC advocates.

 

[Sly Dog]

Frankie:

Do you think ole Flint may have 7 different sign in names on this forum?

 

[frankie_the_yankee]

No, but someone else might.

 

[Geronimo45]

I would not have dreamed that so many people CARRYING CONCEALED have had others attempt to snatch their CONCEALED guns.

Ever hear of Handgun Control Inc.?

But no snatches here. You can't take what you can't see - and since I typically do shoulder carry under a buttoned shirt or jacket, it'd be pretty hard to see. Doing some pocket carry now that I've got something that works for that. No attempts to grab it.
As for the shoulder rig - any would-be gun-grabber would be confused as all getout when trying to pull the gun from that thing. It's only easy to do for the user, nobody else.

OC's got advantages, so does CC.

 

[Flintknapper]

Sly Dog wrote:

Frankie:

Do you think ole Flint may have 7 different sign in names on this forum?

I have done nothing to skew the results of this poll. I am of the same opinion as Frankie concerning "suspicious" votes. There were similar "unsubstantiated" votes in my poll.

I have no doubt...the same thing has happened here. I have no way to verify which poll votes are valid/accurate, so I simply accept them for what they are.

Frankie and I are in agreement on most points concerning the carry of a firearm for personal protection (whether Open or Concealed). I am as interested as him... to learn the opinions/experiences of others.

We have different ideas about how "afraid" a person should be carrying in either mode, but that is a purely personal decision.

I am not certain how he intends to use this information....but I would not try to alter it for my own purposes.

Flint.

 

[Sly Dog]

Flint:

I was only kidding with Frankie about the "log in names". I have been keeping up with the debate on OC vs CC on the Texas forum between you two guys, and really have enjoyed it.

I can convey an interesting "2nd hand story", that I over-heard at a CHL class. Two men were talking, and one stated that a friend of his was "made" at a Wal-Mart at Sherman, Texas. He said he was carrying IWB, when evidently two men either saw the gun, or he was printing or something. They jumped him on the parking lot as they were trying to take his gun. The story was several by-standers ran to his aid, and the criminals ran off. He also stated that a thief at a jail had made mention that the difference in LEO and CHL folks, is one conceals, and the LE folks carry open, and that is what they watch for.

IF this story is true, I can see where OC would have its advantages. I don't know if I would carry OC or not if it were legal here. I prefer shoulder holster carry, and I don't think I will ever be "made" carrying this way. However I do support OC, and wish we had the choice......even so,I would probably stay with CC.

 

[Flintknapper]

Hi Sly Dog,

I figured you were kidding, but wanted to state my position in case others weren't aware of the debate between Frankie and I.

If OC were to become an option in Texas (where I reside), I would on occasion... avail myself of it. Certainly, there are advantages and disadvantages associated with each mode of carry.

Like you, I carry in a shoulder rig, and despite what some "experts" promote, it would be very difficult for someone to snatch my weapon. Others who might OC in a mode less guarded, simply need to assess the risk for themselves.

Thanks for your reply Sir!

Flint.

 

[frankie_the_yankee]

Flintknapper wrote: I am not certain how he intends to use this information....but I would not try to alter it for my own purposes.

I don't know if there is any good use for it myself. I don't believe that 7 people out of 174 (cuttent total votes) have really experienced snatches or attempts while carrying concealed. I am pretty sure that some OC advocactes have intentionally voted to skew the poll.

But I can't prove it. I would have expected zero snatches or attempted snatches of concealed carried guns. I've CC'd daily in urban environments for 15 years in an IWB holster at 3 o'clock and never had so much as a hint that I was ever made, let alone the subject of a snatch attempt. This tells me that such occurrences are pretty rare, and unlikely to show up in a small sample.

Given the doubtful (IMO) validity, I'm not sure that the results mean anything except maybe that a lot more people CC than OC. I base this on the fact that I've gotten more than double the total responses than the OC poll got on this forum.

 

[Flintknapper]

Yeah, I doubt you got a fair shake.

One point of clarification:

Frankie wrote:

Given the doubtful (IMO) validity, I'm not sure that the results mean anything except maybe that a lot more people CC than OC. I base this on the fact that I've gotten more than double the total responses than the OC poll got on this forum.

Although you had greater response "here", remember... I polled two places.

My figures were 160-5 when I quit counting. So, I just waited to see what yours were here when you hit the same count.

When your poll equaled the total of mine....your results were 160-7.

A virtual dead-heat. And both polls skewed IMO.

Still, many good opinions were shared...and I gleaned something from it.

My Thanks to all who participated.

Flint.

 

[frankie_the_yankee]

Flintknapper writes: Although you had greater response "here", remember... I polled two places.

Sure. I was just pointing out that I got the same number of responses polling one place as you did in polling two. That tells me that there it's likely that more CC'ers frequent this site than OC'ers.

Extrapolating, there are probably more CC'ers who carry in urban areas than there are OC'ers.

I'd say many more.

 

[Novus Collectus]

OC'ing in crowded environments is a BAD IDEA for most people. You give up tactical surprise and you set yourself up to be ambushed by BG's seeking to grab your gun.

Millions of cops do it everyday.
I remember one time in a Starbucks a much shorter LEO in uniform was in line when she saw me in the corner of her eye behind her. She immediately started guarding. I was offended because I may look rough, but not that rough IMO. However years later when I started getting into gun ownership and reading up on it I learned of the situational awareness aspect.
The difference between her and other officers is she let herself get into a position where she had to guard her gun side from someone twice her size who was a potential threat and most officers I have not seen this because they probably did not put themselves in such a position in the first place.

Now as far as people knowing if you are carrying concealed, I have read where officers look for that. They notice the natural tendency for CCers (usually criminals though) guarding their side that has a gun, they often subconscioulsy or even conscioulsy check to make sure the gun is still there, they walk slightly differently depending on where it is, and stuff like that, so why can't a determined criminal do the same? No matter how good someone is as concealing their weapon, there is still a noticable "tell" many will have so I can see it possible that some have had attempts to take snatch their concealed guns no matter how "responsible" they were.


Also to top it off, it all depends on the urban area. How many criminals try to snatch officer's guns out of the blue? Not many because there is often another armed officer close by that has a gun too. In urban areas where it is likely there is more than one person open carrying, criminals are less likely to do something that will get them shot by someone with another gun.
An armed society is a polite society, and an openly armed society is a safer one.

If I could open carry in my state, I would probably not do it on a crowded subway car (which would be unlikely to be legal), but I would in a line at a Starbucks. Of course though if I was in a situtation like the line at a Starbucks I would take the precaution to make sure it was a little more secure. Sure it would be harder to get out in an emergency, but it would be a precautionary chance weighed against its need for quick access.


To say it is a bad idea to OC in urban areas is truely elitist. Not all urban areas are the same as fasr as risk from crinial activity goes, most people who carry of any kind are responsible people and are far from careless (as stats show) and in some urban areas where there is criminal activity the criminals may be too wary to try something like that for fear of getting shot by the others openly or concealed carrying in a city where many do.

 

[longwatch]

Interesting back and forth here on the polls. Obviously, none of them are very scientific and difficult to determine their accuracy. Which helps very little with figuring out which carry method is best, all we really have to rely on is a few anecdotes. I think certainly a gun grab could happen in either mode of carry, but the occurrences seem low. I think the school of thought that CCW snatches would be less likely than OC ones would be valid if all carriers could conceal perfectly. That argument breaks down when human error is factored in. A clue to the feasibility of a concealed carry snatch could be answered by the question, 'how many concealed carriers have you made?'

In my case, I work in a sporting goods store with firearms so my 'mades' will probably be high but I have seen 2 carriers with weapons so poorly concealed that I was left with no doubt. That is not including many high probables with very obvious tells such as concealment vests or fanny packs.

My point isn't to put down CCers, just to say that because of indifference or error concealment can be nullified. However, that doesn't mean a grab attempt will happen. Other factors can offset a concealment mistake. Primarily situational awareness, and tactical considerations.

 

[frankie_the_yankee]

frankie_the_yankee wrote: OC'ing in crowded environments is a BAD IDEA for most people. You give up tactical surprise and you set yourself up to be ambushed by BG's seeking to grab your gun.

Novus Collectus responded: Millions of cops do it everyday.

Interesting that you should bring up OC by cops. I have actually made that comparison myself. I did so because cops represent a large population group that OC's all the time, whereas only a tiny number of non-LEO OC in urban areas. (You can prove this by going to any urban area and counting up how many cops you see OC'ing compared to how many non-LEO you see OC'ing.)

I was criticized for making this comparison on the grounds that the behavior of cops and non-cops is inherently different.

But I have also shown where cops do get their guns snatched. If you read through this thread you will find references and links. It doesn't happen too often, but it happens.

While cops do have a duty to press forward and make the arrest, they also have several advantages. They are trained in hand-to-hand combat. Most have retention training. They are correctly percieved as hard tarets. Most have retention holsters. They have backup available on short notice. And BG's know that if you whack a cop, hundreds of other cops will make it their top priority to bring you to justice. And they won't be "gentle" about it either.

Ayoob has documented over a thousand attempted snatches of cops' guns that were thwarted by retention training and equipment. (Cops have to write reports when they experience a snatch or snatch attempt.)

BTW, according to FBI stats, there are approximately 800,000 cops in the USA.

As for CC'ers getting "made" and hence being potential "snatchees", I'm sure that some are made. But however many are, it is certainly less than 100%, and in all likelyhood much less. With OC, one should assume that one is "made" since no effort is made to hide the gun at all. So the exposure is certainly greater with OC, much greater.

Novus Collectus wrote: How many criminals try to snatch officer's guns out of the blue? Not many because there is often another armed officer close by that has a gun too. In urban areas where it is likely there is more than one person open carrying, criminals are less likely to do something that will get them shot by someone with another gun.

1) Cops are trained to back each other up. Armed citizens are not. And you can't assume that an armed citizen would make a quick judgement to shoot or try to stop/detain a BG who snatched another armed citizen's gun and was running away. I know for my own part, if he was running away I would let him. (The threat to me doesn't meet the criteria of being "imminent", one of the necessities for the lawful use of deadly force.) Just recognizing what was going on to the point where one was sure enough to take a shot is highly problematic. And how do you know that a DA won't decide that it was an improper use of deadly force (by a non-LEO)?

What do you think would happen in MD to someone who shot someone who snatched another's gun and was running away?

2) Show me an urban area where more than one person is likely to be present that is OC'ing. I've been around the block a few times and I've only seen 2 people OC'ing in my life (except for cops). One was in Phoenix and one was in Brattleboro, VT.

Though I will admit that if someone is part of a group that is OC'ing, OC certainly is a huge deterrent to any BG.

longwatch wrote: I think the school of thought that CCW snatches would be less likely than OC ones would be valid if all carriers could conceal perfectly. That argument breaks down when human error is factored in. A clue to the feasibility of a concealed carry snatch could be answered by the question, 'how many concealed carriers have you made?'

You can assume that 100% of OC'ers are "made", since the gun is not concealed. Likewise, we can assume that less than 100% of CC'ers are made, since they have at least made an attempt to conceal their guns. Some of these attempts will be successful, right? So all OC'ers are potential targets for a snatch or snatch attempt while only some CC'ers are.

Obviously it follows that more OC'ers will be at risk of a snatch.

 

[Flintknapper]

Frankie,

With all due respect: What is it you have posted here, that you haven't already said 10 or more times (on more than one forum)?

We understand YOUR position, you are entitled to your opinion. Not everyone agrees with you, but thats O.K.

Why the crusade? The same points/opinions posted over and over!

If we had been having this conversation in person, there would be blood dripping from our ears by now. Our eyes would be glassy and fixed in a stare.

Not because of any masterful presentation of fact or logic on your part, but because you have been absolutely "rabid" about convincing the rest of us you are right.

Let it go my friend, I'm getting worried for you.

 

[frankie_the_yankee]

Hi Flint,

Longwatch and Novus merely raised issues that had already been addressed. I guess they didn't read the whole thread. I simply summarized the points that addressed the issues they raised.