Shocked By CCH Holders Yesterday

[MikeNice]

Nearly everybody here is falling in to the same trap the radio host set. You are all arguing about whether it is okay to drink while carrying. That is not the point. In many places the law allready makes that a no go or regulates it just like drunk driving.

It isn't about being able to go yuck it up while carrying your gun. It is about being able to visit the local sports bar and watch a game with friends. It is about being able to go to Olive Garden or run in to Pizza Hut to grab a pizza.

Here is a scenario I was thinking about when I heard this discussion on the radio:

Your kid brings home their report card. You are suprised that they have brought their grades up and want to take them out for pizza. Well you can not go to Pizza Hut because they serve beer. You think about Chuck E. Cheese,but they serve beer. You look around and realize that all of the pizza places in your town serve either beer or wine. So you think about taking them out for burgers. You realize the only place serving burgers and no beer is fast food.

What are your choices? You can order in, you can eat McDonalds, you can lock your gun in the car, or you can leave it at home. Locking it in your car is maybe worse than leaving it at home. Which one is worse is open to debate. Either way it isn't doing you a bit of good.

Now I am not a drinker. Don't get me wrong, at 21 I tried to pickle my liver several times. I just have lost the taste for drinking. However, I still love to catch a good blues show at some local bars. Most of the bars are in questionable areas, or require parking in very poorly lit areas. I do not feel like I should have to pick between protection and enjoying good music.

Why should I be forced to walk through dark alleys and parking lots without that layer of protection? I have never been in trouble, I try to avoid danger, I pay my taxes, and I try to do no harm to any man or animal that doesn't provoke the response.

CCH holders have tended to be very good at avoiding crimes that cause them to lose their permits. Between 10/1/1987 and 9/30/2010 Florida issued 1,858,018 permits. During the same time period they only revoked 5,102 permits for crimes after issuance. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but that seems to be a 0.0027% revocation rate due to crimes. Now that isn't alcohol crimes, but general crimes.

If you ask me that makes it seem like most CCH permit holders are safe and mature enough to make smart decisions. They don't seem like the type to let a bar make them a monster. It also doesn't seem like they are going to start drinking and carrying if the law says no drinking while carrying.

Can anybody tell me why I should be forced to suffer for the potential (and very barely potential) misdeeds of someone else?

http://licgweb.doacs.state.fl.us/stats/cw_monthly.html

Edit to add:
During the above mentione thirteen year period, in Florida, only 168 licenses were revoked because the CCH permit holder used a gun in a crime. The percentage is so low I'm not even going to try to figure it out. Just think about how miniscule that number is when trying to justify limiting a CCH holder's right to the fullest extent of self defense.

 

[lwknight]

A couple of drinks at the local watering hole after work is not the same as a drunk with a gun. A responsible person should not be getting drunk while armed.

Mike , your post came in during my typing.
If whoever is not drinking then they should be able to carry where ever they please.

 

[blitzen]

I like to drink and at times I drink a lot. I also like to shoot and I shoot a lot and very often, however, When I pop the top off that first beer the guns are put away. I carry 99% of the time but that 1% of the time I choose to go out unarmed with the intention of having a few it is a choice I make. Alcohol and guns do not mix for anyone at any age. Anyone who thinks they do is asking for a whole lot of trouble.

 

[MikeNice]

We were not talking about guns and "UH" drink as in liken to dinner at Applebies.
You do not have much choice as to which road you take home or to the store and you should feel safe to shop whatever store you choose.

The OPs' allusion was to going out drinking. There are places where you double check to be sure you have your gun. Those are the places where you had best stay out of and doubly should not be drinking there. You know the type. Little purple barn looking place behind the truck stop on I-10. A stranger might get out with his skin if he is not drinking and getting roudy.

Most of the first paragraph from the OP

It was actually an elimination of carrying in places that sell alcohol for consumption on premises. Yet everybody bit the bait. They allowed the discussion to become almost solely about guns in bars.

The discussion is about more than bars. However, I don't see how talking about a bar or the neighborhood you live in is very different when you say, if you feel you need to be armed you shouldn't be there in the first place. You could just as easily say, if a person feels their neighborhood is unsafe and they need a gun they should move.

Those are great attitudes to take untill you have lived somewhere like Greenville or North Charleston South Carolina. Try living some where that cops feel safe taking bribes in broad daylight. Try living somewhere that two men can beat a returning war veteran to death, run from the law for weeks, and still be let out on bail. After you live in a city where the fast food places lock the doors at sundown, you will understand why being told not to carry is frustrating.

I have lived in cities where I felt every where I went was dangerous. I have lived in places where it was not uncommon to hear of home invasions that were also abductions. Luckily I don't live in those places now, but at the time I had to live there. In those places I mentioned and others I was afraid to be out after dark nearly anywhere. If I had been eligible to carry at the time, I would have. I also would have avoided any place that didn't allow me to carry.

Avoiding dangerous places is not always possible. In some places it is nearly impossible. Telling people that they just have to suck it up and be less well protected is condescending, pedantic, and/or shows a lack of understanding. It also doesn't address the fact that you have a right to protect your self to the fullest extent. I am not defenseless without a gun but, if the other guy has a tire iron, a kinfe, or a brick, a gun is my best option.

Still nobody has answered a question I posed along the way. Why should I be told I can not carry when I have proven through out my life to be responsible and avoid trouble? When less than 1% of CCH permit holder's lose their license due to criminal activity why shouldn't we be able to carry in places that sell alcohol for consumption?

LW, you did answer it in a fashion. However, I want to hear a logical, thought out, and well supported argument by those that oppose allowing CCH permit holders to take their guns in to place that sell alcohol for consumption on premises.

Upon re-reading this post I understand what is intended to be strong language may be overly so. That is a direct result of being up way too late. However, I am too tired to edit it any further. So, I will be off to bed with a preemptive apology and a promise that it isn't personal or meant as an attack.

 

[Freedom_fighter_in_IL]

Mike, I have repeatedly stated that I don't mind one bit about carrying in a bar, restaurant, Uncle Jims Handy Dandy Liquor mart or where ever you so choose. My only beef is with those that seem to want to push the right to carry while drinking. Period. That is idiotic, foolish, retarded, stupid, and what ever more insulting things you want to call it. If you are going to drink, do not drive or carry a loaded firearm PERIOD. I cant for the life of me understand why ANYONE with a single braincell in their head would argue that for a split second. It's pure stupidity.

 

[REAPER4206969]

How about you simply google the term "Statistics for CCW carriers firing while intoxicated".

The only thing that comes up is Brady propaganda. Way to build credibility on a gun site.

Reaper, fact is there are too damn many news stories on it to pick just one my friend.

Just one.

Simple fact is, if you are drinking, don't carry a damn gun.

No.

You want to tell me that this should be allowed?

Yes. I manage not to act like an idiot.

I've seen way too many fools drinking to feel this should be a good idea.

Have you seen one of us here drink?

Sorry but I enjoy my life and the life of my children to care to damn much weather or not YOU feel all butthurt because an INTELLIGENT law requiring you to disarm while drinking should be enacted.

And I don't care about your illogical fears.

Carry anywhere you wish, don't mind that at all, fully agree with it, but do NOT carry while under the influence of anything.

Stay in Illinois.

My life and the life of my children thank you for making an intelligent choice.

I've got a Glock IWB and an Oktoberfest in my hand in honor of you.

 

[Gato Montés]

Mike, I have repeatedly stated that I don't mind one bit about carrying in a bar, restaurant, Uncle Jims Handy Dandy Liquor mart or where ever you so choose. My only beef is with those that seem to want to push the right to carry while drinking. Period. That is idiotic, foolish, retarded, stupid, and what ever more insulting things you want to call it. If you are going to drink, do not drive or carry a loaded firearm PERIOD. I cant for the life of me understand why ANYONE with a single braincell in their head would argue that for a split second. It's pure stupidity.

What is your definition of drinking? Some of us have a couple every here and now and that in no way endangers anyone. I'm guessing your view of alcohol is nothing more than a tool to get inebriated.

Furthermore, if Joe Blow goes to the bar while carrying and gets flat out drunk, hes going to do so whether or not it's legal. Any argument you can use against drinking and firearms can be used against private ownership of firearms itself.

 

[General Geoff]

If you are going to drink, do not drive or carry a loaded firearm PERIOD. I cant for the life of me understand why ANYONE with a single braincell in their head would argue that for a split second. It's pure stupidity.

It's all about discretion; having a drink or two does not make one a blundering idiot. Michael Schumacher is still a better driver with two drinks in him, than anyone on this board is stone-sober. And Jerry Miculek could still out-shoot pretty much all of us, even if he had a few.

As Dirty Harry once said, "A man's got to know his limitations." I don't think the law should dictate a man's limitations for him.

 

[IlikeSA]

I don't understand why people complain, as they did on the radio, about the government lessening its power. I suppose we have simply grown used to the fact that the government is in someway involved in most things that we do in public, and indeed, in private in some cases.

 

[Gouranga]

Here's the problem with comparing drunk driving to drunk carrying.

Driving is an inherently risky and dangerous activity which requires constant attention to prevent massive injury or death. Carrying is *not* inherently risky nor dangerous; shooting is, but anyone who regularly carries, knows that shooting is a last resort to protect life and limb from an adversary intent on serious bodily harm.

Carrying a gun is far closer to carrying car keys than actually driving. And while I've heard of people confiscating car keys before or during a night of expected drunkenness, I myself find that concept ridiculous.

It is not the carrying that concerns me, a gun in a holster is not dangerous. It is that the use of that firearm (if needed) is something that requires 1. Sound judgment and 2. physical coordination (so you actually hit what you are shooting at). Failure at either of these can have extremely dire consequences and alcohol specifically impairs you at both levels.

Given that alcohol impairs the functions needed to effectively and appropriately use your firearm, I do not see a problem with a law setting a BAC (as that is the only measure we have) at which carry is illegal (many states set it at 0.0). I do not think1 beer is going to impair you enough but on from there...well I would really be fine with having it at par with driving.

That being said, you KNOW if you had to use it and you had any alcohol in your system at all, you would be crucified in court criminal and civil.

 

[Gouranga]

I don't understand why people complain, as they did on the radio, about the government lessening its power. I suppose we have simply grown used to the fact that the government is in someway involved in most things that we do in public, and indeed, in private in some cases.

To be clear, I am not advocating that. If no such law is on the books in the state, they do NOT need one made. But for those of us who live in states with such a law on the books, the limit is usually any BAC over 0.0 or possession of alcohol at all with a firearm is illegal. If I was to follow the NC law, if I had a beer one beer and then some gang banger broke into my home. I would break the firearm laws if I grabbed my gun and used it to defend my family. That is total garbage. So really I would advocate setting a limit similar to DWI for firearms.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

A couple of drinks at the local watering hole after work is not the same as a drunk with a gun. A responsible person should not be getting drunk while armed.

Well intentioned, but very naive.

A couple of drinks? Come on. Do you realize how many responsible people had "a couple of drinks" and then drove their vehicles into other vehicles or people?

A reasonable person should not be getting drunk while armed, yet the process of getting drunk affects the brain in a manner that causes a lot of people to not be reasonable any longer. Reasoning capabilities deteriorate and thus so too do decision capabilities.

MikeNice, I find it ironic that your compaint is one of gun control and you don't like the fact that somebody else (government) is wanting control of your guns but your sig line is from one of Eastwoods movies where he states that he wants to control guns, even those that aren't his. You have his sig line, but if you were a character in the movie, you would not want him taking control of your gun.

 

[Guillermo]

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[JohnBT]

"I have been trained since I could walk on how to handle firearms and more than likely have better training than 99% of the common public"

Ooooh, an elite person. Superior to the common man. Qualified to think for everybody else and issue orders. Well damn, I guess you just simply must be smarter than everybody too. Right?

Ha. Get over your stuck up self. You're not the only one raised around guns. Was your father a state trooper when you were born? Mine was. That and a couple of bucks will get you a cup of coffee.

And why can't I sit on my front porch sipping a beer and having a pistol in my pocket? I'm 60 and live on an urban street and haven't been drunk in years and years and years. I don't live in some suburban/rural utopia where I can see the bums coming from a mile away down the driveway, there're right there at the bottom of the porch steps on the sidewalk.

It's no wonder these discussions end up with incensed words. Too many meddling do-gooders who should simply mind their own business.

I still don't see why I shouldn't be able to carry a pistol into, oh, Applebee's at lunch and have one beer while enjoying a burger with my 84-year-old neighbor.

The people who want to carry and get drunk are ALREADY DOING IT. And probably don't have a carry permit anyway.
_______________________

Back to the topic of Virginia. The ratio isn't 50-50 anymore. In fact, the Virginia ABC Board is trying a pilot project because sales of expensive shots of liquor have thrown off the 45% to 55% ratio of food to alcohol sales.

"To better balance the 45-to-55 food-to-liquor ratio, Pflug and 11 other Virginia restaurant operators have joined ABC’s two-year pilot project to test an alternative way to calculate the ratio for mixed beverage licensees.

Rather than comparing the percentage of food sales to mixed-beverage sales, the pilot is based on alcohol volume. Participating licensees can sell $350 of food per one gallon of alcohol bought from ABC. Beer and wine aren’t included in either equation"

 

[Sam1911]

You know... if the scientists, sociologists, and liquor control boards figure out the formulas juuuust right, then the good folks in the legislatures can write jusssst the right law to control people ...

And then we'll be safe.

We'd better keep trying, though. Seems like we have an AWFUL lot of laws and folks tell us we're STILL not safe enough yet. Maybe if we had another one. Or two. Yeah, three, tops. THEN we'll be safe.

 

[Old Fuff]

The people who want to carry and get drunk are ALREADY DOING IT. And probably don't have a carry permit anyway.

Indeed! And concealed means concealed. Which is the reason none of the proposed rules, regulations and laws will accomplish what they are supposed to.

 

[lloydkristmas]

I dont do the bar scene much, but if Im there, the gun is too. Its my responsibility to keep it concealed, and if I fail to do so, well I guess I reap the consequences. Never had an issue in seven years of carrying.

Unless there is a metal detector, my gun is on my side.

 

[Hatterasguy]

Drinking and driving don't mix very well, neither does drinking and weapons.

Their was just a big shooting in New Haven as the bars were closing. Dumb kids bring guns and knives and get a bit drunk and pissed off and start fighting.

 

[ForumSurfer]

I'll avoid the drinking while carrying debate...

However, I find it asinine that my government will not let me carry in restaurants that serve alcohol. If I sit down to eat with my family at pizza hut, I can't carry a weapon in because they serve beer for consumption.

Most alcohol related fights start with someone spewing off at the mouth, so why not go for the source. Instead of banning my right to carry in a place that serves alcohol, let's ban free speech. If you want to speak freely, go somewhere else. That seems about as fair as temporarily stripping me of my right to keep and bear arms (which I had to pay a licensing fee for).

 

[CoRoMo]

My state does not prohibit carrying a gun into an establishment that serves alcohol. Concealed or openly, it doesn't matter, it is perfectly legal. IIRC, consuming alcohol while carrying isn't illegal either.

Consequentially, our population has nearly been wiped out now. There are only a few of us left here, and a lot of vacant housing. Had the government only gotten involved, and told us all what we can and cannot do, dozens of people would... no hundreds of... no thousan... tens of thou... hundreds of thousands of people would still be alive today.

 

[CZguy]

I guess that I'm not in favor of any more laws.

I carry and drive daily, therefore I don't consume anything that would impair my judgment. That however is a personal choice, that everyone should make for themselves. If you drink and then for some reason use a firearm, then you have brought the problem to yourself.

It's the same with seat belts, motorcycle helmets, and health insurance. It should be the individuals responsibility to determine what is correct for them. Just don't look to me to pay for it if you make the wrong choice.

 

[ForumSurfer]

My state does not prohibit carrying a gun into an establishment that serves alcohol. Concealed or openly, it doesn't matter, it is perfectly legal. IIRC, consuming alcohol while carrying isn't illegal either.

Consequentially, our population has nearly been wiped out now. There are only a few of us left here, and a lot of vacant housing. Had the government only gotten involved, and told us all what we can and cannot do, dozens of people would... no hundreds of... no thousan... tens of thou... hundreds of thousands of people would still be alive today.

I'm sorry to hear that.

I'll see about deportin...er, uh...sending you some of our life saving politicians. They'll whip up some magic legislation to stop evil doers right away.

 

[happygeek]

WA state only prohibits carrying in the portion of the establishment that is off limits to those under 21, i.e. the bar portion of Applebees for example. I have no idea if they prohibit even 1 drink while carrying, since I don't do that I haven't worried about it.

It is pretty stupid that some states won't even let you carry in Pizza Hut rather than just making the bar section off limits.

 

[MikeNice]

MikeNice, I find it ironic that your compaint is one of gun control and you don't like the fact that somebody else (government) is wanting control of your guns but your sig line is from one of Eastwoods movies where he states that he wants to control guns,

I will admit I took the quote completely out of context. I saw it in one of those qoute montages on Youtube or another video site. The way it was cut in it came across pretty cool. It also seemed to fit the way I feel when I'm around certain people. So, I took the quote.

Tell me which movie it is from. I'll try to find it in context. If I disagree with the context I will change it.

 

[MikeNice]

Their was just a big shooting in New Haven as the bars were closing. Dumb kids bring guns and knives and get a bit drunk and pissed off and start fighting.

Exactly, dumb kids that are breaking the law to begin with. These aren't law abiding folks. They most likely aren't carrying legally. These are kids that have no respect for their own lives or the laws.

If I was leaving a neighboring establishment I would not want to be unarmed during this scene. I could probably avoid it all together. I would still love to be able to avoid becoming collateral damage. You never know what a violent mob of people will do.