M110
Member
Lever-action in .357 
SHTF Rifles 101
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PS90 is an interesting gun, no doubt about it.
Ammo availability is a biggie, however. Besides,IMO, 50 rounds isn't going to be a huge advantage over 30 rounds.
And for the Cost of that rifle, you can get a Savage 308 (nice hunting rifle) and a Couple decent AKs.
Or better yet, you could get a Saiga 308 and convert it yourself. It has 20 round magazines available now. Makes a good defense and hunting rifle. With the savings, you could also spring for a decent 9mm handgun and a Mossberg 500 shotgun.
A rifle, pistol, and a shotgun for the cost of one rifle is a decent trade-off in terms of cost. AND you are talking about a proven round in terms of defense and hunting.
You could even equip your entire extended family with decent AKs for the cost of that one rifle-- if defense was your only concern.
But its your money....
All the best!
John
Ammo availability is a biggie, however. Besides,IMO, 50 rounds isn't going to be a huge advantage over 30 rounds.
And for the Cost of that rifle, you can get a Savage 308 (nice hunting rifle) and a Couple decent AKs.
Or better yet, you could get a Saiga 308 and convert it yourself. It has 20 round magazines available now. Makes a good defense and hunting rifle. With the savings, you could also spring for a decent 9mm handgun and a Mossberg 500 shotgun.
A rifle, pistol, and a shotgun for the cost of one rifle is a decent trade-off in terms of cost. AND you are talking about a proven round in terms of defense and hunting.
You could even equip your entire extended family with decent AKs for the cost of that one rifle-- if defense was your only concern.
But its your money....
All the best!
John
In any reasonable SHTF situation you are going to be using you own supply of ammunition, so the caliber is limited to what terminal performance you want and how much you want to pay to feed the rifle.
Both the AR and AK are good platforms, as long as you have quality guns. A quality AK is going to cost less than a quality AR. I really think this boils down to a matter of personal preference.
As a tangent, it would be prudent to pick up a SHTF shotgun. And my idea of said shotgun is kind of unconventional. Get whatever action you like (well, maybe not single-shot), with a wood stock, a 24-28" barrel, and no magazine extensions or other fancy accessories hanging off of it. Basically you want a PC looking gun that isn't going to draw unwanted attention.
If you need to leave your residence you can throw the shotgun behind the seat. You still have protection, but authorities are much less likely harrass than if you had a battle rifle in your vehicle. It is also less likely to alarm fellow citizens. The last thing you need is a SWAT team opening up on you because someone alerted the authorities that there was "Some guy looting with an assault rifle". Plus there are a multitude of ammuntion types for the shotgun for every purpose, including flares, shot for hunting birds and rabbits, slugs that can drop a moose, and the ever popular buckshot.
I look at it this way. The shotgun can pinch hit for a military-derived rifle, but a said rifle is going to have a much harder times replacing a shotgun.
Both the AR and AK are good platforms, as long as you have quality guns. A quality AK is going to cost less than a quality AR. I really think this boils down to a matter of personal preference.
As a tangent, it would be prudent to pick up a SHTF shotgun. And my idea of said shotgun is kind of unconventional. Get whatever action you like (well, maybe not single-shot), with a wood stock, a 24-28" barrel, and no magazine extensions or other fancy accessories hanging off of it. Basically you want a PC looking gun that isn't going to draw unwanted attention.
If you need to leave your residence you can throw the shotgun behind the seat. You still have protection, but authorities are much less likely harrass than if you had a battle rifle in your vehicle. It is also less likely to alarm fellow citizens. The last thing you need is a SWAT team opening up on you because someone alerted the authorities that there was "Some guy looting with an assault rifle". Plus there are a multitude of ammuntion types for the shotgun for every purpose, including flares, shot for hunting birds and rabbits, slugs that can drop a moose, and the ever popular buckshot.
I look at it this way. The shotgun can pinch hit for a military-derived rifle, but a said rifle is going to have a much harder times replacing a shotgun.
TooTaxed
Member
OBXNED, I hear you loud and clear! And totally agree with you. I suggest that you learn how to handload as part of your precautions.
I think you need look no further than SKS's with side-mounted scopes or Car-15s. I have both, and, as the above posts say, each has its advantages...the SKS far less expensive (four SKS's for one AR?) and possibly more reliable (I still have bad memories of the AR jams we suffered in Vietnam, when we took up AKs...hopefully they've been improved?), tolerating poor maintenance much better...the Car-15 far more versatile and more accurate to long ranges, detachable magazines. Both are light in recoil and easy to operate by less-experienced women and children...with the SKS possibly having a slight edge. The SKS soft-nose cartridge may have a slight edge in hunting game. SKS ammo is mostly non-reloadable, while the AR cases are reloadable.
Let us know what you finally decide!
I think you need look no further than SKS's with side-mounted scopes or Car-15s. I have both, and, as the above posts say, each has its advantages...the SKS far less expensive (four SKS's for one AR?) and possibly more reliable (I still have bad memories of the AR jams we suffered in Vietnam, when we took up AKs...hopefully they've been improved?), tolerating poor maintenance much better...the Car-15 far more versatile and more accurate to long ranges, detachable magazines. Both are light in recoil and easy to operate by less-experienced women and children...with the SKS possibly having a slight edge. The SKS soft-nose cartridge may have a slight edge in hunting game. SKS ammo is mostly non-reloadable, while the AR cases are reloadable.
Let us know what you finally decide!
Zinj,
You make some good points and I agree with your assessment of having a shotgun. One thing people should also remember is that they want a shotgun with screw-in chokes. This makes hunting a lot easier.
I'm up in the air over the issue with police. It probably depends on your location. I do feel, whether right or wrong, that some military-styled weapons do carry an additional deterrent factor to them-- based on a lot of people's lack of understanding of the weapons. And for the large part, we NEVER SAW an LEO.
Realistically, you will not be far off your own property with any type of long firearm visible. You will keep that close, but not out for all to see. You'll be carrying your handgun on you when you are out and about.
During my 8 weeks of post-Katrina, I kept my AK-47 in my Jeep if I had to go anywhere. I made sure it was accessible but not easily visible. At home, it was always nearby, but you aren't carrying it (because you have work to do! It's hard to use a chainsaw and hold a rifle at the same time)
Now regardless of where I was, I carried a Glock 9mm on a belt holster. If I had to go somewhere in public, I concealed it, but never took it off. And I was just like everyone else in that regard. Even my wife's grandfather was carrying a .357.
Its something to think about. Realistically, you will be using your handgun a LOT more than any other firearm for protection-- simply out of convienence.
Planning for an TEOTWAWKI is requires a lot more planning in terms of making sure you have firearms that will fill specific roles such as hunting big verses small game. But hunting WILL be your most pressing concern.
I think we all harbor images of zombie hoardes or Red Dawn, but realistically it's not going to be like that. I had to confront looters 3 times in 8 weeks. It really wasn't a big deal-- as soon as they saw me, the ran like hell.
I've focused my arsenal towards meeting specific needs with firearms that also have a high capability of pulling double duty as a defense weapon. Then I determine what level of redundancy I need in those firearms to meet the needs of arming the people I will be with. Fortunatly, my entire family are gun-nuts, too.
All the best!
John
You make some good points and I agree with your assessment of having a shotgun. One thing people should also remember is that they want a shotgun with screw-in chokes. This makes hunting a lot easier.
I'm up in the air over the issue with police. It probably depends on your location. I do feel, whether right or wrong, that some military-styled weapons do carry an additional deterrent factor to them-- based on a lot of people's lack of understanding of the weapons. And for the large part, we NEVER SAW an LEO.
Realistically, you will not be far off your own property with any type of long firearm visible. You will keep that close, but not out for all to see. You'll be carrying your handgun on you when you are out and about.
During my 8 weeks of post-Katrina, I kept my AK-47 in my Jeep if I had to go anywhere. I made sure it was accessible but not easily visible. At home, it was always nearby, but you aren't carrying it (because you have work to do! It's hard to use a chainsaw and hold a rifle at the same time)
Now regardless of where I was, I carried a Glock 9mm on a belt holster. If I had to go somewhere in public, I concealed it, but never took it off. And I was just like everyone else in that regard. Even my wife's grandfather was carrying a .357.
Its something to think about. Realistically, you will be using your handgun a LOT more than any other firearm for protection-- simply out of convienence.
Planning for an TEOTWAWKI is requires a lot more planning in terms of making sure you have firearms that will fill specific roles such as hunting big verses small game. But hunting WILL be your most pressing concern.
I think we all harbor images of zombie hoardes or Red Dawn, but realistically it's not going to be like that. I had to confront looters 3 times in 8 weeks. It really wasn't a big deal-- as soon as they saw me, the ran like hell.
I've focused my arsenal towards meeting specific needs with firearms that also have a high capability of pulling double duty as a defense weapon. Then I determine what level of redundancy I need in those firearms to meet the needs of arming the people I will be with. Fortunatly, my entire family are gun-nuts, too.
All the best!
John
I don't see anything per se wrong with an SKS. It will do the job.
One thing we haven't really discussed may need to be brought up: Ammunition
It's true that you can get 7.62x39 cheaper if you get Wolf, etc. However, you are talking about Full Metal Jacket or the Hollow Points most likely. And Any caliber of Milsurp ammo will be Full Metal Jacket.
These will be very poor hunting rounds. They have no expansion to them. Your only option with a deer would be to get real good at head shots, or real good at following blood trails and hiking.
You will want a good supply of lead tipped hunting rounds. This doesn't come cheap, but can be made cheaper with reloading.
In addition, Wolf is steel case ammo and like Milsurp, is berdan primed. Its not impossible to reload berdan primed, but neither berdan primed nor steel cases are favorable to reloading. You really want Brass cases and boxer primed for reloading.
But again, it depends on the situation you are planning for. We didn't get to the point where we were hunting for food-- so my Wolf ammo served the purpose back then. Today, I am stocking both milsurp type ammo and reloadable hunting rounds.
All the best!
John
One thing we haven't really discussed may need to be brought up: Ammunition
It's true that you can get 7.62x39 cheaper if you get Wolf, etc. However, you are talking about Full Metal Jacket or the Hollow Points most likely. And Any caliber of Milsurp ammo will be Full Metal Jacket.
These will be very poor hunting rounds. They have no expansion to them. Your only option with a deer would be to get real good at head shots, or real good at following blood trails and hiking.
You will want a good supply of lead tipped hunting rounds. This doesn't come cheap, but can be made cheaper with reloading.
In addition, Wolf is steel case ammo and like Milsurp, is berdan primed. Its not impossible to reload berdan primed, but neither berdan primed nor steel cases are favorable to reloading. You really want Brass cases and boxer primed for reloading.
But again, it depends on the situation you are planning for. We didn't get to the point where we were hunting for food-- so my Wolf ammo served the purpose back then. Today, I am stocking both milsurp type ammo and reloadable hunting rounds.
All the best!
John
busy_squirrel
Member
+1
For that price, you could almost get one for each family member. That means only 1 caliber of ammo to buy.
toivo
Member
Clipper
Member
Well, I'm gonna break the mold here... First, I will second the Mosin-Nagant suggestion. At less than $100.00 each, with ammo as cheap as it is, you can outfit yourself and six kids, buy thousands of rounds, and not spend a grand. That takes care of long-distance threats, or threats behind walls & in vehicles. Now, as for what's most likely to happen around my home, as I live in an area of small township lots, I can't see needing a direct-fire weapon much beyond 100 yards, and mostly under 50. This makes my Hi-Point carbine a very viable weapon to protect my home. Mine wears an ATI stock and cheap reflex sight, and I don't have $250.00 into it, Ammo is cheaper than 22mag, and available everywhere. I routinely keep 5-600 rounds around the house. Of course we have several handguns around, and I always carry...
Hunting has been mention here, but I think that hunting in a SHTF situation is pretty limited.
For a rural area it does make some sense. The countryside is going to be lower on the list of humanitarian efforts than urban areas, and undeveloped land obviously has much more game on it.
In a suburban area the biggest issue is that there is a much higher human to game animal ratio. The fact that everyone with access to a gun is going to try hunting will result in game being hunted out or migrating from the area.
When there are more people in the field there is also a greater danger of hostile confrontations. It isn't hard to imagine shooting a deer, tracking it 150 yards away, then having some other guy come up as you are field dressing it saying "Hey, thats my deer!"
I'd say suburban areas are less vulnerable to food shortages anyway, whatever aid is coming down the pipeline will hit them first. All of those supermarkets and retail supercenters are full of supplies also, even if it is walking the line between trying to survive and looting.
In areas where hunting is a practical option, it still is pretty low on the cost to benefit ratio. It is an activity that takes lots of time with inconsistant reward. In the aftermath of a disaster, providing you keep reasonable supplies there will be much more important duties, like repairing your dwelling or any number of other tasks.
Firearm hunting is inefficient too, snares are much more practical. The time investment is much smaller (make the snares, place them, and check on them), and snares work without oversight. Snares are generally deployed for smaller animals, but they give a much more reliable yield.
In fact, a good strategy if you have the time for hunting is to set up a trail of for small game, then stalk or still hunt said trail with a gun capable of taking big game.
For a rural area it does make some sense. The countryside is going to be lower on the list of humanitarian efforts than urban areas, and undeveloped land obviously has much more game on it.
In a suburban area the biggest issue is that there is a much higher human to game animal ratio. The fact that everyone with access to a gun is going to try hunting will result in game being hunted out or migrating from the area.
When there are more people in the field there is also a greater danger of hostile confrontations. It isn't hard to imagine shooting a deer, tracking it 150 yards away, then having some other guy come up as you are field dressing it saying "Hey, thats my deer!"
I'd say suburban areas are less vulnerable to food shortages anyway, whatever aid is coming down the pipeline will hit them first. All of those supermarkets and retail supercenters are full of supplies also, even if it is walking the line between trying to survive and looting.
In areas where hunting is a practical option, it still is pretty low on the cost to benefit ratio. It is an activity that takes lots of time with inconsistant reward. In the aftermath of a disaster, providing you keep reasonable supplies there will be much more important duties, like repairing your dwelling or any number of other tasks.
Firearm hunting is inefficient too, snares are much more practical. The time investment is much smaller (make the snares, place them, and check on them), and snares work without oversight. Snares are generally deployed for smaller animals, but they give a much more reliable yield.
In fact, a good strategy if you have the time for hunting is to set up a trail of for small game, then stalk or still hunt said trail with a gun capable of taking big game.
zinj,
I can't disagree with your assessment at all. I had mentioned some of the hunting possibilies-- even though I agree with your assessment completely.
I added that because of the various degrees of SHTF people may wish to prepare for. Hunting would be needed to be addressed in a TEOTWAWKI (The End of The World as We Know It) situation. I consider that a VERY unlikely event in the best scenerio, and one that you will never completely be prepared for in the worst scenerio.
I tend to view SHTF more on a regional geographic level much like Katrina or the Winter storms in CO-- Not a global breakdown.
In rural areas, huntiing isn't that ineffecient, however. My grandfather grew up dirt-poor. He used to tell me that every morning, he was sent out to go kill squirrels or rabbits for breakfast. I personally think that my family would starve to death if they were waiting for me to bring home meat every day, but I suppose they faired better. He died at 98 years old.
I think we tend to think of hunting in a situation where pretty much EVERYTHING has been devastated. It won't hurt to prepare for a massive SHTF, but if it gets that bad, most of us would not have survived what caused it anyway.
All the best!
John
I can't disagree with your assessment at all. I had mentioned some of the hunting possibilies-- even though I agree with your assessment completely.
I added that because of the various degrees of SHTF people may wish to prepare for. Hunting would be needed to be addressed in a TEOTWAWKI (The End of The World as We Know It) situation. I consider that a VERY unlikely event in the best scenerio, and one that you will never completely be prepared for in the worst scenerio.
I tend to view SHTF more on a regional geographic level much like Katrina or the Winter storms in CO-- Not a global breakdown.
In rural areas, huntiing isn't that ineffecient, however. My grandfather grew up dirt-poor. He used to tell me that every morning, he was sent out to go kill squirrels or rabbits for breakfast. I personally think that my family would starve to death if they were waiting for me to bring home meat every day, but I suppose they faired better. He died at 98 years old.
I think we tend to think of hunting in a situation where pretty much EVERYTHING has been devastated. It won't hurt to prepare for a massive SHTF, but if it gets that bad, most of us would not have survived what caused it anyway.
All the best!
John
There is no denying that hunting can be the most productive method of aquiring food, but there are a lot of conditional factors that play into it. That is why I think of it a kind of a "bonus" activity. You cannot depend on hunting to provide for you, but if you are in the right situation it can make things much easier.
I think you have approached here one of the the problems that I have been thinking about lately, namely that SHTF is too broad a term.
I have seen many dissimilar topics all under the heading of SHTF. These include:
+ Natural Disasters
+ Societal Problems (riots and the like)
+ As a euphamism for having to carry out a home defense plan
+ Invasion of the U.S. by a hostile nation
+ Global Nuclear War
+ Millenialism and Apocalypse
+ Zombie Uprisings
+ The End of Western Civilization
+ Fighting the New World Order (or whatever conspiracy theory gets your blood pumping)
And so many more. That is why I think we need a new term to describe preparedness defined by logic. I think a good term would be Disaster/Crisis Situation, abbreiviated D/CS or DCS.
DCS covers events that have resulted in a general disruption of normal social structure and function for a particular area. Such events need to have a reasonable chance of occurring, and preparations should be a logical precaution.
Personal defense is a part of DCS, but getting mugged or a home invasion alone is not a DCS event, as it is not part of a greater societal disruption.
Preparing for an invasion of the United States is not a part of DCS. In the current world such an operation is is simply unfeasible. I think anyone who knows about military operations, economics or world politics would agree with me. Ditto for the fall of Western Civilization. Collapses occur over decades, if not hundreds of years. Even in the abscense of formal government social structures still form to provide for people's needs.
Millenialism and apocalyptic predictions were a significant force in survivalism, but they don't really have a place in DCS discussion. There are too many versions for the end of days, and how can we really know how to prepare for the end of the world?
Uber-catastrophes like Global Nuclear war are pretty much unprepareable. Even if you survive getting blasted there isn't going to be a hell of a lot to live on.
Lastly pulp novel stuff like zombies and conspiratory organizations doesn't have a place in a serious DCS plan.
So what is DCS?
+ Personal defense strategies dealing with areas where the law isn't a phone call away
+ Social unrest (often caused by other factors)
+ Natural disasters
+ Living through long term economic instability
+ Essentially how to survive when daily life is turned upside down
DCS covers a wide range of topics, but they all have a common thread and most preparations that are viable in many different situations. Basically the Disaster/Crisis Situation is SHTF boiled down to what most people are trying to achieve preparedness for.
Does anyone agree with my assessment?
Excellent post zinj!
I wholeheartedly agree that we'd be better off discussing things on various levels of severity.
I would be inclined to differientiate between "Personal defense strategies dealing with areas where the law isn't a phone call away" and other planning however.
I'd call that something like Immediate Crisis Management and include muggings, car trouble, home invasion, etc.
Disaster Planning would be more protracted, even if it is a matter of hours or days.
I say this because the planning would have some significant differences. An immediate threat wouldn't need provisions for a generator for example.
Now some will say that if you prepare for the Absolute Worst it can be, then anything less is a cake-walk. Maybe. But at the same time, you may find yourself wasting a lot of your precious resources being too extravigant in your planning.
I sometimes read a forum that really cracks me up. It is called:
http://zombiehunters.org/forum/
It is a forum that is planning for the inevitable zombie uprising. Now, seriously, no one there really believes in that stuff, but adding that fictional level to preparedness planning at least keeps it from becoming boring.
Its fun to read
John
I wholeheartedly agree that we'd be better off discussing things on various levels of severity.
I would be inclined to differientiate between "Personal defense strategies dealing with areas where the law isn't a phone call away" and other planning however.
I'd call that something like Immediate Crisis Management and include muggings, car trouble, home invasion, etc.
Disaster Planning would be more protracted, even if it is a matter of hours or days.
I say this because the planning would have some significant differences. An immediate threat wouldn't need provisions for a generator for example.
Now some will say that if you prepare for the Absolute Worst it can be, then anything less is a cake-walk. Maybe. But at the same time, you may find yourself wasting a lot of your precious resources being too extravigant in your planning.
I sometimes read a forum that really cracks me up. It is called:
http://zombiehunters.org/forum/
It is a forum that is planning for the inevitable zombie uprising. Now, seriously, no one there really believes in that stuff, but adding that fictional level to preparedness planning at least keeps it from becoming boring.
Its fun to read
John
Fat_46
Member
I'm of the personal opinion that the immediate need dictates the weapon and caliber.
SKS - cheap, and plentiful, and so is Wolf ammo. If SHTF no one is going to make fun of Wolf. I have an SKS and 500 rounds of Wolf in all 3 of the family vehicles
AR - Great platform if you know its care and feeding. I have 2 - one set up for mid range distances with a Nikon scope, and an M4gery with an ACOG. I also have 2k rounds of SS109 on hand, plus around 1k more of reloaded plinking rounds, and nearly always have the components on hand to make up another 1k or so
G3/HK91 - If you were fortunate enough to procure some of the SA or even Port surplus its a great platform. Heck, mine even gulps down Wolf like crazy...and you can still pick up new in wrapper 20 round mags very cheaply, and surplus used mags even cheaper
.22lr - I believe everyone should have a semi 22. If nothing else, its a great SHTF weapon to provide to someone in your group that may not have the strength to shoulder a heavier weapon, or maybe just doesn't like recoil and noise.
A bolt action, scoped rifle in a dependable, 400-600 yard caliber - for an extended SHTF, those deer are going to get mighty skittish mighty fast, and the ability to put accurate rounds downrange could make a huge difference
Handguns - revolvers are simpler, but semi-autos are jsut fine as well. Try to share calibers (10/22 with a MKII, for instance)
Now - they type of SHTF dictates which of the above I grab. A BU vs a BI, etc..
No easy or correct answer, you just have to figure out where your comfort level is, and equip accordingly
SKS - cheap, and plentiful, and so is Wolf ammo. If SHTF no one is going to make fun of Wolf. I have an SKS and 500 rounds of Wolf in all 3 of the family vehicles
AR - Great platform if you know its care and feeding. I have 2 - one set up for mid range distances with a Nikon scope, and an M4gery with an ACOG. I also have 2k rounds of SS109 on hand, plus around 1k more of reloaded plinking rounds, and nearly always have the components on hand to make up another 1k or so
G3/HK91 - If you were fortunate enough to procure some of the SA or even Port surplus its a great platform. Heck, mine even gulps down Wolf like crazy...and you can still pick up new in wrapper 20 round mags very cheaply, and surplus used mags even cheaper
.22lr - I believe everyone should have a semi 22. If nothing else, its a great SHTF weapon to provide to someone in your group that may not have the strength to shoulder a heavier weapon, or maybe just doesn't like recoil and noise.
A bolt action, scoped rifle in a dependable, 400-600 yard caliber - for an extended SHTF, those deer are going to get mighty skittish mighty fast, and the ability to put accurate rounds downrange could make a huge difference
Handguns - revolvers are simpler, but semi-autos are jsut fine as well. Try to share calibers (10/22 with a MKII, for instance)
Now - they type of SHTF dictates which of the above I grab. A BU vs a BI, etc..
No easy or correct answer, you just have to figure out where your comfort level is, and equip accordingly
I had quite a debate with myself as to the extent that personal defense enters DCS, but I realized that although the tactics of say, avoiding a carjacking or surviving a mugger are not in the scope of DCS, preparation for them is. Basically firearms and other weapons selection, maintainence, and other facets that have to be in place before such a situation occurs fall into DCS. Also, knowledge such as muffling a generator so theives are less likely to discover it fall into personal defense.
Thanks for the link to the zombie forum, I do like that kind of stuff, and zombie preparation is entertaining. The more annoying fantasy stuff falls along the lines of the guy who butts in how the U.N. is going to come in and disarm all of the gun owners so he is going to hide in the woods.
Basically I think this allows a higher quality of content on these threads.
Thanks for the link to the zombie forum, I do like that kind of stuff, and zombie preparation is entertaining. The more annoying fantasy stuff falls along the lines of the guy who butts in how the U.N. is going to come in and disarm all of the gun owners so he is going to hide in the woods.
Basically I think this allows a higher quality of content on these threads.
lee n. field
Member
- Joined
- Dec 29, 2002
- Messages
- 4,319
Forgive me, because I am ignorant of things AR, but does such a thing exist?
M110
Member
http://www.pof-usa.com/gaspistonuppers/gaspistonuppers.htm
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=124&t=310274
Couple others too, but you get the idea
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=124&t=310274
Couple others too, but you get the idea
smokin'n gun
Member
Why bother with a rifle at all?
When you can't shoot an Ak anymore, you can use it as a weapon itself. Barrel can poke, front sights can do a lot of damage or you can do moves like arm bars with it.
What can you shoot better with?
Spend a little more, get what works if necessary.
How much is your life worth?
:banghead:
When you can't shoot an Ak anymore, you can use it as a weapon itself. Barrel can poke, front sights can do a lot of damage or you can do moves like arm bars with it.
What can you shoot better with?
Spend a little more, get what works if necessary.
How much is your life worth?
:banghead:
Lobotomy Boy
Member
- Joined
- Feb 16, 2004
- Messages
- 2,449
I agree with this 100 percent. A good 12-gauge is the one weapon a person should have on hand in any disaster situation.
This may be true of city dwellers, who live isolated from one another, but the moment the S starts spraying from the F, I'm heading straight to my dad's farm. I can walk there in about four or five days in the worst case scenario, but I will be there. Between our neighbors and extended family, we'd take care of each other, and that would entail sharing ammo, just as we often do during hunting season. The most common calibers up there are .22lr, .30-06, and 12-gauge. Probably next in line would be .22 Magnum, .22-250, .223, .243, .270 .308, and 20-gauge. 5.56x39 would be a third-tier ammo, like .17 HMR, 410, 220 Swift, 7mm magnum, and 300 Magnum. Not too many people use the fancy new calibers, like the Winchester Short Magnums, though the .17 HMR is really starting to catch on and is moving up fast.
This probably varies form locale to locale, but that's just how it is with the people I hunt with in Marshall County, Minnesota. I value the availability of the first-tier calibers when hunting up there; they're available in any hardware store in every little town in rural Minnesota, and boxes of said ammo can be found in just about every pickup outside the Twin Cities metro area. This would be a consideration in a SHTF scenario.
What I meant was that the availability of ammunition in retail is going to be irrelevant, as most shops aren't going to be open in a crisis. The current off/on nature of the 7.62x39 supply shouldn't be the determining factor on what gun you buy, as you have to have the ammunition on hand when go-time comes around.
It does make sense to use common calibers, if you do get into an ammunition sharing situation. In my area 12 gauge and .22 long rifle are the most common, followed by twenty gauge and 9mm Parabellum (secondarily .45 ACP and .40 S&W too). Other calibers lag significantly behind these guns in ownership. Of the centerfire rifle calibers, .223 and 7.62x39 are near the top (centerfire rifle ownership isn't as widespread as deer can only be hunted with slug shotguns).
Lobotomy Boy
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I imagine local hunting regulations and types of wildlife determine the availability of ammo. In Minnesota rifles are only allowed for deer hunting in the northern half of the state--where I'm from. In the southern half deer hunters must use slugs. Because of that slugs and rifled shotgun barrels are common in the south but almost non-existent in the north. In Wisconsin and North Dakota .223 is allowed for deer, but not in Minnesota; hence .223 is more commonly used in Wisconsin and North Dakota. It's also more common in southern Minnesota, where there are a lot of coyotes. In northern Minnesota the wolf population tends to keep the coyote population in check so we don't do a lot of predator hunting.
It seems like 7.62x39 (I typed that in wrong earlier--I was watching "The Office" and got a little sloppy) used to be more common up north. A lot of guys bought SKSs in the 1980s and early 1990s, and the ammo used to be more readily available. I haven't been seeing it as much in recent years. I am seeing more AR-type guns, though, in both .223 and .308.
It seems like 7.62x39 (I typed that in wrong earlier--I was watching "The Office" and got a little sloppy) used to be more common up north. A lot of guys bought SKSs in the 1980s and early 1990s, and the ammo used to be more readily available. I haven't been seeing it as much in recent years. I am seeing more AR-type guns, though, in both .223 and .308.
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