Single Action vs. Double Action, Part II

[mikemyers]

This is a continuation of a thread I started last May, with the same title.
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=753339&highlight=mikemyers

A lot of that thread was about improving my S&W 357 Highway Patrolman, and with the help of lots of people here, it became a much more enjoyable and accurate firearm. Several weeks ago I had a gunsmith look over the gun, and make some additional small improvements. Another part of that thread was about how to get better precision when target shooting, and again, the advice helped a lot.

I've only been shooting once since last October - was out of the country, and only got to shoot one morning, two weeks ago, while visiting my brother.

So much for history.... now on to the new thread.


I went to the same gun range I usually go to, Florida Gun Center, an indoor range in Hialeah, Florida. I brought only my Model 41 S&W (a gun I bought back in the 1980's, which went to a relative a couple of years ago, and which I just bought back again) and a S&W Model 29 with 10 5/8" barrel, so I could finish sighting it in. I can see I need to start over again at getting tighter groups. I'll start on that in a few weeks - would just like to go to the range a few times with each of my guns, and just enjoy shooting them, before I get serious.

Anyway, on to the big revolver. I experienced the same thing I had noticed a year ago, on my smaller gun. No matter how well I get to shoot in Single-Action, invariably I do better as soon as I start shooting Double Action. To me, that's not logical, but it's very repeatable. My best guess is that I'm so busy "pulling the trigger" in DA mode, that I'm more likely to be surprised when it fires, and I'm less likely to jerk the gun one way or another. Here's two targets from today, the last ones I shot with each gun. They're from 15 yards, the longest distance my indoor range allows.







I did become aware of one "problem" today. The biggest difficulty I had, wasn't about holding the gun, or holding my breath, or focusing on the front sight - it was just "seeing" where the gun was pointed. With black sights, in front of a black blurred target, indoors, I found it very difficult to hold the gun centered on the target. Maybe it's because I've got 71 year old eyes, which have had their own issues. Maybe it's because i should get a new pair of shooting glasses. My only clue was that it was "easier" to aim at the large crosses that I made with a magic marker, than to aim at the 6" diameter targets I brought. Next time I go, I'll try 3" diameter targets.

 

[Black Knight]

If you are having problems seeing the front sight (black sight on black target) you may try painting the front sight a color you are able to see easily. When I was doing private security patrols in the 1980s I found I had difficulty seeing the front sight of my duty weapon at night. I used Liquid Paper correction fluid to paint the front sight and it worked perfectly. I now use gloss white enamel paint or similar to paint the front sight on the guns I carry at night.

 

[ColtPythonElite]

I use neon orange nail art polish. It comes with a finer brush than regular nail polish.

 

[J-Bar]

Many shooters, myself included, shoot better groups during rapid fire than during slow fire. I suspect we try to perfect the shot too long when shooting slowly. It would be interesting to see what kind of group you get with that Model 41 shooting it rapid fire.

If nothing else, it's an excuse to go shooting again!

 

[MrBorland]

Some people have trouble with a SA trigger because they jerk the trigger.

Some people have trouble with a DA trigger because they jerk the trigger.


As you discovered, many who do as well or better in DA feel they do so partly because there's less tendency to jerk the trigger.

As far as your front sight - try a 6 o'clock hold (sight picture #1 below). You'll have to adjust your rear sight, but for target shooting, it's a more precise sight picture, and gets rid of the black-on-black that makes seeing the front sight so difficult.


from pistol-training.com

It would be interesting to see what kind of group you get with that Model 41 shooting it rapid fire.

It'd be helpful if you defined "rapid fire".

 

[9mmepiphany]

No matter how well I get to shoot in Single-Action, invariably I do better as soon as I start shooting Double Action. To me, that's not logica

The reason it doesn't seem logical is the very reason it is true.

With the light SA press available, you know that you can press the trigger when the sights are perfectly aligned and you believe you can do that without disturbing the sight alignment with your trigger press. That is call an Anticipatory Flinch...more commonly known as a jerked trigger,

During a DA trigger stroke, your focus is staying in the process of rolling the trigger smoothly to the rear, rather then becoming invested in the result of the shot

 

[short barrel]

My dad taught me this 50 years ago. Put your bullseye target (he liked a 3" bull) on a cardboard box; however, turn the paper target over to where all you have is blank paper. Shoot at the center of that paper from whatever distance you chose. Your brain will help you align the sights to the exact center of the paper punch out the bulls eye. It teaches that you are apt to try too hard to align all three items (rear sight, front sight, bullseye. It also teaches that you cannot possibly be better at double action shooting than you are single action. In double action shooting, you let go of some of the immense concentration it takes to line it all up and squeeze off single action.

Regarding double vs. single, you can prove to yourself that single is absolutely better for tight groups. With your empty revolver, concentrate at a spot on your bedroom wall. Dry fire double action and watch for moved sight alignment in relation to the spot. Try it single action and see the difference.

Some people shoot better double action because anticipation of recoil is lessened. It's all in your brain.

 

[J-Bar]

It'd be helpful if you defined "rapid fire".

I shot in a bullseye league briefly...slow fire, timed fire, rapid fire. Most of my fellow shooters would finish the slow fire stage about as fast as the timed or rapid fire stage because they had found it led to better scores. When I started in the league, I was always the last shooter to finish the slow fire stage...took my time, tried to get an X every shot. But I found that I shot higher scores if I shot faster. Hard to explain, but it worked.

 

[MrBorland]

I shot in a bullseye league briefly

I suspected you were using the "bullseye" definition, which is is why I asked.

"Rapid fire" in bullseye competition is 5 shots in 10 seconds, no? Outside of formal bullseye competition, "rapid fire" is much quicker, so it's important to clarify.

 

[mikemyers]

......As you discovered, many who do as well or better in DA feel they do so partly because there's less tendency to jerk the trigger.

As far as your front sight - try a 6 o'clock hold (sight picture #1 below). You'll have to adjust your rear sight, but for target shooting, it's a more precise sight picture, and gets rid of the black-on-black that makes seeing the front sight so difficult.


......

Hmm.... I know it's something that I'm doing, as I don't think the gun cares one way or another. I only load 3 rounds, looking away from the gun as I load, so it will be obvious if I'm starting to jerk the trigger. I try to concentrate on pulling the trigger smoothly, and not anticipate when the gun might fire, and just like before, my results in DA are almost always better than SA. I wish I could say I never jerk the trigger, but it's still something I have to fight. .....which is a good reason to continue to shoot both SA and DA, as i want to be able to do both ways as well as I can.

I definitely will try to re-adjust the sights as you suggested. I noticed when I was shooting the "cross" that it was easier to line up the gun when the sights were aimed low. Your image makes that pretty obvious! I guess I "saw" the same thing while I was at the range, but didn't think it through - your image makes it obvious which way is better! ....at least for me.

Next time I go to the range, I'll print out some more of my own targets, which have a 3" diameter target, and a large white colored circle in the middle.

I'll have to think about painting the front sight - I don't think I'm ready to do that yet. Maybe I'm just stubborn, but I should be able to shoot better with the gun just the way it came.

I'm not all that thrilled with the results I got today, but I did have a lot of fun. It was nice to just fire off three rounds, then bring the target back to see how I did, adjust accordingly, and do it over and over and over again.

 

[mikemyers]

.......With the light SA press available, you know that you can press the trigger when the sights are perfectly aligned and you believe you can do that without disturbing the sight alignment with your trigger press........

Actually, it's the opposite. I know that it's useless to try to shoot when the sights look perfect, so all I now try to do is slowly apply pressure to the trigger which will fire "sometime", hopefully not when I'm expecting it.

My brain isn't that good at multi-tasking. I can either worry about the sight picture, or worry about what my trigger finger is doing. The best way I can explain this, is that I put my finger in motion, slowly increasing the pressure, and then try to not even think about it, only concentrating on trying to keep the proper sight picture. My trigger finger moves on its own, without my thinking about it. It's easier for me to do this in DA. Maybe that's because it takes more time for the trigger to reach the magic spot where the gun fires. It's almost as if some other part of my mind is controlling the trigger finger, just telling it to make one smooth movement, and all my concentration goes into constantly moving the sights back to where I want them to be.

 

[mikemyers]

.......Regarding double vs. single, you can prove to yourself that single is absolutely better for tight groups. With your empty revolver, concentrate at a spot on your bedroom wall. Dry fire double action and watch for moved sight alignment in relation to the spot. Try it single action and see the difference......

You are 100% correct. I tried exactly as you suggested, and yes, in SA I can line things up just perfectly and the gun goes "click" and I know that hole would be right in the middle of the bullseye. They I try it in DA, and the gun is wobbling all over the place, and I'm constantly trying to move it back to where I want the bullet to hit. So, when I finish up my dry-fire practice, I think just the way you describe it..... SA has to be more accurate...

........BUT, when I get to the range, for me, it always works out the opposite.


All that work trying to constantly correct the sights, as the gun wobbles and dances and whatever else, seems to work better for me than lining up the sights, and then slowly pulling on the trigger.

(It's silly to say it, so feel free to laugh at me, but actually, I feel like I've accomplished something more, when i shoot DA. SA feels too "easy" or something.... sort of like a shortcut. Equally importantly though, at least for me, my targets are better when I shoot DA.)

 

[mikemyers]

Many shooters, myself included, shoot better groups during rapid fire than during slow fire. I suspect we try to perfect the shot too long when shooting slowly. It would be interesting to see what kind of group you get with that Model 41 shooting it rapid fire.......

There was a video that Mr. Borland posted last year, that showed his rapid fire shooting in slow motion. What looked like a series or random shots, taken as quickly as possible, was very different in slow motion..... Incredible as it seemed to me, every one of his shots was carefully aimed (well enough to get him the best score).

Somebody can correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems foolish to me, for me to shoot multiple shots in "rapid fire" until I'm better at shooting single shots.

I was loading only 6 bullets into the magazine, and firing them very slowly. If you mean for me to speed up a little, I think that would be an interesting test. I suppose to do that better, I should put up two bullseyes next to each other, and alternate, shooting one bullet to the left, then to the right, and so on.

 

[Bezoar]

the rapid fire keeps you more consistent because your muscles arent being repositioned non stop. Sure the impact will waver, and youll start shooting that horizontal line.

But rapid fire can force your brain to focus on only one or two aspects. and leave the rest alone. Its like how some people can throw on the cruise control and be able to stay inside the yellow lines. And not have to weave all over the place because they cant regulate the speed with their foot, while working the steering wheel AND seeing whats on the road ahead of them.

 

[J-Bar]

I don't know what you are trying to accomplish by shifting from one target to the other for each shot...

Load 6 as you have been and instead of shooting them "very slowly", hold the gun on target and shoot all 6 without lowering the gun...maybe one shot every two or three seconds or so, still aiming and squeezing the trigger as best you can. I suspect you will be surprised at the results.

 

[Davek1977]

Its like how some people can throw on the cruise control and be able to stay inside the yellow lines. And not have to weave all over the place because they cant regulate the speed with their foot, while working the steering wheel AND seeing whats on the road ahead of them.

If you can't drive without using cruise control to take certain aspects of the experience away, you have no business being behind the wheel, period. I've never found rapid fire to be MORE conclusive to accuracy than slow fring,personally

 

[SVTOhio]

This may be unrelated and not handgun related. But I shoot my AR with milspec trigger that is laggy and about 8# better then my savage bolt gun 25-06 that has a a good crisp 2.5# trigger. I'm guessing I hold steadier while having a tighter grip on the firearm with my trigger finger. I have not shot a lot of DA and SA revolvers to notice the same trend with handguns.

 

[frgood]

I'll risk some speculation

[This is merely a theoretical guess]

I shoot a DAO handgun for EDC and a DA/SA for competition.

First, I'm surprised that cadence has not been mentioned. Not a fast rhytm but a constant regular shooting rhythm. The body, in motion, will drive towards your intent. Each subsequent shot you settle more into that rhythm. This leads to ...

Second, There may be more mechanical inclination in you. I mean, the DA action requires you to be active up to, through, and beyond the shot. As you draw the trigger your brain will further align your sight picture. Perfecting it until the bang. If you continue to follow through you will have a nice shot. This does not assume a slow and over thought trigger pull. You natural tendency is sufficient and you should learn to rely on that. That is mechanical learning.
I contrast that to SA where you may be trying to time your trigger pull with the cross hairs on target. Trying to 'catch' the target will have varied results.

Whereas, The rolling action of the DA let's you further refine your sight picture. The assumption is that once you start the trigger press you continue and not pause or jerk at the break.

 

[MrBorland]

in SA I can line things up just perfectly and the gun goes "click" and I know that hole would be right in the middle of the bullseye. They I try it in DA, and the gun is wobbling all over the place, and I'm constantly trying to move it back to where I want the bullet to hit. So, when I finish up my dry-fire practice, I think just the way you describe it..... SA has to be more accurate...

........BUT, when I get to the range, for me, it always works out the opposite.

As has been said many many times before, a huge part of shooting is mental. And your experience is a good example. When you know the gun's loaded with live ammo, a couple things happen. First, you anticipate recoil and blast. Secondly, you know these shots are actually going to produce holes in paper. You care about holes that're close together, so these shots seem more important than dry fire shots. Your mental energy, then, is on the goal of tight groups rather than the process of executing a shot perfectly. When you can, at a subconscious level, care more about the process than the goal, dry fire becomes more effective, and your results at the range greatly improve.

Regarding the wobble - ideally you shouldn't be seeing wobble between your front and rear sights. If you are, that's something to work on.

Wobble between the front sight and the target, though, is normal and you'll never get rid of it. Pushing the gun to get it back to center is not only futile, it makes things worse. Accept this type of wobble - if your front sight wobbles within the black target, your shot will be in the black if your front and rear sights are aligned. If your sights aren't aligned when the shot breaks, even a perfect hold over the x-ring won't be true.

There was a video that Mr. Borland posted last year, that showed his rapid fire shooting in slow motion.

Somebody can correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems foolish to me, for me to shoot multiple shots in "rapid fire" until I'm better at shooting single shots.

This is why I asked J-Bar for clarification. This isn't the type of rapid fire he's referring to. And no, you shouldn't be doing this. Yet. J-Bar's making the point that holding too long trying to align everything perfectly is often counterproductive.

Reread my earlier post - you'll see that the Rapid Fire J-Bar refers to is a shot every 2 seconds. Bullseye Slow Fire is a minute per shot and J-Bar's point was that people who take that full minute often do worse than had they taken less. You don't need a minute to make an excellent shot, so anything more than you need is extra opportunity for counterproductive things to happen.

Just see what you need to see when you need to see it, then break the shot cleanly. Whether shooting for speed or pure accuracy; rifle or pistol, it's the secret formula for all forms of shooting.

 

[MrBorland]

My brain isn't that good at multi-tasking. I can either worry about the sight picture, or worry about what my trigger finger is doing.

No one's brain can multi-task very well. You can't consciously think of sight picture and trigger pull together (nor can you think about sight picture while thinking and wanting a good tight group ). Eventually, through practice, the trigger press becomes automatic via your subconscious. It's kind of freaky, but if you practice enough, you might get to the point to when you "see" what you need to see, the gun will seem to fire itself. It gives a whole new meaning to "surprise break".

Until you get to the point of having your trigger pull controlled by your subconscious, you just have to do your best. And keep practicing. This is where quality dry fire shines. And it does need to be quality dry fire, lest you hardwire a herky-jerky trigger pull.

 

[drband]

I find this thread extremely helpful. I am learning to shoot a DA revolver after starting out on striker-fired and 1911s.
Side benefit: the more I practice with the revolver, the better I seem to shoot the others... I did not anticipate that effect. [emoji41]
Thanks for the detailed analyses above!

 

[mikemyers]

To answer a few things from up above....

"Rapid Fire" discussion - with the Model 41, I am probably taking a shot every one and a half, to two seconds. It's a pretty even time between shots. I don't know if that is too fast or too slow, but it feels very natural, not "rushing" or "waiting too long". It's about the same amount of time it takes me to fire the larger guns, from the time I first aim the gun at the target, to the time it fires.


Thanks to a whole lot of dry fire, I finally got to where my trigger finger will do what it's supposed to do, moving slowly and smoothly, without my thinking about it at all. I guess it's like shifting a car between gears - it just "happens" with little thought, once you've done it a few trillion times.


Wobble - maybe I'm using the wrong word. My sights mostly stay aligned, but to me it seems like a constant "effort" to keep the gun aimed at the middle of the target. I used to watch my dad drive, and noticed that the car was going "straight", but he was moving the steering wheel constantly. I don't know how to put this into words, and the gun (like the car) doesn't seem to move very much, but I know I'd doing "something" to keep the gun aimed where I think it should be. Same thing with dry firing.


Anticipation - long ago, I'd load 6 rounds in my revolver. Then it was 5, so I'd notice if I was flinching when I reached that empty chamber. Then I started loading only 3 rounds, randomly, so I never know if I'm "dry firing" or the gun will go off. .....and if I ever do think I "know" what the next trigger pull will mean, I spin the cylinder a bit, so I no longer know that. Sometimes I only load one or two rounds. When I pull the trigger on an empty cylinder, and the gun doesn't move, I'm pleased. If I start to notice it is moving, I try to fight against it, even if it means dry-firing lots of times until I'm back into the proper habit.


"I don't know what you are trying to accomplish by shifting from one target to the other for each shot..." .....I haven't done this yet, but one of my goals is to be able to shoot at multiple targets, the way Mr. Borland showed in his videos last year. I haven't yet been to a range that will let me do this, but I can "cheat" and put two bullseyes on one backing board, and start learning how. (I can't see any reason NOT to do this; plus, it sounds like something enjoyable to learn how to do.)


"Cadence" ......sounds like what I'm trying to do, as that helps make the "firing" more automatic, requiring little or no thought, and allows me concentrate only on the front sight. Everything else seems like a "distraction" almost. I guess I've been doing what you suggest, without stopping to even think about why I do it.


"When you know the gun's loaded with live ammo, a couple things happen. First, you anticipate recoil and blast. Secondly, you know these shots are actually going to produce holes in paper. You care about holes that're close together, so these shots seem more important than dry fire shots. Your mental energy, then, is on the goal of tight groups rather than the process of executing a shot perfectly. When you can, at a subconscious level, care more about the process than the goal, dry fire becomes more effective, and your results at the range greatly improve." .....as best I know how, I've been working on that for a year now. I have lots of empties in my gun when possible, so I KNOW if I'm jerking the trigger. I've somewhat automated my trigger pull, especially in DA, so I can't "anticipate" the shot. I no longer deliberately "over think" each shot - I just try to let my fingers and hands do what they did in dry-fire, while keeping the front sight centered on the target. (That last part was difficult yesterday, because it was so dark, and I couldn't "see" the target that well, as most of it was covered up by the gun. Will try to improve that by using the sight picture you suggested).

 

[mikemyers]

......Wobble between the front sight and the target, though, is normal and you'll never get rid of it. Pushing the gun to get it back to center is not only futile, it makes things worse. Accept this type of wobble - if your front sight wobbles within the black target, your shot will be in the black if your front and rear sights are aligned. If your sights aren't aligned when the shot breaks, even a perfect hold over the x-ring won't be true.........

Very interesting. I just assumed I was constantly adjusting the gun, to keep it centered, but maybe things are as you say. I've never tried to "accept" it. Maybe if I go to the range on Friday, I'll try to ignore it, and see what happens. I'm pretty sure I'm now constantly doing "something" to correct for the wobble, or whatever I should call it. I'm not physically actually "moving" the gun, but I think I'm maybe varying the pressure in my grip to keep the gun pointed at the middle of the target. Maybe not - it's difficult to put it into words. The best way I can describe it, is what I do with the steering wheel on my car, to keep the car going "straight". There are non-stop minor corrections. I just do that without thinking about it. Or, drawing a straight line with a pencil. As I start to draw, I'm constantly making "corrections". Very, very tiny, but still corrections. I can stop it, by drawing the line with my eyes closed - but that rarely results in a perfectly straight line...... Need to think about this some more.

Keeping the front and rear sight aligned properly seems "easier". Once I get them lined up, they tend to stay that way now. That's different from keeping the blurry target directly in line with the front sight.....

 

[MrBorland]

I used to watch my dad drive, and noticed that the car was going "straight", but he was moving the steering wheel constantly. I don't know how to put this into words, and the gun (like the car) doesn't seem to move very much, but I know I'd doing "something" to keep the gun aimed where I think it should be.

Though we move the steering wheel to keep the car straight, we do so subconsciously. And even then, there's wobble. If there weren't, there wouldn't be any need to continuously adjust the steering wheel after our first adjustment.

Likewise, whether we know it or not, we already control our wobble as best we can through visual input and our subconscious. If you put a piece of paper between your gun and the target, your wobble would go up quite a bit. Adding conscious effort to limit wobble makes things worse, just as it would make for a very unsteady car ride.

You'll get steadier and your wobble more predictable as you continue to improve, but then and now, you must fully relax (physically and mentally) and accept the wobble. This is what even world-class target shooters do. Trust. Shooting well's an act of faith.

 

[mikemyers]

......you must fully relax (physically and mentally) and accept the wobble. This is what even world-class target shooters do. Trust. Shooting well's an act of faith.

I never thought of it that way. Totally the opposite of what I do now. Fascinating - I will do this from now on. In all the discussions and books and articles, I don't think anyone has ever mentioned this. Thanks!