Single Action vs. Double Action, Part II

[MrBorland]

As I read these, I picture just shooting at a blank piece of paper, with no bullseye, no lines, nothing other than a big rectangular piece of paper. Unless you're going to check where the holes are though, why have any "target" at all? Why not shoot at nothing? If I did what you're suggesting, with that piece of paper in front of me, at some point I'd have a desire to see my grouping. If I didn't want to be doing that, it seems to me that I should just shoot at nothing, no backing board, no target, just the dirt back-stop behind where the targets go.....

Very perceptive.

Since I believe the value of the drill is to forget about groupings for a bit, I normally do recommend the drill be done without any target, but some indoor ranges might get weirded out seeing you shoot without some target hung. And if the back wall is dark, it might be tough to see your sights well without the contrast.

J-Bar's method has a slightly different objective - by removing a black bullseye, you remove a reference, so you don't notice the wobble as much and are able to focus on executing the shot. The point here is that so long as you execute the shot well, you might (or might not) surprisingly good groups despite the wobble.

If you hang a blank piece of paper, you need to decide ahead of time what your objective is and whether you're shooting for groups or not.

Mr. Borland indicated it might be good to forget about groups for a bit

I didn't say that, exactly. I was trying to emphasize that focusing on the process of executing the shot well (rather than on group size) is where the pay dirt is, so if one needs to get their head back into the process, the "no target" drill is an option.

 

[mikemyers]

......focusing on the process of executing the shot well (rather than on group size) is where the pay dirt is.......

My brain quite often "sees" things differently than what others see. It comes up with reactions to all sorts of things, sometimes useful, and sometimes seemingly not. As I read your last post, I though of someone trying to draw a straight line with a pencil, first, by looking at the line very closely as it's being drawn using a powerful magnifying glass so you can see exactly what the pencil is doing, and second, to stand back a ways, and just pay attention to the whole line. The first way is seeing a tiny part of the line very closely (individual holes in a group), and the other way is seeing the whole line (the group of holes).

I don't think the first method (either line or holes) is effective. The second way would be more effective in getting a straighter line (or a grouping).

Then there is yet another way to draw the line, with blinders on, so I can't even see the line.

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Do any of you have any drills to correct one's tendency to move the gun as a reaction to the expected recoil? The best I know, is to only load two or three bullets out of the six shots from my revolver. If the gun moves at all on an empty chamber, I know I still have this problem. It's then a question of what to do about it - and the only thing I know how to do, is start to dry-fire for a while, and get my body back into the better habit of not moving at all. The more I dry-fire, the less of a problem this seems to be, and the better my groups are.

 

[MrBorland]

You're waaay overanalyzing.

The "process" of a good shot is to see a good sight picture and pull the trigger without affecting the sight picture. Simple as that.

Focusing on the process rather than the goal simply means to put your focus on doing that well, rather than on how the group's shaping up.

I might want to climb Mt Everest. That's the goal. It's a fine goal. But putting my mental energy there ain't gonna get me there. Putting a tangible plan in action and putting one foot in front of the other will.

Mind the process, and goal takes care of itself. Good sight picture & trigger control, and the group will take care of itself.

 

[BCRider]

The objective isn't to hit the circle, or even the square. It is to gauge the consistency of the trigger management of each shot...it is a diagnostic tool

I'd love to know how you evaluate the sheet afterwards. If I make up a "target" exactly as you've described it, and take one shot at each square, and post it here, would you be willing to suggest what it indicates to you?

Mike, your response shows that you totally missed the reason for this drill as 9mm runs it. The target in this case means nothing. The point is to shift the shooter's mind to other things so that 9mm can watch how the shooter is holding the gun and pulling the trigger. The target just gives the shooter something to focus on so they don't feel self conscious about having someone looking at their trigger finger action and so they shoot more naturally.

We're well past the idea of some miracle target or other setup issue suddenly making you shoot dime size groups at 20 yards. Analyzing the methods is fine up to a point. But at this point you've got all the advice "tools" that anyone can give you. Anything further for hints is just moving the furniture around needlessly. Instead it's time to just go and shoot.

Now of course you want to monitor your shooting. And you want to try little shifts of your grip and trigger finger to see if you can find the "happy place" for your gun in your hands. And of course there's the ever present battle of beating away Ol' Man Flinch. But these are all things that are only going to come to you from actually shooting.

Dry firing and philosophical pondering over nuances can only do so much. And I'm pretty sure it's safe to say that we hit that point some time back. A lot of the replies in this thread are looking darn similar to the ones in your last thread. So we're re-hashing the same ground.

So I figure that now it's time to do your part in working at building up a box of spent casings similar to MrBorland's picture.

 

[MrBorland]

BC's got it.

At some point, additional analysis offers no additional benefit. You've got the tools, so now it's just a matter of putting quality trigger time in. Be patient with yourself in the process. It doesn't come quickly, as that box testifies.

 

[mikemyers]

I did miss the point of that exercise, as I got to thinking of it as a fun thing to do.

All the advice up above is good, sound advice, and there's nothing to disagree with, just a need to go out and "do". I feel the same way about Albert League's book "The Perfect Pistol Shot" which I just re-read today from beginning to end.

 

[mikemyers]

BC's got it.

At some point, additional analysis offers no additional benefit. You've got the tools, so now it's just a matter of putting quality trigger time in. Be patient with yourself in the process. It doesn't come quickly, as that box testifies.

Went to the range today. I had a hand written note in front of me with the following:

• Fundamentals, not groups
• thumbs off the gun
• breath control
• ignore everything except front sight
• press trigger smoothly - and follow-through
• left hand supports weight of gun and right arm
• shoot lollipop

I used my own targets (work for NRA or CEP), which don't allow me to see my hits until I bring the target back to me. With the Model 41, I shot only five rounds per magazine. With the Model 28, only three bullets randomly placed in cylinder.

Following all that advice, I did the best today I've ever done, and came scary close to the goal I set so long ago. I stopped shooting when my arm started to feel tired.

Today's targets:
http://www.sgrid.com/2015/March%202%202015%20targets.jpg


I should add that when I didn't read my notes, and forgot one of the things I was telling myself to do, my results suffered. Also the suggestions from the book don't replace anything in the "fundamentals", they just reinforce them. Simply shifting the weight of gun and arm to the support hand, left the shooting hand free to do exactly what it was supposed to do. For me at least, that seems to make a big difference.

 

[MrBorland]

Following all that advice, I did the best today I've ever done, and came scary close to the goal I set so long ago.

I don't even have to look at the targets to say "good!". This is what it's about.

I stopped shooting when my arm started to feel tired.

Good decision. There's little point in wasting ammo just to train yourself to shoot less than your best. Shoot only until you can't shoot your best. Never shoot once you've become fatigued and sloppy.


As to your targets, they look good. All of them roughly 3"ish or better. What distance?

And your groups with the Model 28 (DA I presume?) are generally similar in size to your groups with a .22. That tells me the additional recoil isn't getting in your head. Excellent. Keep up your solid routine and those cloverleafs will be yours eventually.

 

[mikemyers]

As to your targets, they look good. All of them roughly 3"ish or better. What distance?

And your groups with the Model 28 (DA I presume?) are generally similar in size to your groups with a .22. That tells me the additional recoil isn't getting in your head. Excellent. Keep up your solid routine and those cloverleafs will be yours eventually.

Distance was 15 yards. That's the longest I can shoot at this range.
Yes, Model 28, Double Action.

I just checked, and I shot 75 shots with the Model 41. The Model 28 was more recoil, but even when I started to get tired, I noticed (when I tried to fire an empty chamber) that I still wasn't flinching.

(I didn't know I had an audience. At the range, I had asked the instructor for the CCW course what time I should be ready, and he said in a couple of hours. Unknown to me, a while later he was behind me when I was shooting, watching. When I came to see him to take the course, he said there was no need for me to shoot - he had already seen everything he needed to see. He also complimented me on shooting safely. I didn't expect that. I just do what I've been taught, and read about.)

 

[Peter M. Eick]

Very interesting thread. I did a similar experiment a while back.



50 shots, 15 yrds, hot 2400 reload with 158's shot Single Action



50 shots, 15 yrds, hot 2400 reload with 158's shot Double Action.

I found I could shoot better in single action than I could double action. Single action I could chose when I was going to drop the shot while in Double action I was steering the gun to the target when it finally fired. The difference was not that great, but I could see that for me the single action would be the way to go.

These were shot with my 1939 Registered Magnum by the way. It was the 1939 Prize gun from Camp Perry and the winner speced it out. He made some great choices I think.

 

[mikemyers]

Very impressive, both your shooting and the test - and also the gun! The difference between DA and SA is what I would have expected to notice long ago, but for me, with whatever limitations my ability produces, it's the opposite.

Again, VERY impressive!!!

 

[MrBorland]

Single action I could chose when I was going to drop the shot while in Double action I was steering the gun to the target when it finally fired.

This is important, methinks. Another way of phrasing this is that you just broke the shot in SA, but were consciously trying to put the gun somewhere when shooting DA. And the results weren't as good. Recall we discussed this earlier in the thread, mike: Accept the wobble. Even a good shooter doesn't do as well when they don't.

 

[mikemyers]

You proved that point to me, as my shooting improved when i put my trigger finger on auto-pilot, and just started increasing pressure on the trigger (while I was trying to keep the gun on-target). Doing it that way, I don't "know" when the gun is going to fire, and I'm surprised each time it does.

I've accepted that what I need now is a lot of practice. That, and weight training for my hand(s).

I'm still amazed by the videos you posted of shooting at multiple targets, and I've never seen anyone at any range I've been to, producing targets like the ones Peter just posted. At any rate, I'm now enjoying going shooting, and while it's still "a challenge", it's also a lot of "fun"! I doubt you realize how much of a help YOU have been!!

 

[MrBorland]

I'm still amazed by the videos you posted of shooting at multiple targets, and I've never seen anyone at any range I've been to, producing targets like the ones Peter just posted.

If you get a chance, go out to watch some matches (bullseye pistol, USPSA and/or Steel Challenge) in your area. Or just search youtube. There's a whole world of shooting outside internet forums and public ranges.

At any rate, I'm now enjoying going shooting, and while it's still "a challenge", it's also a lot of "fun"!

This is what it's all about.

 

[BCRider]

Nothing more to add but a hearty "WELL DONE!!".

OK, next goal is 2 inches. Get on with it!

 

[mikemyers]

Thanks! That's the plan.

In the back of my mind, I still think I need a fully qualified gunsmith to fix what still bothers me, the fact that pulling the trigger in DA is so "rough". I still think I need a new cylinder lock, as mine seemed damaged, and while the last "gunsmith" to work on the gun said all was fine, when asked, told me he never took that pat out to even look at it.

I went to the range yesterday with two guns, the Highway Patrolman, and my new (to me) High Standard target gun. With the 28, horizontally my grouping on two targets was under 2", but it was well over 3" vertically. It may or may not be the reason, but while I had minimal trouble centering the front sight under the rear sight, I couldn't really tell how "level" they were. I think that the next time I go, I will try shooting this gun "lollipop" style as well.

I also shot the High Standard. It has a red dot sight on it, which I think is "cheating". The holes in paper always appeared where the dot had been, except when there was one huge hole in the target. Out of 31 shots, all but 11 made me feel pretty good.

The red dot starts out being very "frisky", but as I continue to use the gun, it gets a lot more stable. It's from a Tasco ProPoint PDP3ST sight. I ordered a manual, so I'll be better able to center the sight. Here's the results of the final target with 31 rounds through it:
http://www.sgrid.com/2015/HS%20March%204,%202015.jpg

The "overall" grouping matches what I saw the red dot doing. I was trying to fire when it was reasonably stable over the center. First time I've ever used a sight like this. As far as I'm concerned, it won't replace what I'm trying to do with iron sights, but it sure was fun! Oh, and no shooting glasses - ordinary distance prescription glasses. ....I stopped after the four targets I shot, as I ran out of .22 ammo. Packed things away, and went back to the Model 28. (The 10 or 11 shots that were "low" bother me, but don't make me any less happy to have put 20 (or 21) shots into that one big cluster near the top.)

 

[MrBorland]

An optic is nice, particularly if you've got vision issues, but they make the wobble more apparent, so the temptation to time the shot & jerk the trigger goes up. An optic doesn't change the process, though, so you still gotta trust & accept the wobble and break the shot cleanly.

Another issue can be the use of those ShootNC targets - they really tempt you to peek at the target, which is an accuracy killer. Likewise, shooting a lot of rounds & creating a big hole tempts you to peek.

BTW, maybe you already told me, but what ammo are you using for your M28?

 

[BCRider]

If you're still using the stock springs I can heartily suggest the Wolff spring kit and using the lightest rebound spring. It's surprising how this reduces the DA pull and even more amazing at how light it makes the SA pull.

I even went one more step and cut off 1.5 coils from the lightest rebound spring. This makes the trigger pull even lighter. But at the cost of trigger return speed. But I'm not Jerry Miculek so I'm not about to outrun the trigger return speed any time soon.

It may be possible that your gun just needs a proper detail cleaning. It may be time to pull the side cover and get into the guts. But if you're going to own the gun for a good long time then a trip to a good S&W smith for some slicking up will really make you smile when it comes back. There isn't enough "o's" in "smoooooooooth" to describe a well tuned S&W revolver. See if you can find a smith that's well known for their PPC S&W's

 

[mikemyers]

......ShootNC targets.......really tempt you to peek at the target, which is an accuracy killer. Likewise, shooting a lot of rounds & creating a big hole tempts you to peek.

BTW, maybe you already told me, but what ammo are you using for your M28?

Actually, I was using my normal distance glasses, so the target was crystal clear. I didn't have to peek, as I saw the holes appear. I read that "red dot sights" are designed for eyes focused on "infinity", so I don't know any way around that.

I did print out a dozen targets before I got to the range, but then I thought I ought to use the shoot-n-see at least once, as it was my first time shooting that gun. Why did I keep using them? I guess both because I just wasn't "into it" yesterday, and also because it "was fun".

Yesterday's ammo was "Remington UMC Target 38 Special 130 GR MC LN38S11". I plan to reload them, using Unique powder and the lightest load suggested in the Lyman book as an appropriate starting point. I helped my brother load three shells with those settings on his new Dillon press, and they were very enjoyable to shoot. This was with his gun, not mine.

The next time i go, I think I will load my gun with either one or two shells (not watching), randomly spin the cylinder, and then follow all the advice that worked so well before, shooting at my targets (I can't tell where the hits are, even if I try). I think I'll keep shooting that way for a while, and maybe if I like the results, load three shells, so half my shots will be an empty cylinder. The front sight shouldn't move at all when the hammer drops, and as long as that's what I see, I'll continue to practice.

 

[mikemyers]

If you're still using the stock springs I can heartily suggest the Wolff spring kit and using the lightest rebound spring. It's surprising how this reduces the DA pull and even more amazing at how light it makes the SA pull.........It may be possible that your gun just needs a proper detail cleaning. .........There isn't enough "o's" in "smoooooooooth" to describe a well tuned S&W revolver. See if you can find a smith that's well known for their PPC S&W's

Earlier, with a lot of help (and warnings) I received in the original thread, I went through everything I could, and made it "better", but it still wasn't smooth. I posted photos of the cylinder stop, which had a big notch in it. I bought a new cylinder stop later, but thinking I had nothing to lose, I worked on the original "notch" until the roughness was barely noticeable. That made the gun much better, and a lot of use helped too, but to me it's not what I would call "smoooooth". How about with one "o"? Smoth. I think that's what I'm going to call it. I had the privilege of dry-firing two Performance Center guns at a gun shop, and they were "smooth" with all the "o" letters I can fit on the screen.

Not being satisfied with my gun, I asked the gunsmith at another range to check it out. He's not a licensed gunsmith, but he does the work for people at that range. He cleaned and lubricated it, and told me a few things he smoothed out, but he never touched the cylinder lock.

By the way, it already has the Wolff Main Spring, with the "middle" strength return spring installed.

(I edited what I wrote earlier. When I was sitting at my workbench cleaning the gun half an hour ago, it felt perfectly smooth. It's only when I'm at the range, trying to hold the gun still, that it "seems" like there is resistance in the trigger pull, which I'm fighting. Maybe it's just my imagination or something..... )


I'm not sure how to even find a suitable gunsmith, and when I ask people at the range, they check out my gun and tell me it's perfect. Having tried the Performance Center guns, I *know* my gun is not perfect.

(Edited again - it doesn't feel anything as bad as what it used to feel like, and sitting at the workbench after re-assembling it after a cleaning, I'm happy with it. It's ME that needs the practice, to get better, NOT the gun. Sorry for bringing this up again...... .....and if I pull the trigger at a reasonable rate, there is no "roughness".

 

[Peter M. Eick]

38/44 Outdoorsman, Post-war, Glossy finish, with target grips, hammer and trigger. 50 shots, 15 yrds offhand.

Mike,

You commented above that you never saw folks shoot like this at your ranges. I suggest you go to competitions where I have see folks do targets like what I do at 15 yrds, but at 50. YIKES! they are good. It is really a treat to watch bullseye 50 yrd shooters drop round after round into a 2" group at 50 yrds with such ease it makes me appalled.

I really made a concerted effort starting in 95 to work on my shooting. I was not good at all back then so I started at 5 yrds and shot only 50 shot groups. Dump a box into a target both single action and double action and you will see how good of a shooter you are REALLY. Its embarrassing. 50 shots shows grip changes, mag changes, shooter fatigue etc. All of it combines into a bad shot or many bad shots that ruin a 50 shot group. That is why I shoot them. I try to learn from every shot and really learn how to shoot well.

Since 95 I have shot 303,165 rounds and prior to 2014 I was averaging 16,717 rounds a year (yes I am meticulous about records and tracking what I am doing to be a better reloader and shooter). The point I am trying to make is my skills did not improve until I shot more, I was improving pretty linearly with the amount of trigger time I put in per year. Now, after a year and a half hiatus or slow period I am starting to shoot again and work on my skills.

What I do is try to get out routinely, 3 to 4 times a month, popping 400 to 700 rounds (centerfire and 22) per session and just focus on one thing each time. Always 50 shot groups, always on paper (unless I just want to play and shoot steel. Can't be business everyday). So last week I focused just on trigger control, breaking the shot in double action mode exactly where I wanted it. Previously I just focused on front sight and calling the shot. Where exactly did it go and what sight picture did I have at the break.

Focus on one thing and one thing only, do it hundreds of times in a row correctly and over time the whole skills come up. Keep in mind I am not a combat, IPSC or IDPA shooter. Too old for running and gunning and I have given up on bullseye. Eyes are too bad to really compete. So in the end I compete against ME. My goal is to beat what I did last week. I can always do better, I just have to practice.

So there is a very long winded philosophical view on shooting and training from a hack shooter.

 

[mikemyers]

........prior to 2014 I was averaging 16,717 rounds a year........

Hmmm.... that's well over a thousand rounds a month. Everyone says practice is essential.

One question - once someone reaches your ability, and there is one big hole for 50 shots, how will you ever get better if you can't see where your shots went?

I will be quite pleased when my targets look like that, but I know myself too well - I'll then want to get even better!

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Each time I go to the range, I shoot 100 to 200 shots total. If I start getting "tired", I stop. Some days that happens earlier than others. I've decided that I'm just going to worry about what Mr. Borland calls "the fundamentals", and concentrate on one shot at a time, and forget about groups, at least while shooting. I guess, in my words, I want to concentrate on "the means to an end", rather than just "the end".

 

[Peter M. Eick]

Simple, I move the target back further is how I spread the shots out so I can see where they are going and work at it again.

When I wound down my shooting in 14, I was just transitioning to shooting all my targets at 25 yrds instead of 15.

Basically I am back at 15 yrds, will work up until I can keep them all in the 9 ring then move the same target back to 25 yrds and work on it until I master 25 yrds. If I can master 25 yrds then I will move it back to 50 so I can start competing with the bullseye boys but frankly, I don't think my eyes are good enough.

Yes I shoot about 1000 to 1500 rounds a month on normal times. That is why I reload. Lots of lead bullets go out of my guns. Mostly MBC and Lasercast.

I should add. I don't consider myself a good shooter. Go to a bullseye match or IPSC event and see some good shooters. Those guys are amazing. Same thing for the benchrest boys. I am a rank novice compared to a even a decent bullseye shooter. I don't even own a single rifle that could even remotely be competitive at some of our local benchrest shoots.

 

[murf]

front sight, press, repeat.

murf

 

[chezdog]

I can't remember the last time I cocked a revolver. I suppose that I might do it if I felt the need to shoot a small varmint at a distance.