Single Action vs. Double Action, Part II

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perhaps i dont know how i shoot. Perhaps im the only one who can cut group size by HALF when shooting DA as fast as possible.
 
mikemyers said:
I never thought of it that way. Totally the opposite of what I do now. Fascinating - I will do this from now on. In all the discussions and books and articles, I don't think anyone has ever mentioned this.

Once you start digging, you'll inevitably hit upon this concept. Here's an excerpt from the great Paul Weston's article in The Pistol Shooter's Treasury (a very good resource, btw):

"No one can hold a revolver on any certain point on a target. In aiming a firearm, it is necessary to fully realize that an aiming point is in reality an aiming area...

...The belief that you must hold on an aiming point is very harmful to the new shooter; he will try to do something that is just not possible...

...a novice shooter should realize that he cannot hold a gun steady, but that he can hold it steady enough to confine the movement of his sights to an area. In the beginning, a newcomer to shooting can hold well within a ten to twelve-inch circle at 25 yards. If he aligns his sights properly, presses on the trigger in such a manner that the let-off is good, and aims within such a circle, all his shots will hit in that area; and since that area is equal to the area of the eight-ring, approximately, he should score at least 80%. Remember, too that if all shots score within the diameter of the eight ring, some of necessity must be nines and tens. A score of 80% or better for all shots fired is accurate shooting.
"


Just as I said earlier: See what you need to see when you need to see it, and break the shot cleanly. You can do no better. To try is to attempt something that's simply beyond our skill level. We increase our skill level by improving our execution of this mantra. Most everything else is a futile outside attempt to bypass it.
 
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Bezoar said:
perhaps i dont know how i shoot. Perhaps im the only one who can cut group size by HALF when shooting DA as fast as possible.

Well, show us your groups, and we'll be happy to tell you whether you know how to shoot. :rolleyes:
 
......"No one can hold a revolver on any certain point on a target. In aiming a firearm, it is necessary to fully realize that an aiming point is in reality an aiming area......"


  • For a novice shooter, they're probably happy just to hit the backing board, let alone a target attached to it.
  • For me today, I'd like to get 15 shots into a two inch diameter grouping.
  • To the sharp-shooters we occasionally get to read about, they may want to shoot out a match, or slice a playing card in half.

The idea of shooting at an "area", not a "point", makes sense to me right now, but as we get better, doesn't that "area" start to become a "point"? I'm not anywhere close to that yet, and I can see a lot of benefits from trying to follow this concept. I guess that over time, one's "area" can gradually decrease in size. In the meantime, your suggestion implies that I'm wasting a lot of time and effort in trying to do something that's impossible (for me) right now.
 
mikemyers said:
For a novice shooter, they're probably happy just to hit the backing board, let alone a target attached to it.

It doesn't have to be. Weston's subtle point is that the wobble zone isn't why novice shooters do relatively poorly. Their wobble is likely good enough. It's their execution that's bad. And their execution is bad, largely because they're mentally focused on the wrong thing.

FWIW, I took my 77 year old father to the range this past Christmas. First time he's fired a rifle in over 50 years. Before shooting, I went over the basics and told him what was important and what wasn't. Pretty much what I've been telling you. With my deer rifle, he was shooting MOA groups at 100 yards from the start. Also, while he's never shot a handgun, I worked with him again on the pistol bay, and he quickly was shooting tighter groups than anyone else on the line.

mikemyers said:
I guess that over time, one's "area" can gradually decrease in size.

Bingo. The wobble also gets more predictable, and you're able to see fine subtleties you hadn't earlier noticed.

mikemyers said:
In the meantime, your suggestion implies that I'm wasting a lot of time and effort in trying to do something that's impossible (for me) right now.

How 'bout a running analogy: You want to be a better miler. But, right now - today - you've only got so much cardio ability. The best you could possibly do today, is to run every step, at the very limit of your cardio ability. A shred slower and you won't do your best. A shred faster and you blow your engine.

Your immediate goal, then, isn't to set any particular time - your goal is to make every single footfall up to your potential, but not beyond. Do that, and you'll do your best, and the time is what it is. It in itself is a real challenge. And in the process, your cardio ability increases, so your potential continues to increase. You also get to know your body more and know what time you ought to be able to achieve IF you do everything right. That's called "visualization" - executing to your ability. This far different than picking some arbitrary number out of the sky as a goal. That's called "dreaming" because it involves skills you don't yet have. There's nothing wrong with dreaming, but when you're at the range or practicing, visualize, rather than dream.

The good news is that if you put your mental energy where it needs to be, and focus on the process, you will improve quickly. So there are skills that are beyond you today, but may be well within your skillset pretty quickly.
 
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mikemyers said:
To the sharp-shooters we occasionally get to read about, they may want to shoot out a match, or slice a playing card in half.
That isn't as hard as it initially sounds. We used to have the whole class, 15 shooters, do this at the end of a 3-day class...maybe not on the first shot, but everyone does it by the end of the class

It has very little to do with holding your sights steady and everything to do with correct trigger management. It is still "area" aiming
 
It's fine to analyze the snot out of all this stuff while at the keyboard. But once you're looking through the sights and building pressure in your trigger finger there's no room for all this other junk. Just focus and do....

Because a smooth DA pull typically requires a little more concentration on a smooth build I feel this is part of why you and I tend to match or do better in DA than in SA.

As suggested by someone a good cadence is part of the secret too. And not just the cadence from shot to shot. It also applies to the rate of the pressure build and the resulting trigger motion. If we try to stretch it out too far it becomes nearly impossible to avoid "staging" the trigger. Which is why in the original thread I suggested starting with a one second build to the rear and work that down to around a half second or only slightly longer. A half second doesn't leave any time for interruptive thinking. And that's a good thing.

For a consistent bullseye shooting setup where we're shooting at the same size target and same distance every time the 6 o'clock hold shown in MrBorland's post works awesomely. I've set up a couple of my own guns for this style. And if shooting my cowboy or action shooting guns at my club's bullseye nights I still use the 6 o'clock hold and just expect my groups to be at the bottom edge of the black bull area. As mentioned it not only avoids the black on black but it also provides a clearer view of the accuracy of my hold.... along with a much TOO clear view of my shakiness.... :D But such is the art of getting older....

The good thing in either case is that it at least removes one disruptive factor. Namely the black on black thing or even with coloured sights the uncertainty of how well the sights are lined up with the actual middle of the black area.

Trying to hold the gun up for a whole magazine or cylinder worth of shooting is only good for a relatively rapid fire series. Like one shot ever two seconds as suggested. Beyond that most of us will begin to see arm muscle fatigue producing extra muscle shake and a jumpy sight picture as a result. For serious target shooting I like to take two shots, finger off the trigger, safety on if there is one, lower the gun and rest it on the bench with my hand(s) still around the grips. Take a few seconds as a breather then raise the gun and take another shot or two. I've found that my arm(s) are most calm for up to around 20 seconds. Then the muscles begin to shake more and further attempts at a calm stable hold are a waste.

Now all this is the icing on the cake so to speak. It's the last little bit that will improve things after all the other basics are in place. Even without all this 2 inch groups at 12 to 14 yards is something that should not be hard with just the basics. All this other stuff is for reducing the 2 inches down to more like 1 inch.
 
I see that MrB and 9mm posted while I was composing.

I just want to third the idea that trigger management is the foundation that the other factors rest on. In my experience it counts for as much as all the other stuff put together.
 
Some of these things many of you noted a year ago, and I changed accordingly. I used to pull the trigger sooooooooo slowly in DA. Now it's one shot every two seconds or so with the '22, and maybe a little bit more with the larger guns. The actual time to pull the trigger is probably 1/2 second on the larger guns. It's fast enough for me to not think about what I'm doing, and slow enough that I can pay enough attention to the sight picture.


As to "goals", I've got so many years of what might be a bad way to do this. When my groups were 7 to 8 inches, I wanted 6. Then 5. Then 4. Then six months ago, 3. If I ever did get down to 2" groups, I'd be wanting 1". I now think quality practice, both dry fire and at the range, is the single biggest key to improving - along with following the advice, first from books, and then from discussions in this thread.


As to my arms getting tired, that used to be very much the case. After doing my dry-fire drills, 30 seconds of shooting, 30 seconds of rest, and repeating this for about 20 minutes, non-stop .....well, my arms don't get tired as quickly. At the range, if they do start to get tired, I stop for a while.


As to shooting out a match, or splitting a playing card in two, I didn't write it, but I meant the first shot. On demand. With a handgun. :)


BCRider, I used to get to the range, and forget several of the things I told myself I'd do differently. I find myself in a different state of mind when I'm standing there with a gun in front of me, from when I'm home sitting at my PC. So, last year, I took several of the things I learned here, and put them into a short list, and printed it out. Now, when i get to the range, I take out my guns, my ammo, arrange the table in front of me, and place that paper under the ammo box. I look it over almost every time I go shooting. Eventually, all those things seem to become habit, but I don't want to risk falling back on my old habits.


Trigger management - for me, it's a never ending story. I now know "what" to do, but as Mr. Borland related, when actually holding a loaded gun up, aimed at the target, some of my "good intentions" get forgotten. Not for long though - by loading only two or three bullets in my revolver, if I'm not pulling/pushing the trigger properly, it's instantly obvious to me. If the problem doesn't go away, I stop firing live rounds, and dry fire for a while instead. (I wonder what anyone watching me is thinking.... :) ).


Last thought - I'm not sure I agree with this: "But once you're looking through the sights and building pressure in your trigger finger there's no room for all this other junk. Just focus and do...." ..... I find I'm constantly monitoring myself, comparing what I'm doing with what I'd like to be doing. It's sort of like a mental check list for a recipe - follow all the steps, and the holes will be where you want them. It's not easy, but I think (for me) it's necessary.


I think I should add one more thought - at the end of many months of practice and work, I take off for India (doing volunteer work). For four to six months, there is no shooting at all. Every time I return, it takes me a lot of time to get back to what I could do before my trip.
 
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"For me today, I'd like to get 15 shots into a two inch diameter grouping."

That should be obtainable. I used to be able to do that with a 3" Model 36, SA or DA.

If you are still shooting that 10" .44, I think one big part of your problem is that the gun is not only big, but front end heavy, making it hard to hold on target. It was not intended for off hand use, only for use on a rest. Further, the long barrel and long sight radius magnifies wobble to the point that you lose both accuracy and confidence. The gun might not move any more than one with a shorter barrel, but it LOOKS like it is moving a lot more and that harms your shooting by making you think you can't hold the gun steady. (Pistol scopes can do the same thing.)

See if you can buy, borrow, or (no, not steal) rent an S&W with a 4 inch barrel, say a 586 or a Model 19 and try it.

Jim
 
"For me today, I'd like to get 15 shots into a two inch diameter grouping." ............. That should be obtainable. I used to be able to do that with a 3" Model 36, SA or DA. ......


Jim, I disagree. I have always shot that long gun better than any other gun I've ever used. It's so heavy, it barely wobbles. It's also so heavy that even if I were to try to jerk the trigger, by the time the gun moved, it would be like tomorrow... :)

I've got quite a few guns now, and I enjoy shooting all of them. When I was 35 or so, I was shooting 2" groups or better sometimes (almost always with this gun). Now I'm 71, and my eyes don't work as well, and I'm not as strong, but I know things now I never knew when I was younger. :)

Yep, 15 shots into a two inch diameter grouping at 15 yards is something I think I'll get back to, but regardless of how easy it "should be", it's anything but for me (or anyone I've seen). For that matter, I haven't seen someone at either range I go to even coming close.



I've seen videos of Mr. Borland doing things that I would have thought impossible, but there they were, in slow motion, so i could see "how" he did it. But in my small world, I walk around and watch others at the handgun ranges I go to, and most are shooting at 7 yards (or less), and even so, none of them shooting tight groups. I've watched people who talk ask if they're experts, but not from what I've seen. I think a lot of it is wishful thinking........


Anyway, the next trip to the range will probably be with my Model 41 S&W target gun, and my Model 28 which is the gun I started talking about last year, trying to get better. Next week I'll try two different guns.
 
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mikemyers said:
When my groups were 7 to 8 inches, I wanted 6. Then 5. Then 4. Then six months ago, 3. If I ever did get down to 2" groups, I'd be wanting 1"

...and these are good & noble goals because they are what keep us motivated. In that way, they're good & necessary tools to have.

But use the right tool for the job, so when actually shooting, leave the "dream" tool in the box and use the "visualization" tool instead. It's just the better tool for the job.


mikemyers said:
But in my small world, I walk around and watch others at the handgun ranges I go to, and most are shooting at 7 yards (or less), and even so, none of them shooting tight groups. I've watched people who talk ask if they're experts, but not from what I've seen. I think a lot of it is wishful thinking........

Yes, this is common at most ranges, especially ranges where you have your little booth and shooting lane and it's slow-fire only. Many experienced and proficient shooters find this environment far too restrictive, and do their shooting at private ranges and in competition. There's a whole world of shooting beyond these little booths, and the bar's considerably higher.

The level of competency is generally pretty bad at these public ranges because they don't know what they don't know, and no one ever told them differently, and everyone else is pretty bad too, so they don't realize they're also bad. But take the example of my father, for instance - a brand new shooter that was told something different, and was immediately shooting better than anyone else on the line. He did well because he simply listened to what he was told without judgement and didn't look around at other targets to pre-set some bar.

Part of the reason John Shooter is a rotten shot is because he sees everyone else is. Don't let your bar be lowered and don't be distracted by what you see around you. Those who compete often struggle with the opposite - getting distracted and psyched out by Joe Pro. It's bad mojo and leads to underperformance.

You're on a good path, Mike, and doing well.
 
This is the first time I've seen a reference to your age. Being only 10 years behind you I can attest to how the arms and eyes don't listen to my brain as well as they did a couple of decades ago. It ain't easy getting older.... :D

Last thought - I'm not sure I agree with this: "But once you're looking through the sights and building pressure in your trigger finger there's no room for all this other junk. Just focus and do...." ..... I find I'm constantly monitoring myself, comparing what I'm doing with what I'd like to be doing. It's sort of like a mental check list for a recipe - follow all the steps, and the holes will be where you want them. It's not easy, but I think (for me) it's necessary.

All I can suggest is to try it. It's fine to consider that stuff before and after. But like a pilot on a carrier catapult once you've checked all the items on the list and signal the cat officer on the deck it's time to put up and shutup. Try it. Just "zen" in on the actual action of the sights and trigger and ditch all the rest. Afterwards it's fine to look at the results and play back in your mind what the actual shooting felt like. But for a shot or string of shots toss out the extra baggage and focus 110% on those two items only. If you try to focus on too many things during the actual shooting then all the tasks suffer. It's a time for trained muscle memory and trained habit to take over.

And don't go overboard on trying to remember to NOT focus on those other things either.... :D I know it sounds funny but call it "focus", Zen or whatever you want. But at some point you need to ditch the work load and get down to the basics that you trained for.
 
....... when actually shooting, leave the "dream" tool in the box and use the "visualization" tool instead. It's just the better tool for the job........


That makes a lot of sense. I'll do just what you said, but shoot at my own printed targets (based on NRA targets). That way, while I'm shooting, I will follow your advice, and when I get home, I can play around with my computer and analyze things - I enjoy doing that, but won't even think about it while at the range.


Regarding other people's targets, my shooting glasses have a prescription for the distance to my front sights, and anything/everything else is always very blurry. I can't even see my own shots until I press the button to return the target to me. During the time I'm shooting, all I'm aware of is a lot of background noise, a blurry target in front of me, and my own gun. (Sometimes I just stop shooting, and take a break, and look around at who else is there, and how they're doing, but that's when I'm about to go home, or waiting for an outdoor range to stop shooting, so people can work with their targets.)

When I used to race radio control cars, I got pretty good at racing at the local hobby shop race tracks, but then I went to better tracks, and my performance was dismal. I also watched some of the very best racers dominate the racing.... but then, as I covered some World Championship events for a magazine I worked for, I saw those same "experts" looking pretty run-of-the-mill compared to their world-class competition. So, for myself, I gave up on all the comparisons, and simply looked at my "lap times". If I could lower my lap times, I was getting better. The only person I was competing with, was myself. That was far more productive, especially when I graphed the times out as a chart.


I guess that's how it is now, at my indoor range, "where you have your little booth and shooting lane and it's slow-fire only". It's a nice place to go, but maybe it's time for me to see if I can find someplace better, preferably out doors. I'd also much rather have sunlight and fresh air!


...........age. Getting older is a drag, but it sure beats the alternative.
 
I often ask my clients to shoot slowly...as much time as it takes...so I can gauge their trigger control.

What I have them shoot at is a 1" square (gray) with a white circle in the middle.

The square is rotated 45 degrees to appear as a diamond...the lateral points offer a horizontal index for the top of the blade.

They are printed in 4 rows, in 3 columns, 12 to a sheet of printer paper.

The drill is to take only one shot at each diamond in the row...I have them do it is 3 shot strings.

The objective isn't to hit the circle, or even the square. It is to gauge the consistency of the trigger management of each shot...it is a diagnostic tool
 
mikemyers said:
I went to better tracks, and my performance was dismal. I also watched some of the very best racers dominate the racing.... but then, as I covered some World Championship events for a magazine I worked for, I saw those same "experts" looking pretty run-of-the-mill compared to their world-class competition.

Yup - don't let your ego or sense of self-worth get too tied up in the endeavor. In formal competition, your place depends on others. One day, you might be the best there and win, the next day take last place because everyone who happened to show up at this match was better. But you're still the same shooter. The best you can do is shoot to your ability and let the results take care of themselves.


mikemyers said:
I guess that's how it is now, at my indoor range, "where you have your little booth and shooting lane and it's slow-fire only". It's a nice place to go, but maybe it's time for me to see if I can find someplace better, preferably out doors. I'd also much rather have sunlight and fresh air!

Just to clarify: For what you're doing, there's nothing wrong with this kind of range. Just don't set your bar too low. 'Course a nice sunny outdoor range is a nice alternative.

FWIW, I got a late start in shooting, but when the bug bit, it bit hard. I spend my first year and a half at one of these ranges doing nothing but sight picture and trigger control for groups. First with a .22 rifle, then a .22 revolver. I kept all that brass in a box and I still have it. The box weighs 40-ish pounds. By the time I left that range, I had a pretty decent handle on the basics, and there wasn't anything about the place keeping me from doing that.


rimfireBrass.jpg
 
I have enjoyed reading through these posts again...much good advice here.

Perhaps I missed it in my reviews, but no one has mentioned practicing with a large blank piece of paper, that is, with no target spot. It works for some people, myself included. Without a black spot to "shoot at", it helps me concentrate on sight alignment and trigger control while simply accepting the middle of the paper as the area to allow the sights to wobble in. Tortured English to be sure, but I hope it conveys the idea. Some surprisingly good groups can be produced this way.

Mr. Borland embellished my previous comments very effectively; perhaps he can help me out with this one. No sarcasm here I assure you; Mr. Borland explains things in writing better than I can.
 
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MartinS said:
A blank sheet of paper and blank the mind and just shoot.

This.

The "no target" drill is a good one when you need to get your head out of your own way. The target's really not that important - it's just a recording device - so if you've got your brain wrapped around the good groups you're trying to shoot, getting rid of it for a bit can get you back to feeling what it's like to shoot while being in the present.
 
.....no one has mentioned practicing with a large blank piece of paper, that is, with no target spot. ..... Without a black spot to "shoot at", it helps me concentrate on sight alignment and trigger control while simply accepting the middle of the paper as the area to allow the sights to wobble in........

The "no target" drill is a good one when you need to get your head out of your own way. The target's really not that important - it's just a recording device - so if you've got your brain wrapped around the good groups you're trying to shoot, getting rid of it for a bit can get you back to feeling what it's like to shoot while being in the present.


Very interesting concept. As I read these, I picture just shooting at a blank piece of paper, with no bullseye, no lines, nothing other than a big rectangular piece of paper. Unless you're going to check where the holes are though, why have any "target" at all? Why not shoot at nothing? If I did what you're suggesting, with that piece of paper in front of me, at some point I'd have a desire to see my grouping. If I didn't want to be doing that, it seems to me that I should just shoot at nothing, no backing board, no target, just the dirt back-stop behind where the targets go.....
 
I often ask my clients to shoot slowly...as much time as it takes...so I can gauge their trigger control.

What I have them shoot at is a 1" square (gray) with a white circle in the middle.

The square is rotated 45 degrees to appear as a diamond...the lateral points offer a horizontal index for the top of the blade.

They are printed in 4 rows, in 3 columns, 12 to a sheet of printer paper.

The drill is to take only one shot at each diamond in the row...I have them do it is 3 shot strings.

The objective isn't to hit the circle, or even the square. It is to gauge the consistency of the trigger management of each shot...it is a diagnostic tool


I'd love to know how you evaluate the sheet afterwards. If I make up a "target" exactly as you've described it, and take one shot at each square, and post it here, would you be willing to suggest what it indicates to you?
 
Very interesting concept. As I read these, I picture just shooting at a blank piece of paper, with no bullseye, no lines, nothing other than a big rectangular piece of paper. Unless you're going to check where the holes are though, why have any "target" at all? Why not shoot at nothing? If I did what you're suggesting, with that piece of paper in front of me, at some point I'd have a desire to see my grouping. If I didn't want to be doing that, it seems to me that I should just shoot at nothing, no backing board, no target, just the dirt back-stop behind where the targets go.....
Of course you want to evaluate your groups. The blank paper records your groups.

I know you have difficulty believing that you can shoot a small group without a small target, but you can. Try it and see.
 
.......The objective isn't to hit the circle, or even the square. It is to gauge the consistency of the trigger management of each shot...it is a diagnostic tool


If you print this out full size, it should be an 8 1/2" x 11" target as you described:

http://www.sgrid.com/2015/9mmepiphany.jpg

If you want the squares darker, or the holes a different size, I'll change it.
 
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......I know you have difficulty believing that you can shoot a small group without a small target, but you can. Try it and see.

That's one problem I don't have. I used to get those huge blue "smurf" targets (if that's the right name, and pick different places to shoot at (face, elbows, fingers, whatever). As long as i can see "something" to get an idea where the middle is, I'm fine. I don't know that/if I do better on larger or smaller targets, but I can see a LOT of benefits from doing what you suggest.

The reason I asked, is because Mr. Borland indicated it might be good to forget about groups for a bit, but regardless of whether I'm shooting at one inch circles or a huge black piece of paper, knowing me, the first thing I would be looking for is the group size.

If I print out a target as '9mmepiphany' seems to have suggested (if I got it right), there won't be any groups. I'm not sure what he wants to see in the end result, but I think it's already a great idea. Shoot the top three, take a break, then the next, another break, and after shooting all 12 squares, check out the target. ......and wait for feedback!
 
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If I make up a "target" exactly as you've described it, and take one shot at each square, and post it here, would you be willing to suggest what it indicates to you?
I could do that.

It works better if I've actually seen how you grip and manage the trigger, but I can take an educated guess

If you want the squares darker, or the holes a different size, I'll change it.
Makes no difference how dark they are. Just adjust them to whichever intensity is comfortable for you.

They just have to be dark enough so that you can see them behind your sights without having to look at them.

I'm not sure what he wants to see in the end result,
Consistency.

Don't look at where your shots are hitting during a string of 3
Don't try to correct if your shots aren't hitting center
 
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