Single Action vs. Double Action, Part II

[mikemyers]

.......Another issue can be the use of those ShootNC targets - they really tempt you to peek at the target, which is an accuracy killer......

I think I may have proved your point today. I went to the indoor range, and only brought one gun, the High Standard. I intended to shoot four groups of 15 shots each, at 15 yards, and ONLY concentrate on what you refer to as the fundamentals.

(I practiced dry-firing in my apartment two days ago, shooting the gun for a bit over half an hour, just pressing on the trigger to simulate a shot (it wasn't cocked), and concentrating on holding the gun as still as I could, getting the movement of the dot to be near the center, and squeezing "smoothly". My left hand held the weight. My right hand loosely gripped the gun, aimed it, and pressed on the trigger. Every 30 seconds I took a half-minute rest.)

I used my own targets today, not shoot-n-see, so I wouldn't see where the holes went - at least that was the plan. I couldn't prove it, but I started to get a very good idea of how well I was shooting. Maybe that's because with so little recoil, I can start to see the things you referred to quite a while ago. I thought I saw a hole appear, but a millisecond later, it was gone, and all I saw was the black bull.

I loaded 5 rounds, did one non-fire (for warmup), breathed in, exhaled for about two seconds, held my breath, fired, then exhaled. I was in no hurry, and didn't plan on shooting all the 100 rounds I had just bought. I wanted quality, not quantity, and took my time about everything.


Results were way beyond what I expected. The second target accomplished what I've always been saying I wanted to do, 15 shots into a 2" group at 15 yards. Now I can happily retire..........


Seriously, it was great fun. I guess my next goal is to do it time after time. Anyway, here's the five 3" targets i cut out for the photo, along with the "backing board" that my targets were taped to. I was reasonably good about taping the new targets in the same position, so that last "target" shows 75 rounds.

I'm not sure if this is part of what you were getting at, but when i did this before, I was aware of where each shot went, and I'm sure that had some effect on following shot(s). This time I really wasn't sure where the holes were, so each shot was "on its own".​

 

[MrBorland]

Results were way beyond what I expected. The second target accomplished what I've always been saying I wanted to do, 15 shots into a 2" group at 15 yards. Now I can happily retire..........

Excellent! And congrats - your hard work's paying off. But don't retire...you're just getting started.

I'm not sure if this is part of what you were getting at, but when i did this before, I was aware of where each shot went, and I'm sure that had some effect on following shot(s). This time I really wasn't sure where the holes were, so each shot was "on its own".

Pretty much. If you're focused on the execution of the shot, you'll still have a pretty good idea where the shot went. Or at least whether it's a good or bad shot. But the sights are telling you that, not the target directly. That's "calling the shot".

No matter how you "see" the shots, though, the only shot that matters is the one you're now taking. As you've discovered, it's easier to keep that focus when you don't peek at the target.

 

[J-Bar]

If that gun has an adjustable rear sight, I'd take it one click left.

 

[mikemyers]

J-Bar, it does. I ordered the manual for the sight almost a week ago - should arrive in the next few days. If not, I'll look it up on the internet. It's the first red dot sight I've ever worked with, and while it does have a "windage" adjustment on the left side, I'm not sure which way to turn it.

MrBorland, maybe it's because of the lack of recoil, but for the first time I'm' getting to where I can "call the shots". Maybe after doing this for a while, I can try my Model 41 again, and see if I can then do it with iron sights. If so, it will be great if I can also see this on my Model 28.


(This will probably sound very silly, but while I know the target is stationary, and it's my sight that is moving the red dot around, because of your advice I started to almost see the red dot as stationary, with the target moving. The more I concentrate on the sight, the less I "see" the target details, but I'm very aware of the target's position relative to my dot. I think that's because unlike iron sights, my entire "world" is what I can see inside the round tube, which is only two things - dot, and bull. Strange.

It reminds me of when I took photos many years ago of people on some amusement park rides. While the world around me was twisting every which way, the ONLY part of the world that I saw was what was in my camera's viewfinder. I could pay attention to people's expressions, etc., and to me, they were not moving - it was the world behind them that was moving and twisting and jumping. Photos came out great. If I took my eyes off the viewfinder, I was right back on the ride, and my tummy reacted accordingly! Since then, I've gotten very used to that - when I'm taking photos, my "world" is what's in the viewfinder. Anything else might as well not exist.)

 

[MrBorland]

maybe it's because of the lack of recoil, but for the first time I'm' getting to where I can "call the shots". Maybe after doing this for a while, I can try my Model 41 again, and see if I can then do it with iron sights.

A good .22LR an excellent tool for what you're doing.

my "world" is what's in the viewfinder. Anything else might as well not exist.

Yup. And eventually, consciously pulling the trigger won't be part of your world, either. Your subconscious will take care of that, so it'll be like the gun fires itself when you see what you need to see. And when you're not consciously pulling the trigger, you're less likely to flinch or jerk it.

 

[mikemyers]

Instruction from Linda Dillon

I usually shoot at Florida Gun (http://www.floridagun.com/), an indoor range not that far from me. I went to the Trail Glades park/range (http://www.miamidade.gov/parks/trail-glades.asp) this past weekend - lots of people, shooting in the open air. Yesterday I went to Hollywood Pistol and Rifle Club (http://www.hrpclub.info/), another "open range", and spent the afternoon with Linda Dillon, the club's secretary (and also a wonderful instructor). I joined the club, and intend to shoot there reasonably frequently.

Anyway, the purpose of this post is to pass on what Linda told me, after watching me shoot. First was "point of aim", which I thought I understood, but found out I was wrong. What she told me to do was:

Stand as if you’re ready to raise your gun to shoot. Close eyes. Raise gun. Look where the sights are pointed. If it’s to the left of the target, move your right foot back a little. Or, if it’s to the right, move your right foot forward. Do this until you naturally raise the gun to face right at the target. Use chalk and mark where your feet go. Remember placement for future shooting.​

Linda watched me shoot my High Standard 22 for a bit, then suggested I change the way I hold the gun. Until now, my right hand has been working the trigger, and my left hand has been lower on the gun, supporting the weight of the gun and my right arm. Linda told me to raise my left hand, with my fingers wrapped around my right hand (as I do on my revolvers), and to REST THE TOP OF MY FINGER AGAINST THE BOTTOM OF THE TRIGGER GUARD. That helps support the gun, but more importantly it immobilizes the gun, so it doesn't wave around. I could see a difference immediately, as it caused the red dot to stabilize. The dot still moved, but not nearly as much as it used to.

After all this, I needed to fire 10 shots at an NRA target, a requirement to be allowed to join the club. Here is my target: http://www.sgrid.com/2015/mike-target.jpg

Linda's advice, along with everything already mentioned in this thread, made a huge difference. That, along with lots of practice.

=============================================

Here is a link to a group of photos I took at Hollywood Pistol & Rifle Club:
https://plus.google.com/+MikeMyers00/posts/RbsYRTkkTVu

 

[BCRider]

A local guy that used to compete in bullseye meets years ago told me that same thing about foot placement almost word for word. For one handed bullseye shooting it did help and I got better groups as soon as I set myself up for that more natural body posture.

It's not a HUGE deal though. But if you're looking for that last 2 or 3% to drop the groups by that last little bit it really does make a difference. But if the other more basic stuff is still an issue then the gains made by this one thing will be lost in the errors created by the other issues.

 

[9mmepiphany]

Linda watched me shoot my High Standard 22 for a bit, then suggested I change the way I hold the gun. Until now, my right hand has been working the trigger, and my left hand has been lower on the gun, supporting the weight of the gun and my right arm. Linda told me to raise my left hand, with my fingers wrapped around my right hand (as I do on my revolvers), and to REST THE TOP OF MY FINGER AGAINST THE BOTTOM OF THE TRIGGER GUARD. That helps support the gun, but more importantly it immobilizes the gun, so it doesn't wave around. I could see a difference immediately, as it caused the red dot to stabilize. The dot still moved, but not nearly as much as it used to

This makes an excellent point of the value of personal instruction.

I'm pretty confident that until you posted the above paragraph, no one offering advice knew that you were utilizing a Tea Cup/Cup-n-Saucer hold

First was "point of aim", which I thought I understood, but found out I was wrong.

I was a bit confused, until I realized that you were referring to Natural Point of Aim. As BCRider mentioned, it is more applicable to one-handed shooting than two-handed shooting

 

[MrBorland]

I'm pretty confident that until you posted the above paragraph, no one offering advice knew that you were utilizing a Tea Cup/Cup-n-Saucer hold

^^ This ^^ I'm glad Linda got your grip straightened out.

 

[mikemyers]

.....I'm pretty confident that until you posted the above paragraph, no one offering advice knew that you were utilizing a Tea Cup/Cup-n-Saucer hold......

With all my other guns, I hold them "normally". With the unusual grip on my High Design, I've tried all sorts of ways to hold it, such that my left hand supports the weight. Because of the huge "bulge" at the bottom, probably because it's designed for one handed shooting: (http://www.sgrid.com/2015/high-standard-s.jpg) ....I usually had my left hand lower than what I do on any other gun. Part of that large bulge then rested on top of part of my hand. Linda had me squeeze my hand onto my other hand, between the "bulge" and the trigger guard. It felt cramped, but it worked - my left thumb didn't really have a good place to go. I need to find some normal grips for the gun - not sure where to look yet.

The part of what Linda told me to do that made the biggest difference, was the top of my left hand pushing on, and supporting, the trigger guard.


Sorry about the wrong terminology about "natural point of aim". At the range, we were talking about two-handed shooting. I was doing exactly what Jerry Miculek expllained in his videos, face directly at the target. I don't understand the "why", but apparently my natural point of aim is with my right foot almost two inches behind my left foot. I wonder if this applies to other people as well, or if something in my body is just "warped" to one side....


Added later - the grips are "Accu Riser A-102", designed for one handed shooting, which probably explains why they are so cramped when I use two hands. I called High Standard, and they do offer "normal" walnut grips which would be more appropriate for me.

 

[9mmepiphany]

Because of the huge "bulge" at the bottom, probably because it's designed for one handed shooting: (http://www.sgrid.com/2015/high-standard-s.jpg) ....I usually had my left hand lower than what I do on any other gun. Part of that large bulge then rested on top of part of my hand. Linda had me squeeze my hand onto my other hand, between the "bulge" and the trigger guard. It felt cramped, but it worked - my left thumb didn't really have a good place to go.

It isn't so much the budge as the thumb rest that restricts the room on the grip panel. your support hand should be above the budge, index finger under the trigger guard, and thumb (usually) above the trigger guard.

I lay my support thumb on the frame (almost on the slide) above the trigger

I don't understand the "why", but apparently my natural point of aim is with my right foot almost two inches behind my left foot. I wonder if this applies to other people as well,

Ah my area of "expertise"...the "why"

It is because of how you are holding the gun. Your support hand extends further around, which pulls your shoulder forward, which torques your body clockwise.

Or as my tailor is so fond of pointing out, "Why would you think your shoulders are an even length from your neck, anymore than your arms are the same length?"

 

[mikemyers]

Bingo! I picked up the gun, and considered what you just wrote, and the thumb rest is certainly preventing my left hand from being as high as I'd normally have it, and that probably explains why there's no room at the bottom of the grips above the "bulge" because my hand is so low. That explains why, when Linda looked at my hands, she told me to bring the support hand up, so I'm right at the trigger guard.

I know they look "fancy", but I'm now searching through the Brownell's page for a pair of "plain walnut grips", no bulge at the bottom, and no thumb rest. Or, I'll just buy direct from High Standard.

......It is because of how you are holding the gun. Your support hand extends further around, which pulls your shoulder forward, which torques your body clockwise......

Now that you've written that, it seems obvious!!! ....sure wasn't obvious to me before though. I won't forget that!

 

[BCRider]

The description of your grips on the Hi Standard sounds like they are the ones intended for one handed bullseye shooting. And that means that the frame has the strongly angled back grip angle of a classic one handed gun. It's likely that you're trying to make it into something it really isn't.

I proved this to myself and you can too if you have a more defensive style gun to use for comparison.

With a strongly angled one handed posture close your eyes and raise the unloaded gun up to where you would shoot it. Open your eyes and observe how the gun points up/down. Now do the same thing with a more action/defensive oriented two handed hold. Just take the grips off if you have to in order to get a good two handed hold. Again with a natural wrist angle hold, well, as natural as you can with the two handed "fist" around the gun, lift it with your eyes closed then open and observe the vertical alignment.

I found that my Ruger Mk III pointed naturally level with a one handed side on hold such as used for classic one handed bullseye style shooting. But the strong sweep of this gun tended to point at the sky when I did this test with the two handed square on hold and posture.

On the other hand a 1911 style grip angle tends to point at the ground with the one handed hold from the strongly angled body posture. But points naturally ahead when I use the two handed high position hold with a more or less squared on body.

My S&W revolvers, this IS the revolver forum after all , pointed to a natural level when held one handed in the bullseye posture and a bit muzzle up in the action/defensive square on posture.

All in all I suspect that the High Standard would likely be best used for some classic one handed style shooting. If you want a rimfire semi to use for your two handed action style shooting and practice perhaps look at a different gun with a more 1911'ish like grip angle.

 

[mikemyers]

BCRider, your analysis is spot-on.

I downloaded a "protractor" for my phone, and held it next to my S&W Model 41 (supposedly the same angle grip as a 1911), so the gun was level, reading 0 degrees. Then I tilted the phone/protractor until it was at the same angle as the front of my grip, and it read around 17 degrees.

I tried the same thing with the High Standard. It read around 30 degrees.

I then tried it with my Model 28. This time I got around 15 degrees.

I can't say that my hands feel more/less comfortable with one compared to another. I found a discussion about this on the 'net, http://progunleaders.org/Grip/. They suggest picking whichever feels the most comfortable to the shooter.

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You're right that this is the revolver forum. Not too long ago, I thought of the 22 as nothing more than a tool to get better with my Model 28. I remember going through lots of ammo in a 22 years ago, just enjoying shooting it, and not paying that much attention to each individual shot, as I do with the larger guns. That all changed, the more I tried to follow the suggestions in this discussion. I no longer shoot the 22 any faster than I do the M28 - one shot at a time, with follow-through, and then prepare for the next. Maybe there should be another forum here, to discuss the SHOOTER, not the gun. It seems to me that 90% of the advice in this thread is about "me", not whichever gun happens to be in my hands. I guess, in retrospect, it should be in the "Handguns, General Discussion" forum?

Should I create a post about the SHOOTER in "Handguns, General Discussion", or is there a better forum in which to post it? Or, should I just continue to post here in this thread?

 

[BCRider]

Between your two two recent threads on much the same topic in each the basics have been sliced and diced to the point that they now look like they've been run through a Cuisinart. I'd say that instead of yet another thread where you'll just get the same information as you've already gotten that it's time to simply go out and shoot.

Clearly you're one that enjoys this stuff and talking about and analyzing it all. And being able to "converse" about guns is why we're all here. So some sort of thread to post in is always fun. But as far as this sort of topic or anything related to this goes it's run the course at this point.

You seem like the sort that is at great risk of trying to analyse all the stuff while shooting to the point where you'll just lock up and not even be able to pull the trigger because of the dither of thoughts. Ease up a bit. Instead of trying to self observe and analyse EVERYTHING pick one factor and try it. Alter it. See how it affects your group size. Then once you've got that part working well try another factor. But most of all don't flood yourself. And for GOSH SAKES, DON'T CONCENTRATE SO MUCH ON NOT CONCENTRATING THAT YOU CAN'T SHOOT ! ! ! ! !

 

[mikemyers]

....You seem like the sort that is at great risk of trying to analyse all the stuff while shooting to the point where you'll just lock up and not even be able to pull the trigger because of the dither of thoughts. .......

You might as well tell me to become Chinese or Indian. What you describe "is me", and that's how I am about just about everything, for better or worse. That I'll get so involved that I'll stop shooting isn't likely, as when I stop anything for a while, I almost always want to continue a few years later. I want to buy another motorcycle. I want to set up my model railroad again. There is so much more I want to do in photography..... I started free computer forums in the early 1980's, before there was an internet (http://www.sgrid.com/forum/content.php?132-The-History-of-Starting-Grid-Part-1-M-Net)..... and am sort of still doing it, although I now enjoy using other, specialized forums more. I even find the CEP stuff fascinating, and enjoy doing it.

Thanks for the advice anyway. If it ever gets to where I'm boring or annoying other people, I'll stop posting.

 

[murf]

sounds like mike is collecting all the pieces of the puzzle before he puts it together. not a bad way to learn. his puzzle is coming along quite splendidly, i think!

murf

 

[BCRider]

Mike, I apologise if I sounded a little snarky. I was hoping that it would come across as a bit more of a fun dig than as a suggestion to "just go away". It was intended to be a bit of a friendly push towards the range bench along with a smile to go with it.

Seriously though you DO have all the facts and suggestions you need. The best thing you can do at this point is to work on replicating that box of empty brass cases that Mr Borland posted.

 

[mikemyers]

Hey, no problem at all.

I've been going to one of the ranges or another twice a week. Now that I joined the Hollywood Pistol Club, I could pretty much go every day of the week if I wanted to. I'll be away on two upcoming trips, but after that, I might join in for some of their competitions, just for fun, as the only real competition I'm in is with myself....


Murf - thanks - and the part about "pieces of a puzzle" is the best way to describe how I see all of this. So many different things, and even though I have just one goal right now, I see many other potential goals in the future. (http://www.hrpclub.info/3.html)