crofrog
Member
One thing I'd add to strambo's post is that you need to control the bad guys weapon. Simply beating him why he has time to turn the muzzle onto you isn't a good idea.
Someone Pulls a Gun On You and You're Unarmed!
- Thread starter NickBallard
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Actually, crofrog, my whole point is that you don't need to control his weapon. Yes "beating" on him might afford him an opportunity to turn his weapon on you. INJURING him however, will not. The simplest, most direct way to think about it is if I step in with intent to injure and break his elbow (gun hand) he cannot turn the weapon on me due to his injury. Some might mistake that and think I was focused on controlling his weapon, I was focused on rendering him non-functional.
How will he re-orient his weapon on you if you step in and gouge his eye (thumb in socket, fingers gripping jaw, other hand holding his head close- "gouge" meaning rupturing the orb will fluid leaking out and his other eye slamming shut and tearing in a sympathetic response) Then you keep directing his head towards the pavement whilst stomping on his ankle with all your body weight. The ankle breaks, he gets a concussion from his head hitting the concrete and you have yet to "control" his weapon in a literal, physical sense.
Conversly, I mentioned you "controlling" his weapon while he ruptured your eardrum and asked, rhetorically what was gained? Brownie responded "time above ground." I mistakenly "assumed" -oops
that the rest of that story would be evident. When your eardrum ruptures, you forget about his "weapon" in response to that injury. He continues to strike you with his free hand and you immediately fall due to loss of equilibrium. He then stomps you to death without ever touching the handgun that you effectively controlled.
You controlled the weapon 100%-he couldn't shoot you with it, it then fell to the ground and nobody in that scenario picked it up. The difference is, the bad guy just wanted to kill you by any means necessary and you mistakenly thought a handgun (tool) was the only way/thing that made him dangerous.
At some level, yes, I want to control his weapon (not get shot). I just arrive at that control from the complete other side of the equation. Penetrate and clear his initial field of fire, then focus 100% on injuring him to the degree that he can't even control his own bodily functions to say nothing of a firearm (club, knife). In practice, this will sometimes look like what most people do/teach. If I target his gun arm (elbow, wrist or shoulder) for that initial injury, then I will also have physical control of the gun. For me that is a secondary consideration though. If it was most important, then if I failed to gain control, I would keep trying, meanwhile he could just injure my distracted self with his other arm and two legs.
If I could snap my fingers and blind him (instant "magical" eye gouge as described above) vs snap my fingers and have his gun appear in my hand (at close range-6ft or so) I'll take the blinding. He's still a lethal threat without the gun, just as I am. At the point of blindness (injury), before he could recover, I would move in and cause further injury until he was not functional...and get the gun anyway if I wanted it.
I know this flies in the face of most that is taught...I'm currently writing from a combat zone (said not to impress, only to establish I have a real stake currently in this sort of stuff). I have given years (since I was 18) of careful thought to what concepts, principles and training I will bet my life and the lives of my family on. Each must make their own choices because only you will be in that violent situation to handle it, not some guru, instructor whatever. Good luck to everyone, I always want the good guys to be able to destroy the attackers and survive in any such situation.
-edit for spelling and some additional clarity-
How will he re-orient his weapon on you if you step in and gouge his eye (thumb in socket, fingers gripping jaw, other hand holding his head close- "gouge" meaning rupturing the orb will fluid leaking out and his other eye slamming shut and tearing in a sympathetic response) Then you keep directing his head towards the pavement whilst stomping on his ankle with all your body weight. The ankle breaks, he gets a concussion from his head hitting the concrete and you have yet to "control" his weapon in a literal, physical sense.
Conversly, I mentioned you "controlling" his weapon while he ruptured your eardrum and asked, rhetorically what was gained? Brownie responded "time above ground." I mistakenly "assumed" -oops
that the rest of that story would be evident. When your eardrum ruptures, you forget about his "weapon" in response to that injury. He continues to strike you with his free hand and you immediately fall due to loss of equilibrium. He then stomps you to death without ever touching the handgun that you effectively controlled. You controlled the weapon 100%-he couldn't shoot you with it, it then fell to the ground and nobody in that scenario picked it up. The difference is, the bad guy just wanted to kill you by any means necessary and you mistakenly thought a handgun (tool) was the only way/thing that made him dangerous.
At some level, yes, I want to control his weapon (not get shot). I just arrive at that control from the complete other side of the equation. Penetrate and clear his initial field of fire, then focus 100% on injuring him to the degree that he can't even control his own bodily functions to say nothing of a firearm (club, knife). In practice, this will sometimes look like what most people do/teach. If I target his gun arm (elbow, wrist or shoulder) for that initial injury, then I will also have physical control of the gun. For me that is a secondary consideration though. If it was most important, then if I failed to gain control, I would keep trying, meanwhile he could just injure my distracted self with his other arm and two legs.
If I could snap my fingers and blind him (instant "magical" eye gouge as described above) vs snap my fingers and have his gun appear in my hand (at close range-6ft or so) I'll take the blinding. He's still a lethal threat without the gun, just as I am. At the point of blindness (injury), before he could recover, I would move in and cause further injury until he was not functional...and get the gun anyway if I wanted it.
I know this flies in the face of most that is taught...I'm currently writing from a combat zone (said not to impress, only to establish I have a real stake currently in this sort of stuff). I have given years (since I was 18) of careful thought to what concepts, principles and training I will bet my life and the lives of my family on. Each must make their own choices because only you will be in that violent situation to handle it, not some guru, instructor whatever. Good luck to everyone, I always want the good guys to be able to destroy the attackers and survive in any such situation.
-edit for spelling and some additional clarity-
brownie0486
Member
Strambo,
If you have a weapon pointed at you, you are in a war zone, no matterwhere your physical location is presently.
You think a broken ear drum is going to stop someone from continuing? If it does, they probably are not the person who should be attempting a disarm to begin with.
Brownie
If you have a weapon pointed at you, you are in a war zone, no matterwhere your physical location is presently.
You think a broken ear drum is going to stop someone from continuing? If it does, they probably are not the person who should be attempting a disarm to begin with.
Brownie
For what it's worth, I got my right eardrum busted while bouncing at a bar in Tacoma a couple of decades ago. The pain was immediate and immense but worse than the pain was the inability to stand. No sense of balance at all. I tried to continue the fight but could not stay on my feet.
That was a bad night for Biker.
I remember that by closing my mouth and piching my nostrils, I could blow smoke out of my right ear.
Biker
That was a bad night for Biker.
I remember that by closing my mouth and piching my nostrils, I could blow smoke out of my right ear.
Biker
I aggree about the "war zone" part...what I was trying to communicate with that probably didn't come across right and sounded just arrogant, please disregard.
The ruptured eardrum was just what I thought of...could have said any realistic injury. My point is, if you are focused on controlling a tool while he is focused on just killing you, he is free to use every body part not connected to said tool, or being controlled by you to injure you. If he is too slow to capitalize on that injury and finish you off, then a person could recover and choose continue to fight with all the function they have left (which I would highly recommend!)
Actually, to strip it down to bare bones; I aggree that the most important thing in a violent conflict is to gain and maintain control of the most dangerous weapon so it cannot injure/kill you.
Some may define the most dangerous weapon as a tool such as a firearm and seek to control that. I define the most dangerous weapon as a mind in control of a body. If I can shut off the mind (CNS) and/or break the body leaving the mind without any tools, then I have controlled the weapon that can hurt me.
It's just a priority list...a lot of the physical application will look the same as folks who prioritize differently. When something goes wrong, that's where it becomes important. A tool oriented person will seek to control/avoid the tool again after a failed attempt (if it is indeed their 1st priority). I will seek to cause an injury again if my 1st attempt at doing so fails and continue until he is non-functional...or I am. In a hundred violent situations with 50 of each methodology tried...which would result in the fewest injuries to the protagonists? I have no way of conclusively answering that and cannot begin to think of a realistic way to conduct an experiment. No form of competition will ever allow deliberate injury to one another including lethal trauma short of bringing back the Coluseum.
I'd expect that well trained (and motivated) people of both points of view would fare well in the vast majority of cases. Probably 90-95% of people don't train at all or think about how to protect themselves from violence. Most probably don't even think their safety is their responsibility. Overcoming that hurdle is the biggest...the rest is details.
No one can answer that question. The choice to continue after an injury depends on the person, the nature of the injury and how "tough" they are. It is completely subjective. The injury itself and the resultant trauma however, are objective. In my example, I didn't say our hypothetical "hero" quit after the ruptured eardrum, I said he was knocked down because his equilibrium was shot and stomped to death. He wasn't given any chance to recover from the ruptured eardrum and fall to choose to continue before the boot crushed his temple against the concrete.
The ruptured eardrum was just what I thought of...could have said any realistic injury. My point is, if you are focused on controlling a tool while he is focused on just killing you, he is free to use every body part not connected to said tool, or being controlled by you to injure you. If he is too slow to capitalize on that injury and finish you off, then a person could recover and choose continue to fight with all the function they have left (which I would highly recommend!)
Actually, to strip it down to bare bones; I aggree that the most important thing in a violent conflict is to gain and maintain control of the most dangerous weapon so it cannot injure/kill you.
Some may define the most dangerous weapon as a tool such as a firearm and seek to control that. I define the most dangerous weapon as a mind in control of a body. If I can shut off the mind (CNS) and/or break the body leaving the mind without any tools, then I have controlled the weapon that can hurt me.
It's just a priority list...a lot of the physical application will look the same as folks who prioritize differently. When something goes wrong, that's where it becomes important. A tool oriented person will seek to control/avoid the tool again after a failed attempt (if it is indeed their 1st priority). I will seek to cause an injury again if my 1st attempt at doing so fails and continue until he is non-functional...or I am. In a hundred violent situations with 50 of each methodology tried...which would result in the fewest injuries to the protagonists? I have no way of conclusively answering that and cannot begin to think of a realistic way to conduct an experiment. No form of competition will ever allow deliberate injury to one another including lethal trauma short of bringing back the Coluseum.
I'd expect that well trained (and motivated) people of both points of view would fare well in the vast majority of cases. Probably 90-95% of people don't train at all or think about how to protect themselves from violence. Most probably don't even think their safety is their responsibility. Overcoming that hurdle is the biggest...the rest is details.
crofrog
Member
What happens when you don't control the firearm:
http://www.metacafe.com/watch/156456/another_senseless_murder/
http://www.metacafe.com/watch/156456/another_senseless_murder/
crofrog
Member
The way I look at it is. You both have 1 hand tied up in the process of controlling the firearm, and you both have one hand, 2 legs, 1 head and a mouth to beat the snot out of each other with. Considering the fact that you should step in when controlling the weapon you will very likely be in a clinch, and should work from there. This lends itself to knees and elbows more than strikes because of the range. I personally carry a knife on each side of my body, so depending on how the fight develops I have an option of accessing one of those.
Another advantage of controlling the firearm besides the ablity to keep the muzzle off of your body, is that with revolvers it is fairly easy to prevent them from firing, and with most autos they'll only get one shot before they'll have the rack it again.
Another advantage of controlling the firearm besides the ablity to keep the muzzle off of your body, is that with revolvers it is fairly easy to prevent them from firing, and with most autos they'll only get one shot before they'll have the rack it again.
crofrog
Member
Strambo have you tried these techinques against a fully resisting partner, by fully resisting I don't mean doing things "slow" in your local dojo but instead full speed hard contact sparring?
If so what was your success rate in not getting shot?
If so what was your success rate in not getting shot?
Have I tried it with a fully resisting partner...no. I cannot. The point is if you crush someones throat...they are no longer fully resisting. Now it's your strength and skill vs a man with a crushed windpipe. Can't really pad up and get that effect. Sparring is extremely artificial (I've done plenty in the past). The reason is it's like two supermen playing tag. No injury is occurring and injury is the only thing that will reliably end a violent encounter. The winner of a sparring match is often the one who is bigger, stronger, faster. Small folks and women must get extremely frustrated sparring because they can't beat the big guys (who would be attacking them on the street) and it's like a nightmare where none of your strikes do anything (because of rules, padding, limited targets -whatever keeps it "safe")
Injury is violence! Biker mentioned getting his eardrum ruptured in a fight and being completely unable to stand. So, to practice if I step in, clear the field of fire and rupture the guy's eardrum to be followed immediately by other injuries...how do I do that in training? If he is fully resisting me, then the only way to make it work is to actually rupture my training partner's eardrum so I can take him out. If I just simulate it and he is resisting (to make it realistic, supposedly) then he will completely ignore the simulated ruptured eardrum, which we have a firsthand account of saying it cannot be ignored. It wasn't the pain (Biker sounds like a tough dude) it was the inability to stand.
Let's step back from a gun disarm example for a bit...it muddies the water.
I define "violence" as one human injuring another. Needs medical attention to fix 'cause something is broken kind of injury. A lot of silly "fights" (inter-male aggression, alpha male BS) end with both people getting up and walking away. Sure there are busted lips, black eyes and bloody noses, but each person is fully functional. That means the "loser", the guy who most would say got his butt kicked, was fully functional throughout the altercation. If he had known how to cause an injury, he could have turned the tables at any time.
I don't ever want to fight a "resisting" man. I don't ever want to find out how tough or good someone is. When a violent encounter starts it is my strength and skill vs his (their) strength/skill. Once I cause an injury, it is my strength and skill vs an injured man. It's all my capability vs a guy who can't stand up because his knee is shattered (or the now over-used ruptured eardrum). My priority is to cause an injury ASAP so it won't be anything approaching a "fair fight", or even a fight at all. It's just me injuring some dude.
I hope causing injuries plays in to everyone's training at some point. I've noticed a lot a people, martial artists especially, seem to pay almost exclusive attention to how to strike and fighting "techniques" as if they are an end in itself. It doesn't matter what you look like if you injure the guy. The temple won't know the difference between a perfectly executed Muay Thai elbow that took years to master...and being smashed with a rock by a scared mother in an alley. Either way, the brain is accelerated against the skull, a KO is likely with the possibility of subdural hemotoma, coma and death. Additionally, the woman gets a skull fracture to the guy out of the deal because she used an impact weapon. Violence and injury don't care how it happens and don't award extra skill points.
Watch prison knife footage...I've seen some. Brutal stuff, and these guys aren't skilled at all compared to trained folks. They just get this lunk headed idea that they'll just walk up and stab someone repeatedly until they are non-functional. No "technique" other than just stabbin'. But it works very well, they are focused on the results. No years of phillipino knife fighting necessary.
Bottom line, until you've injured the guy nothing has changed in your favor, it's you vs him. Once you cause an injury, it's you vs an injured man. That's why I prioritize injury 1st and everything else 2nd. I'm at the end of what I can explain over the internet anyway...if I could show you what I was talking about it would be better, at least we'd understand each other whether or not we aggreed. Stay safe!
Injury is violence! Biker mentioned getting his eardrum ruptured in a fight and being completely unable to stand. So, to practice if I step in, clear the field of fire and rupture the guy's eardrum to be followed immediately by other injuries...how do I do that in training? If he is fully resisting me, then the only way to make it work is to actually rupture my training partner's eardrum so I can take him out. If I just simulate it and he is resisting (to make it realistic, supposedly) then he will completely ignore the simulated ruptured eardrum, which we have a firsthand account of saying it cannot be ignored. It wasn't the pain (Biker sounds like a tough dude) it was the inability to stand.
Let's step back from a gun disarm example for a bit...it muddies the water.
I define "violence" as one human injuring another. Needs medical attention to fix 'cause something is broken kind of injury. A lot of silly "fights" (inter-male aggression, alpha male BS) end with both people getting up and walking away. Sure there are busted lips, black eyes and bloody noses, but each person is fully functional. That means the "loser", the guy who most would say got his butt kicked, was fully functional throughout the altercation. If he had known how to cause an injury, he could have turned the tables at any time.
I don't ever want to fight a "resisting" man. I don't ever want to find out how tough or good someone is. When a violent encounter starts it is my strength and skill vs his (their) strength/skill. Once I cause an injury, it is my strength and skill vs an injured man. It's all my capability vs a guy who can't stand up because his knee is shattered (or the now over-used ruptured eardrum). My priority is to cause an injury ASAP so it won't be anything approaching a "fair fight", or even a fight at all. It's just me injuring some dude.
I hope causing injuries plays in to everyone's training at some point. I've noticed a lot a people, martial artists especially, seem to pay almost exclusive attention to how to strike and fighting "techniques" as if they are an end in itself. It doesn't matter what you look like if you injure the guy. The temple won't know the difference between a perfectly executed Muay Thai elbow that took years to master...and being smashed with a rock by a scared mother in an alley. Either way, the brain is accelerated against the skull, a KO is likely with the possibility of subdural hemotoma, coma and death. Additionally, the woman gets a skull fracture to the guy out of the deal because she used an impact weapon. Violence and injury don't care how it happens and don't award extra skill points.
Watch prison knife footage...I've seen some. Brutal stuff, and these guys aren't skilled at all compared to trained folks. They just get this lunk headed idea that they'll just walk up and stab someone repeatedly until they are non-functional. No "technique" other than just stabbin'. But it works very well, they are focused on the results. No years of phillipino knife fighting necessary.
Bottom line, until you've injured the guy nothing has changed in your favor, it's you vs him. Once you cause an injury, it's you vs an injured man. That's why I prioritize injury 1st and everything else 2nd. I'm at the end of what I can explain over the internet anyway...if I could show you what I was talking about it would be better, at least we'd understand each other whether or not we aggreed. Stay safe!
crofrog
Member
the problem is with out training against a resisting parterner who is willing to "keep" it real and actually help you train not just beat the snot out of you, you'll never know if you can crush the windpipe or rupture the ear drum.
I know for a fact that the way I do it, very similar to brownies way FWIW works damn near 100% of the time, even with 2 "supermans" going at it loaded up in sparing gear. I simply don't get shot.
I know for a fact that the way I do it, very similar to brownies way FWIW works damn near 100% of the time, even with 2 "supermans" going at it loaded up in sparing gear. I simply don't get shot.
brownie0486
Member
Go to this link and post #13, the link from there may work.
http://www.threatfocused.com/forums/showthread.php?t=155&page=2
It shows why I don't worry much about being ear popped, smashed in the face, whatever during the disarm, becoming disabled/injured myself or worrying about disabling the aggressor.
In the link, he knew what I was going to do and was waiting for me to move. In the real world, they won't have any indication they are about to be on the ground looking up.
Brownie
http://www.threatfocused.com/forums/showthread.php?t=155&page=2
It shows why I don't worry much about being ear popped, smashed in the face, whatever during the disarm, becoming disabled/injured myself or worrying about disabling the aggressor.
In the link, he knew what I was going to do and was waiting for me to move. In the real world, they won't have any indication they are about to be on the ground looking up.
Brownie
Brownie...
I don't know your real world experiences and it's not my intention to insult you or speak down to you, but as I've learned over the years, real world is much different than the dojo. So many variables, chance is a mofo and antiseptic it's not. There's always someone faster, stronger, meaner or just plain luckier.
The real thing ain't gonna let you get close enough and you won't know you're cut, stabbed or shot until he wants you to know. Not to discount training (rumor has it I've had some myself), but you won't know how you'll react to a busted eardrum, busted kneecap or a deep stab to your left shoulder from behind until you've experienced these things. Some can be ignored temporarily and some can't.
Biker
I don't know your real world experiences and it's not my intention to insult you or speak down to you, but as I've learned over the years, real world is much different than the dojo. So many variables, chance is a mofo and antiseptic it's not. There's always someone faster, stronger, meaner or just plain luckier.
The real thing ain't gonna let you get close enough and you won't know you're cut, stabbed or shot until he wants you to know. Not to discount training (rumor has it I've had some myself), but you won't know how you'll react to a busted eardrum, busted kneecap or a deep stab to your left shoulder from behind until you've experienced these things. Some can be ignored temporarily and some can't.
Biker
brownie0486
Member
Biker,
28 years on the streets as a PI, 9 in the LE profession. I've been in some tight places, and none of them had mats.
That vid clip isn't in the dojo I threw up there. I don't work in a dojo environ myself, never have. The streets are not sterile as I'm sure you know and until just a few years ago I was on the streets almost everyday working in areas that were not the places people go on purpose to have fun.
Couldn't agree more on the variables of any confrontation. The chance of getting a busted eardrum from a threat as he is disarmed is slim and next to none. He's either on the ground if he attempts to hold the weapon [ as in the clip ] or he releases it, in which case the variables begin from there. Either way, the gun is no longer a threat to me, it's off my body and under control, and thats the purpose of any disarming attempt to my thinking.
There's always someone faster, stronger, meaner or just plain luckier.
Very true. The nice thing about this scenario of disarms is that you make the move, you create the action and decide when, they are now reacting to you, not the other way around. With the right training, leverage negates a lot of the stronger and meaner in the equation here but there is nothing you can do about the lucky ones, they can get you everytime.
btw-I like your sig line
Brownie
28 years on the streets as a PI, 9 in the LE profession. I've been in some tight places, and none of them had mats.
That vid clip isn't in the dojo I threw up there. I don't work in a dojo environ myself, never have. The streets are not sterile as I'm sure you know and until just a few years ago I was on the streets almost everyday working in areas that were not the places people go on purpose to have fun.
Couldn't agree more on the variables of any confrontation. The chance of getting a busted eardrum from a threat as he is disarmed is slim and next to none. He's either on the ground if he attempts to hold the weapon [ as in the clip ] or he releases it, in which case the variables begin from there. Either way, the gun is no longer a threat to me, it's off my body and under control, and thats the purpose of any disarming attempt to my thinking.
There's always someone faster, stronger, meaner or just plain luckier.
Very true. The nice thing about this scenario of disarms is that you make the move, you create the action and decide when, they are now reacting to you, not the other way around. With the right training, leverage negates a lot of the stronger and meaner in the equation here but there is nothing you can do about the lucky ones, they can get you everytime.
btw-I like your sig line
Brownie
brownie0486
Member
Besides the last clip of a disarm I threw up here, this one in post #1 shows just the first move of the disarms I was taught and practice pretty regularly.
The cop who is trying to shoot me was a brother officer on the same dept, held the state body building title for three years and could not get the gun back from me in training. He knew what was coming and never could use his strength to regain control of the weapon with the leverage applied on the disarm.
http://www.threatfocused.com/forums/showthread.php?t=155
This one clearly shows action beats reaction, even when they know it's coming and they are very strong. I thought the clip showed all 5 shots, but it showed the second attempt out of the 5 from the front. We had to do it this way as the first attempt to shoot me he could not pull the trigger with the gun in my hand.
Brownie
The cop who is trying to shoot me was a brother officer on the same dept, held the state body building title for three years and could not get the gun back from me in training. He knew what was coming and never could use his strength to regain control of the weapon with the leverage applied on the disarm.
http://www.threatfocused.com/forums/showthread.php?t=155
This one clearly shows action beats reaction, even when they know it's coming and they are very strong. I thought the clip showed all 5 shots, but it showed the second attempt out of the 5 from the front. We had to do it this way as the first attempt to shoot me he could not pull the trigger with the gun in my hand.
Brownie
JMusic
member
You know this type of discussion can go on forever until you hit the mats with a cap gun or training knife. Those two tools seem to silence the crowd quickly. So gimme's here
1. The BG has the drop on you. My hands immediately go up to show complieance
2. The BG usually is confident he/she controls the situation. Keep it that way.
3. I am of the school of luring them in. This is not as hard as you think unless your up against a paranoid socialpath like Biker .
4. If you have to make more than one step the odds are not in your favor. Do not move your hands and feet at the same time if you can help it. You are slower.
5. Prior to disarming distract them. Getting them to talk is all you have to do. I key myself on the first word.
6. Do not grapple over the weapon. Get it and retreat. If you can't do this IMHO you are not capable of weapons takeaways. Plan something else and practice that.
7. If they come ofter you shoot them with it.
That is how I was taught by several different instructors. This includes input from people who have taken weapons away including myself. Biker I recently met Brownie and we hd a chance to discuss this subject. My bet is you guys are not that far away. One thing I am sure of. In a bar you could take him on the bent elbow technique He folds up quick. Now anytime you feel froggy I'll be happy to take you on . Take care Brother, be safe.
Jim
1. The BG has the drop on you. My hands immediately go up to show complieance
2. The BG usually is confident he/she controls the situation. Keep it that way.
3. I am of the school of luring them in. This is not as hard as you think unless your up against a paranoid socialpath like Biker
.4. If you have to make more than one step the odds are not in your favor. Do not move your hands and feet at the same time if you can help it. You are slower.
5. Prior to disarming distract them. Getting them to talk is all you have to do. I key myself on the first word.
6. Do not grapple over the weapon. Get it and retreat. If you can't do this IMHO you are not capable of weapons takeaways. Plan something else and practice that.
7. If they come ofter you shoot them with it.
That is how I was taught by several different instructors. This includes input from people who have taken weapons away including myself. Biker I recently met Brownie and we hd a chance to discuss this subject. My bet is you guys are not that far away. One thing I am sure of. In a bar you could take him on the bent elbow technique
He folds up quick. Now anytime you feel froggy I'll be happy to take you on . Take care Brother, be safe.Jim
Well Brownie, guess ya been there, done that, got the scars, tatts and T-shirt to prove. ~tips bandanna~ Nuthin' beats beats the streets for validity examples. Me? I'm not fast enough anymore to accomplish those moves, not sure I ever was. Although I came out smelling like a rose (well, kinda
) in the vast majority of violent situations I encountered over the years, I learned the hard, painful way on occasion that things rarely go as planned. Put men in the hospital, got put there. I'm sure you know what I mean. I think my main advantage was and is, I know what ultra-violence is and what it feels like and I'm aware of my physical limitations. I can take pain but sometimes the body just don't give a damn.
This response is a bit dis-jointed but what the hell.
Anyway, bandannas off to ya.
Jim...
"Paranoid sociopath"? I'm not paranoid, I say! Also, I'm not taking anyone on unless it's in a brew swilling contest.
Biker
Nuthin' beats beats the streets for validity examples. Me? I'm not fast enough anymore to accomplish those moves, not sure I ever was. Although I came out smelling like a rose (well, kinda ) in the vast majority of violent situations I encountered over the years, I learned the hard, painful way on occasion that things rarely go as planned. Put men in the hospital, got put there. I'm sure you know what I mean. I think my main advantage was and is, I know what ultra-violence is and what it feels like and I'm aware of my physical limitations. I can take pain but sometimes the body just don't give a damn.This response is a bit dis-jointed but what the hell.
Anyway, bandannas off to ya.
Jim...
"Paranoid sociopath"? I'm not paranoid, I say! Also, I'm not taking anyone on unless it's in a brew swilling contest.
Biker
brownie0486
Member
Well Brownie, guess ya been there, done that, got the scars, tatts and T-shirt to prove.
Got the scars and tats, but no Tshirt
Me? I'm not fast enough anymore to accomplish those moves,
My day is coming for that as well
Like you, been to emergency centers and sent some there as well.
The school of hard knocks on the streets makes one think harder about getting involved in the first place if the choice to avoid is an option.
I'm not taking anyone on unless it's in a brew swilling contest.
I'd lose that one for sure.
Hats off to you as well for getting to the place you sit today. It's not easy, this living, but the alternative really s**ks.
Brownie
Got the scars and tats, but no Tshirt
Me? I'm not fast enough anymore to accomplish those moves,
My day is coming for that as well
Like you, been to emergency centers and sent some there as well.
The school of hard knocks on the streets makes one think harder about getting involved in the first place if the choice to avoid is an option.
I'm not taking anyone on unless it's in a brew swilling contest.
I'd lose that one for sure.
Hats off to you as well for getting to the place you sit today. It's not easy, this living, but the alternative really s**ks.
Brownie
JMusic
member
Biker what did you think I was talking about?
Offer still stands I'm buying the first round or two.
Jim
Offer still stands I'm buying the first round or two.Jim
brownie0486
Member
milgunshooter;
While I agree that an ounce of prevention prevents a lot of trouble down the road, just having a gun certainly does not mean your options in the scenario are any better with a gun in your gut or face initially.
You'll still have to fight to the gun if you know how which means H2H skills after disarming skills. Which leads me to this point---you haven't spent all your options not having a gun as you suggest, UNLESS-------you look at the gun as some saviour and substitute for lack of other skills.
Brownie
While I agree that an ounce of prevention prevents a lot of trouble down the road, just having a gun certainly does not mean your options in the scenario are any better with a gun in your gut or face initially.
You'll still have to fight to the gun if you know how which means H2H skills after disarming skills. Which leads me to this point---you haven't spent all your options not having a gun as you suggest, UNLESS-------you look at the gun as some saviour and substitute for lack of other skills.
Brownie
JMusic
member
Biker paranoid Sociopath was probably a little strong, and I'm sure I misspelled it. How about street wise?
Jim
Jim
You notice I only disputed paranoid. They *are* after me!
If you get within 200 miles of Pocatello Idaho, let me know and we'll have the big Beerdown.Or, if the opportunity was presented, we could do at at my very humble abode while I BBQd elk steaks. That would be a good time, Bro.
Biker
They *are* after me!If you get within 200 miles of Pocatello Idaho, let me know and we'll have the big Beerdown.Or, if the opportunity was presented, we could do at at my very humble abode while I BBQd elk steaks. That would be a good time, Bro.
Biker
JMusic
member
Count on it
Jim
Jim
carebear
Member
At least you aren't bitter...
Always sucks when the bad guys get away with it.
Always sucks when the bad guys get away with it.
crofrog
Member
Did you recongize all the sign's of a pending criminal assult? That should have set off all sorts of alarm bells.
Yeah part of the gangsta culture and "bling bling" is saying that your so tough your willing to walk around with gold and diamonds flashing and dazzling others while living in the ghetto because you have so much respect and you are feared. So yes wearing obviously attention grabbing bling around them is an insult if they do not feel your as tough as the bling says you are. Yes they are retarded, but know your enemy.
As for myself, well I currently do not have others dependent on me for thier well being so I personaly would be willing to accept death standing up for myself in such a situation. Using all available skills I would try my best to insure it was not myself that is severely injured or killed however. We all die, nobody dies peacefully in thier sleep, that is a myth that allows people to accept death of people they care about easier, or fear death themselves less. People that die sleeping usualy die of a heart attack or stroke that they likely wake up for a couple seconds from. Death is caused by necessary organs failing or dying or starving due to lack of nutrients, oxygen, blood etc...not because 'thier time has come'.
My point is we all die, so to me it is not about trying not to die, but trying to live for my beliefs. If those beliefs lead to my death then that is unfortunate. But changing your beliefs and values to suit situations that come your way in life leave you in the end with a life not worth having been lived. I do not believe someone should benefit easily at my expense, whether they have a gun or not, if I see an opportunity I will take it, even if that involves taking some shots to use my final seconds of life returning shots. Bullets do not kill you, the failure of your system to function shortly after from the holes made do. Even severe fatal shots will usualy leave you alive for 15+ seconds able to take whatever action you choose. Many dead medal of honor recipients could testify to this, or Japanese bonzai (holding swords) rushes in ww2 where after multiple clearly fatal rifle rounds are fired into them they proceed to mortaly wound others before dying. Most people are so shocked by being shot they use those few remainign seconds to ponder the shock or focus on the pain, but trained determined individuals do not have to.
You are always armed, even if only with the other persons gun being pointed at you. Almost any type of firearm can be rendered a single shot if you grab it in the right place. Whether that is the slide/magazine release of an auto, or the hammer/wheel of a revolver, if your good and your close you should have a firearm away from someone, especialy if held in gangster sideways fashion without additional rounds cycling. Or repositioned so that if thier grip does not release they are forced to fire in thier own direction. If your goal is to kill or seriously injure them and not to try to take no damage it becomes even easier. If you have a knife or other 1 hand bladed weapon you can cut out a throat or severe the tendons of the hand holding the gun, or severe the brachial nerves needed to operate thier arm while they are struggling to secure the weapon. One thing about people with guns is that they are entirely focused on the weapon, so they primarly focus thier attention on retaining it above everything else, leaving themselves seriously open and vulnerable, especialy if they are convinced your sole intention is taking it. Also yanking the firearm directly away while pointing it in another direction while limiting its ability to cycle another round has just caused the weapon to likely be fired and stuck with an empty chamber until another is manualy cycled in with most automatics. Buying you nuetral ground to continue the struggle.
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