Terminight,
Have you practiced this with Simunition weapons or is this real-world experience?
Have you practiced this with Simunition weapons or is this real-world experience?
Someone Pulls a Gun On You and You're Unarmed!
- Thread starter NickBallard
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Terminight
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No, I have never had a gun in my face. This is called playing the percentiges, going for an I could survive over a no way in hell scenario. Over the years, hanging out with military, martial artists and the kind of people that would do that to someone I have come to the decision that there is no way I could get the gun out of his hand with any level of force. The majortiy of us are just a bit too small to handle that. But if you control the wrist and stay inside of his weapon your very out of range and you havent threatened his mind set by "wrassling" his weapon, nor did you have to run for cover and if you work quickly with the targets avalible your chances are better than if you worked with the weapon alone. After all is it the brain or the bullets? Take the brain.
The reason I say most are too small is because no one in their right mind would attack someone bigger than they are unless they had a serious reason. Think about it, would you rob Joe C (if he were still here) or Mike Tyson? Mike Tyson will rip the hand off with the gun, no one robs someone bigger than them.
As for our Special Forces folks that do that for a living or ledgendary SWAT members I have only one thing to say; 6'4, 256 lbs.? Sure he can take the gun from a wastoid dealer or badly trained, badly fed terrorist. No disrespect intended, I sure as hell cant.
The reason I say most are too small is because no one in their right mind would attack someone bigger than they are unless they had a serious reason. Think about it, would you rob Joe C (if he were still here) or Mike Tyson? Mike Tyson will rip the hand off with the gun, no one robs someone bigger than them.
As for our Special Forces folks that do that for a living or ledgendary SWAT members I have only one thing to say; 6'4, 256 lbs.? Sure he can take the gun from a wastoid dealer or badly trained, badly fed terrorist. No disrespect intended, I sure as hell cant.
Cosmoline
Member
It totally depends. If they know what they're doing and have the drop on me, I will have no choice but to comply. If it's some sketchy punk (like it usually is), I'll toss the wallet's contents and run away. A flurry of C notes has a way of distracting attention. If he's still picking them up when I come back with the rifle, it's his turn to decide whether to comply or not--but with the rifle I will win the fight.
Keep in mind, I might do this EVEN IF I'm armed with a CCW. The decision to deploy the sidearm or not is always in the balance. In a toe-to-toe shootout with someone equally armed there's still a good chance you'll get hit or that neither of you will hit. Going to get a long gun or get help, depending on the conditions and the law of your land, is always an option to weigh.
Trying to muscle the guy is the last option, to be used only if no other is possible. But remember that the muzzle blast of even a small handgun is enough to burn you badly if you're too close. Not to mention the shock impact of the noise and pressure wave. If you do use hand-to-hand methods, remember he has a firearm. NO HOLDS ARE BARRED as long as he's got that firearm. Bite, head butt, use bricks to the skull, jump on his neck, kick his head, etc. Everything and anything. It's not a martial arts competition or a boxing match. You must be dead set on KILLING HIM with your hands until he drops the iron, after which your objective is to merely restrain him.
Keep in mind, I might do this EVEN IF I'm armed with a CCW. The decision to deploy the sidearm or not is always in the balance. In a toe-to-toe shootout with someone equally armed there's still a good chance you'll get hit or that neither of you will hit. Going to get a long gun or get help, depending on the conditions and the law of your land, is always an option to weigh.
Trying to muscle the guy is the last option, to be used only if no other is possible. But remember that the muzzle blast of even a small handgun is enough to burn you badly if you're too close. Not to mention the shock impact of the noise and pressure wave. If you do use hand-to-hand methods, remember he has a firearm. NO HOLDS ARE BARRED as long as he's got that firearm. Bite, head butt, use bricks to the skull, jump on his neck, kick his head, etc. Everything and anything. It's not a martial arts competition or a boxing match. You must be dead set on KILLING HIM with your hands until he drops the iron, after which your objective is to merely restrain him.
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Horsesense
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There are too many variables to give one pat answer. I will say this, getting shot is not necessarily the end of the world. Statistically, most gunshots from a handgun, are not fatal or even incapacitating. I'm not saying plan on getting shot just plan on keeping on fighting.
Plan on getting something between your vitals and the direction the gun is pointing, as you make your move, (whatever move you decide to make) hands, arms etc. if necessary. At the same time move! You can see the gun and if its pointing at something you want to keep...MOVE IT OUT OF THE WAY!
Plan on getting something between your vitals and the direction the gun is pointing, as you make your move, (whatever move you decide to make) hands, arms etc. if necessary. At the same time move! You can see the gun and if its pointing at something you want to keep...MOVE IT OUT OF THE WAY!
Cosmoline
Member
He's still stealing my money and he still has a deadly weapon which he just threatened me with. I may be pressing matters as far as duty to retreat, but I'm confident in letting him choose to drop his firearm and my money or try to shoot me and face the consequences. In other states I'd be less confident. Check your codes.
Now a smart thief would drop his firearm and run off with my money, at which point I'd be on very thin ice shooting him. But most aren't that bright or bold.
Now a smart thief would drop his firearm and run off with my money, at which point I'd be on very thin ice shooting him. But most aren't that bright or bold.
tegemu
Member
Once in Downtown San Diego I had a punk put one of those tiny .22's to my temple and demand my money and Credit Cards, as I was fishing them out of my wallet, I convinced him that the credit cards would do him no good. With an unstable BG holding a .22 at your temple, he is the boss and he got my cash $700.00 that I was on the way to convert to travelers checks. However when he stepped a few feet away, I was after him with a vengeance, figuring that in the turmoil of attack and/or pursuit, the odds were very much in my favor. Unfortunately the rascal was more fleet-a-foot than this old man, so he got away.
crofrog
Member
1) I've never been mugged or heard of a mugging where the guy had is gun in a holster pretty piss poor tactics for a mugger.
crofrog
Member
Furthermore, I've repeatedly disarmed people that are bigger/faster/stronger than me that _knew_ I was going to disarm them. Depending on how they are holding the gun, it can be damn close to 100% winable. It requires Speed, and violence of action.
Once you start moving it's simple reaction time, and making sure you are moving the gun against his week muscles with your strong muscles.
Saddly, there are ways to hold someone at gun point that make it very close completly unwinable.
Once you start moving it's simple reaction time, and making sure you are moving the gun against his week muscles with your strong muscles.
Saddly, there are ways to hold someone at gun point that make it very close completly unwinable.
Mannlicher
Member
groan.....................
brownie0486
Member
Been trained professionally for my work in this skill back in 81.
The link below will take you to a vid clip of a BIG cop attempting to pull the trigger on me both from the front and rear [ full cylinder of 5 rds for both ]. BTW-he was unsuccesful and knew what I was about to do.
http://www.threatfocused.com/forums/showthread.php?t=155
Turn the volume up when you watch it, bang, bang, bang--
Brownie
The link below will take you to a vid clip of a BIG cop attempting to pull the trigger on me both from the front and rear [ full cylinder of 5 rds for both ]. BTW-he was unsuccesful and knew what I was about to do.
http://www.threatfocused.com/forums/showthread.php?t=155
Turn the volume up when you watch it, bang, bang, bang--
Brownie
wheelgunslinger
Member
Very cool, Brownie!
thanks for putting this video up. And, you're right. that's a big cop.
thanks for putting this video up. And, you're right. that's a big cop.
brownie0486
Member
I worked with him on the dept back east for 5 years. State bodybuilding champ for 3 years, yup, his legs are bigger than my arms.
The move was not the full compliment of the technique, but if I were to finish it, his finger/wrist would likely be broken or he'd be shooting himself. How'd you like the rounds going off ?[ when I play, I play where if you fail in this endeavor it is really going to hurt ]
It gives incentive to do it right and not goof around.
The next to the last round from the front powder burned my shoulder, but the projectile missed.
Brownie
The move was not the full compliment of the technique, but if I were to finish it, his finger/wrist would likely be broken or he'd be shooting himself. How'd you like the rounds going off ?[ when I play, I play where if you fail in this endeavor it is really going to hurt
]It gives incentive to do it right and not goof around.
The next to the last round from the front powder burned my shoulder, but the projectile missed.
Brownie
NickBallard
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This zig-zag stuff
So some people say that you should run zig-zag away from someone who's firing a gun at you. So let's say that you're in the case where the person with the gun doesn't demand your car or money, but instead that you get in his car or go with him somewhere. This person is not firing at you, at least yet. I was thinking that if you just take off running as fast as you can from the armed person, you can cover a lot more distance in getting away than zig-zag, but if you run zig-zag it might be more difficult for him to aim and shoot. So what would you do in the situation where someone tries to get you to go in go with him at gunpoint?
So some people say that you should run zig-zag away from someone who's firing a gun at you. So let's say that you're in the case where the person with the gun doesn't demand your car or money, but instead that you get in his car or go with him somewhere. This person is not firing at you, at least yet. I was thinking that if you just take off running as fast as you can from the armed person, you can cover a lot more distance in getting away than zig-zag, but if you run zig-zag it might be more difficult for him to aim and shoot. So what would you do in the situation where someone tries to get you to go in go with him at gunpoint?
If someone tries to force me into a vehicle at gunpoint, I can say without a doubt that I wouldn't go. I'd say something along the lines of "If you're gonna kill me, it's gonna be right here and right now, where everyone can see and hear ya".
Biker
Biker
brownie0486
Member
Statistics are not good for staying alive if you get in a car at gunpoint. Most end up being found dead that are taken hostage.
No thanks, like Biker mentions, the time to act is right then, they'll get my body in the car but they'll have to pick it up like a sack of potatoes as it will be limp and lifeless.
The other atlernative, they'll be limp and lifeless
Brownie
No thanks, like Biker mentions, the time to act is right then, they'll get my body in the car but they'll have to pick it up like a sack of potatoes as it will be limp and lifeless.
The other atlernative, they'll be limp and lifeless
Brownie
carebear
Member
I'm still figuring out what to do with the knowledge that Cosmo carries
All I have to do is stake out Spenard, get the drop on him somehow, then beat feet before he comes back with the rifle.
There's something about 5 rounds of .357 that makes that plan less attractive.
.
All I have to do is stake out Spenard, get the drop on him somehow, then beat feet before he comes back with the rifle.
There's something about 5 rounds of .357 that makes that plan less attractive.
NickBallard,
Everyone has said don't get taken. If they're trying to take you they're trying to get you unde more control so they can do what they want with you in relative privacy. Don't go with them. You've got a chance out in the open. You've got no chance sitting in the back of a car or 'round the corner in an abandoned house.
Run or fight, but don't go with them if you want to live.
Everyone has said don't get taken. If they're trying to take you they're trying to get you unde more control so they can do what they want with you in relative privacy. Don't go with them. You've got a chance out in the open. You've got no chance sitting in the back of a car or 'round the corner in an abandoned house.
Run or fight, but don't go with them if you want to live.
JMusic
member
I've disarmed a few people and like what was said and Brownie's video confirms it is action vs reaction if they are close enough. More importantly I have talked my way out of two robberys. Both times I had my hand behind my back trying to find my flashlight. I quickly picked up that they thought I had a weapon and played along. Both times we mutually decided to disengage. Why did I not have a weapon? It was illegal to do so.
Jim
Jim
Ryder
Member
There are times you can do nothing. I can't outrun a bullet and they don't always want money. The guy who stuck a loaded 38 in my face only wanted me dead, nothing more, nothing less. It was a case of mistaken idenity. Stalling tactics and the intervention of a friend turned it around. If I'd tried some fancy move early on I would have been killed needlessly and without a doubt more than thirty years ago.
Living can end any second. I'd rather fear not having good friends than my inevitable death. When your number is up, it's up. The guy who created this picture would know something about that. He rests in peace. A good man dead at a young age from a brain aneurism.
Living can end any second. I'd rather fear not having good friends than my inevitable death. When your number is up, it's up. The guy who created this picture would know something about that. He rests in peace. A good man dead at a young age from a brain aneurism.
NickBallard
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hso, I know that you shouldn't be taken with the armed person. My question was if you should just run as fast as you can from the situation (which means straight line, so you'll get out of there faster but may be easier to hit at any given time) or zig-zag (you won't gain as much distance, but may be more difficult to hit at any given time).
Depends. You should avoid running in a straight line unless it takes you to cover or concealment right away. If a target moves away in a straight line it's much easier to aim and hit than if it's moving in some way that changes along the XY axis. The less smooth that movement is the more difficult it is to hit.
If I was 21 feet from the corner of a street or the entrance of a building or anything that would block the shooter from seeing me I'd take the straight path as the quickest so I could put that cover/concealment between us. If I was at a much greater distance to cover I'd work on a looping or broken movement so that they'd have more difficulty aiming.
If you're a great sprinter you may use 30, 40 or even 50 feet as a rule of thumb for distance before going into broken field running. If you're a fat old man with bad knees and poor wind (except when I "break" wind that is ) then shorter distances may be needed. Only you know what your capabilities are.
If you're well trained and well practiced you may decide on disarming. Don't get into a struggle for the gun because you'll get shot. If you know you can knock or take it away do it, but don't just fight for it.
If you can talk your way out or buy your way out that trumps running or fighting. Only a fool fights when they don't have to. Knowing when that's not going to work is the challenge.
The situation drives the response.
If I was 21 feet from the corner of a street or the entrance of a building or anything that would block the shooter from seeing me I'd take the straight path as the quickest so I could put that cover/concealment between us. If I was at a much greater distance to cover I'd work on a looping or broken movement so that they'd have more difficulty aiming.
If you're a great sprinter you may use 30, 40 or even 50 feet as a rule of thumb for distance before going into broken field running. If you're a fat old man with bad knees and poor wind (except when I "break" wind that is
) then shorter distances may be needed. Only you know what your capabilities are.If you're well trained and well practiced you may decide on disarming. Don't get into a struggle for the gun because you'll get shot. If you know you can knock or take it away do it, but don't just fight for it.
If you can talk your way out or buy your way out that trumps running or fighting. Only a fool fights when they don't have to. Knowing when that's not going to work is the challenge.
The situation drives the response.
brownie0486
Member
If I'd tried some fancy move early on I would have been killed needlessly and without a doubt more than thirty years ago.
Thought process sir------If I'd tried some fancy move
The mindset is not one to "try" to disarm. The physical side of it is you either have the training to pull it off, or you don't.
When you have the training, you know it is not fancy, but extremely straight forward in it's nature, with extreme speed and extreme violence in your heart for them when you make the move.
Your mindset better be one of "I am going to do this", not one of hesitation or doubt you'll win. Thats the cerebral side.
The physical side to the equation is your are going to rip this gun from his hand/s and jam it his freakin arse and pull the trigger or you are going to strip the gun away, and shoot him with it before he can try to struggle for it after you have it. Either physical act requires that you are capable and willing to do just that, or you should not be attemting to act like a sheepdog or wolf yourself and just stay the sheep he thought you were when he picked you as a victim.
If one doesnt have the stomach to try it, and carry it through to getting it done and that usually will mean killing someone, don't get the training and don't ever attempt it.
It's no time to be PC, hesitant mentally or physically to kill, you'll get your self seriously injured or killed in the process if you have any doubt who is going to win this [ even if you lose which is always a possibility ].
If I lose, I'll be losing with the attitude above, not thinking I'm about to try something and that it is fancy in anyway.
Mindest, and the physical skills to go with it to kill another in the blink of an eye without hesitation, or walk the earth as sheep.
No thank you. I didn't get the training I have to be that, nor will I ever livd my life in that manner.
As you boys from NH know oh so well----"Don't tread on me", and live another day to pick a better victim than myself, cause you've made a deadly mistake with picking me.
Brownie
Brownie
Thought process sir------If I'd tried some fancy move
The mindset is not one to "try" to disarm. The physical side of it is you either have the training to pull it off, or you don't.
When you have the training, you know it is not fancy, but extremely straight forward in it's nature, with extreme speed and extreme violence in your heart for them when you make the move.
Your mindset better be one of "I am going to do this", not one of hesitation or doubt you'll win. Thats the cerebral side.
The physical side to the equation is your are going to rip this gun from his hand/s and jam it his freakin arse and pull the trigger or you are going to strip the gun away, and shoot him with it before he can try to struggle for it after you have it. Either physical act requires that you are capable and willing to do just that, or you should not be attemting to act like a sheepdog or wolf yourself and just stay the sheep he thought you were when he picked you as a victim.
If one doesnt have the stomach to try it, and carry it through to getting it done and that usually will mean killing someone, don't get the training and don't ever attempt it.
It's no time to be PC, hesitant mentally or physically to kill, you'll get your self seriously injured or killed in the process if you have any doubt who is going to win this [ even if you lose which is always a possibility ].
If I lose, I'll be losing with the attitude above, not thinking I'm about to try something and that it is fancy in anyway.
Mindest, and the physical skills to go with it to kill another in the blink of an eye without hesitation, or walk the earth as sheep.
No thank you. I didn't get the training I have to be that, nor will I ever livd my life in that manner.
As you boys from NH know oh so well----"Don't tread on me", and live another day to pick a better victim than myself, cause you've made a deadly mistake with picking me.
Brownie
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