sniper rifle
- Thread starter Tape
- Start date
- Status
1stmarine
Member
There is no best snipe rifle. There are many capable of pretty much the same thing. Also there is mission/purpose and that defines what is the best round to use and therefore what system is needed.
They say the cheytag .402 round is amazing but I have never used one and would love to see more of that. In my experience there is virtually nothing that a good system cannot do with a good .338 lapua or 50 BMG round depending on the purpose.
They say the cheytag .402 round is amazing but I have never used one and would love to see more of that. In my experience there is virtually nothing that a good system cannot do with a good .338 lapua or 50 BMG round depending on the purpose.
nblanton
Member
Tape, are you talking about the difference between accuracy of an experimental set of results and the precision of the results? I think I see what you are getting at, but I don't think a vice and indoor shooting environment alone would provide the results you say it would. The powder load, primers, and bullet shape/mass would have to be equally similar to achieve the level of accuracy that you indicate, or maybe at 50 yards a controlled environment and an extremely well viced rifle would achieve the result you mentioned. I think that it may be possible to do what you say, but I would need to see some experimental results to prove your hypothesis. Also, I'm not sure exactly what this matters to the OP. Seemed to me he wanted either a lead on the best tacticool bolt rifle or a flame war. Seems most of the posts were about the necessity of said rifle for the OP. I'm pretty sure all my weapons are much more accurate than I am, but that doesn't mean the reputation of their accuracy didn't come into play during the purchase.
Zak Smith
Member
Shooting a 0.3" group at 50 yards proves nothing other than that the .30 caliber rifle you're shooting can shoot a 0.57 MOA group. If you're trying to prove anything, groups need to include at least 5 rounds and there can be no called fliers. There are plenty of guns that will not shoot 0.57 MOA groups, and I would be very surprised if an average hunting rifle shooting hunting ammo (ie, a .30-06 or .30-30) would be able to do that even from a mechanical rest.
BTW, if you are trying to prove that all inaccuracy comes from the shooter and that any two off the shelf rifles can shoot "one hole" at even 50 yards, if bolted into a mechanical rest, there is no point. It is false. If that were true, then accuracy would not depend on barrel quality, bullet choice, and "load", yet it does. Anyone who has done any load development, or tried to find the best load for their rifle knows that. Also, what is the relevance of a mechanical rest to this test if I can shoot 0.5 MOA groups with my choice of rifle at 50 yards? Think about that for a second.
BTW, if you are trying to prove that all inaccuracy comes from the shooter and that any two off the shelf rifles can shoot "one hole" at even 50 yards, if bolted into a mechanical rest, there is no point. It is false. If that were true, then accuracy would not depend on barrel quality, bullet choice, and "load", yet it does. Anyone who has done any load development, or tried to find the best load for their rifle knows that. Also, what is the relevance of a mechanical rest to this test if I can shoot 0.5 MOA groups with my choice of rifle at 50 yards? Think about that for a second.
Tim the student
Member
Tape said:
Tape said:
I don't see that your claim was solely about a 30-30 and an 06. Why not use a nice old rusty Mosin? Or an AK? How about 5 shots, like you stated?
Tape said:
Just to clarify, how are you defining "hole"? A group of around .5" that is one hole, or a .000" group?
Looking forward to your test.
1stmarine
Member
Wise words. Sniper systems are in the upwards of $14K gear included just to start talking.
Then that is nothing compared to all the work of load development and training. In the end the system is nothing compared to what is needed to all the training and long hours to achieve great results. In the military is hundreds and hundreds of thousands of dollars for an elite sniper team of 2.
Cheers.
E.
Then that is nothing compared to all the work of load development and training. In the end the system is nothing compared to what is needed to all the training and long hours to achieve great results. In the military is hundreds and hundreds of thousands of dollars for an elite sniper team of 2.
Cheers.
E.
1stmarine said:
The co-owner of my local gun shop just graduated from the Army Sniper program after two months of training. He completed the course using his own Remington action in an AICS with a Nightforce scope and his own SCAR heavy with a Leupold Mark 4 3.5-10x. The Army provided NV stuff as needed but his equipment including both rifles and optics was less than $10,000. When you consider that the Army is now issuing Remington actions in AICS stocks chambered in .300 Win Mag and calling them the Mk 13 Mod 5, this doesn't seem like a big budget operation.
Anyone can buy an AI AWM chambered in .300 Win Mag or .338 Lapua and add a 5-25x S&B and be under $10,000 and have the same package that's being used by British snipers today. A custom build equivalent to the Mk 13 Mod 5 only costs around $3,500 or less.
Zak Smith
Member
If you mean a 0.00" group, no rifle will do that in a machine rest either.
If you mean holes touching, IE, a group size less than the caliber, you will lose that bet.
Check the group sizes that sanctioned Benchrest competitions are typically won with. The max center to center distances are usually around 0.10" per 100 yards distance (ie looking at 100 and 200 yard BR scores). That's aggregate, not just one group.
I'm not a BR shooter, but here's 3 .308 rounds at 100 yards. You can imagine it half the size at 50
http://demigodllc.com/~zak/DigiCam/CSGW-ST10/?small=D101_2990_img.jpg
Here's another 100 yard group - you can imagine it half the size for 50
http://demigodllc.com/photo/6.5x47Lapua/?small=D101_6005_img.jpg
1stmarine
Member
1858,
Roger that but there is more in the gear to be a effective sniper team
and that's what I said just to get started. I don't know the actual figure but in the end my point is that it is nothing with all the barrels, loads and stuff vs. all the training investment that is up there in the heavens.
The zero group is like the holy grail. I read once an article about some sort of device wiht a 10 inch section barrel shooting a 22 caliber bullet at 5000 fps that achieved zero at lasted some dozen shots or so
before it was burned. I don't really recall all details, some crazy laboratory stuff. Nothing related to the real life.
And for those close to zero crusaders (zero is not possible), and to be the best of the extreme accuracy competition this is a good example of what it takes.....
http://www.6mmbr.com/6ppc.html
Read, inform yourselves and think a little.
Roger that but there is more in the gear to be a effective sniper team
and that's what I said just to get started. I don't know the actual figure but in the end my point is that it is nothing with all the barrels, loads and stuff vs. all the training investment that is up there in the heavens.
The zero group is like the holy grail. I read once an article about some sort of device wiht a 10 inch section barrel shooting a 22 caliber bullet at 5000 fps that achieved zero at lasted some dozen shots or so
before it was burned. I don't really recall all details, some crazy laboratory stuff. Nothing related to the real life.
And for those close to zero crusaders (zero is not possible), and to be the best of the extreme accuracy competition this is a good example of what it takes.....
http://www.6mmbr.com/6ppc.html
Read, inform yourselves and think a little.
Last edited:
SeekHer
Member
There are 100 yd indoor ranges just not very many of them in the USA but in Europe there are quite a number.
Zak --3 shot groups don't count for squat in BR shooting, it's 5 shots or five or ten target with one shot each shooting for Xs.
This is a rail gun builder R. E. McClusky...Mine is identical to the purple/burgundy one but in green but check out the target pictured 0.053" at 100 yds.
Zak --3 shot groups don't count for squat in BR shooting, it's 5 shots or five or ten target with one shot each shooting for Xs.
This is a rail gun builder R. E. McClusky...Mine is identical to the purple/burgundy one but in green but check out the target pictured 0.053" at 100 yds.
Zak Smith
Member
There's at least one 100 yard indoor range in the Denver area alone.
I didn't say they did. I was using BR records and some of my "non BR" 3-round groups to disprove
Get R Done Guns
Member
Man, you all get heated up!!!! I like it!! 
Cryogaijin
Member
Something one must consider as well when talking about group size is random chance. The last >>25<< round group of my .308 saiga was absurdly tight (at 50 yards) So tight that I started looking for fliers and didn't find any. I know for a fact that the group was better than anything the gun could do consistantly, it was just a case of a VERY VERY lucky string.
And was terribly fun.
And was terribly fun.
MtnCreek
Member
Tape,
If you’re near the West GA, East AL area, PM me. I may be able to supply an indoor shooting range @ approx. 100 yds.
MtnCreek
If you’re near the West GA, East AL area, PM me. I may be able to supply an indoor shooting range @ approx. 100 yds.
MtnCreek
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
Well, before it was another drab discussion about which whatzit is teh bestest. Now it's getting interesting!
Admittedly this is a thread hijack, but it's YOUR thread, and YOU hijacked it, and have teased everyone along with tidbits of info and promises to prove a theory (unfortunately, without explaining clearly WHAT that theory really is), so no, I don't think it should be closed now.
But, so we can stop speculating, will you please state clearly what your theory actually is? What is it you feel you can prove with your test equipment? If you put it in specifics, maybe folks will stop accusing you of believing unbelievable things that you don't actually believe!
Thank you.
Cryogaijin
Member
Except that random chance IS a factor. Getting a 2/3rd MOA group of 25 at 50 yards is unlikely to ever happen again with the gun. (if it does, I'll continue to be amazed) OTOH my hunting rifle regularly, repeatably, consistantly shoots 1/3rd MOA benched and bagged with quality hunting ammo or handloads.
Nope, just pointing out that random chance is a factor.
Snakum
Member
Having gone to school on the M21 platform I'd recommend something else, in a bolt gun. Even the newest match M1As, while great weapons, are probably not going to shoot as well as an off the shelf heavy barreled Savage 10 with the same ammo.
What the OP needs is a base model heavy barreled Savage or Remington, a good scope, a mountain of ammo and competent instruction. These guys that go right out and buy AIs and TRGs are really putting the cart before the horse.
Loved Ramone's post, btw. LMAO!
MtnCreek
Member
I'm a little confused; 2/3rd moa group of 25 at 50 yds. Please explain; I'm a little slow sometimes!
Snakum
Member
No, he didn't. That is one of the most ridiculous things I have ever heard. Just about anyone who served US Army combat arms, whether they went to B4 school or not, knows that is utter horse poop. I don't blame you, you don't know what you don't know. But please kick this guy in the nutz for me next time you see him.
nope, I didn't wanted it closed, see how you all play into my hand
I'll let you speculate until I'm ready.Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
Well, that response is going to get you nowhere around here, and we're not going to leave this open to collect flames and ridicule tossed your way.
If you get your theory figured out and devise a way to test it, and do the test, and it appears to prove what you think it will prove, start a new thread to share your findings.
Sounds like that will take quite a while, so get your ducks in a row and let us know when you're ready to explain.
If you get your theory figured out and devise a way to test it, and do the test, and it appears to prove what you think it will prove, start a new thread to share your findings.
Sounds like that will take quite a while, so get your ducks in a row and let us know when you're ready to explain.
- Status
