TwitchALot said:
if a fight broke out between that guy and other people (and it almost did, based on what I saw and the after-action discussion we had), I... just felt I had to be there for that.
That isn't exactly articulating a reasonable fear for your life, which is required for using the lethal force you were contemplating.
I think at this point you need to run through your mind and determine what would have happened if you had killed the guy. After all, the knife is for putting down a deadly threat, and you would need to articulate that in court. Make no mistake, once you brought the knife into the situation, you would have had to articulate fear of eminent death, irregardless of if there was a death or not.
TwitchALot said:
My conscience? The lives of the other people there? What I don't understand is how some of you can carry concealed and then say, "if you can deescalate a situation and prevent other people from getting hurt, you shouldn't do so. Just get out of there." To me it's mind boggling- how can you say CCW prevents and stops crime with a straight face when in your mind, you'd do nothing of the sort. "CCW does prevent and stop crime... just not mine because I wouldn't do it."
You’ve painted a scenario in which the option of calling the police was impossible. That’s faulty thinking. If you thought that you were needed to deescalate things, then the police were probably needed. At the time you probably were more concerned with what was happening then and there, than how you could discretely call the police. It’s understandable that you didn’t call them at the time, but this thread was started under the theme of determining how you could have handled it better, and calling the police may well have been one way of doing that. Another would have been to recognize the security measures taken by the restaurant owners as a “red flag”. While it’s understandable that you believed that you couldn’t have called the police, what you should be doing is trying to think of how you could have called them. Maybe you could have excused yourself and walked away from the restaurant to make the call, I don’t know. We don’t know the layout or particulars, but there are always options. The knife is for when those options have expired, and “just had to be there” for others, is not a failure of the options; it’s a choice to remain in a volatile situation. While I fully support your right to remaine there, and I don’t think you should have to “run away” from something when you are not the aggressor, the courts and juries may disagree with me. You have to decide if you are willing to take that risk. IOW: are you willing to sacrifice the rest of your life in prison, and all your money in lawyer fees to protect other people who didn’t have the sense to do something about he situation when they could have?
TwitchALot said:
It seems like you wouldn't even try to deescalate a situation when about a dozen other people have no idea what they're doing and are at risk. BG starts blasting up a school and with your CCW, you say to yourself, "well, I could stop this school shooting, but I'd be putting myself at risk, so I'm just going to get out of here."
This has nothing to do with the situation you were involved in. It’s called a “straw argument”. If you think they are even similar, then you are probably exercising poor judgment, and probably have and are giving us a poor accounting of the situation.
TwitchALot said:
Quite frankly, there's nothing wrong with that. But if I were in that situation, I'd put myself on the line, and truth be told, that's a decision left up to the individual.
Putting yourself in the line of fire is admirable to a certain degree. However, understand that society tends to frown upon people other than LEO doing such things, and you could face grave repercussions as a result. We’re not talking about survival here. We’re talking about prison, bankruptcy, and a ruined life. If you’re willing to accept that for someone else’s safety in a fist fight, then that’s your decision to make.
TwitchALot said:
Everyone is willing to accept a different amount of risk, and with all due respect, just because you would run away from such a situation doesn't mean that a decision to stay and help the other people is "hero syndrome." Unless you're willing to call your position, "cowardly syndrome." I don't think anybody who does what he thinks is right because he thinks it is right sees himself as a hero.
You asked for people’s advice on the Internet. Getting offended, and sniping back with derogatory comments makes you come off as a sort of “hot head”. I’m not saying you are, just saying that’s how it comes across. It also furthers the idea that you really didn’t “have to” be there.
That’s just my response to some of the things you’ve said so far in this thread. I’m not saying that you were right or wrong. That’s up to you to decide. These were just my observations, and ideas.
That said. Here are my opinions on the situation in which you were involved
First, you seem to think that being prepared to deploy your knife is different than being prepared to deploy a gun. I think that is a mistake. They are both considered “lethal force”, and even if you don’t kill someone with either, you will be treated as if you deployed “lethal force”. My advice would be to make sure you could articulate reasonable fear for your life before you reach for either.
Second, you seem to take the stance that calling the police was not an option. I think that “paints you into a corner”, and while I can’t say if it’s possible or not, I strongly urge you to consider it in hindsight. If that means getting up and leaving your friends there fine, if it means not staying when you saw the bars on the counter window, even better. Remember, you were/are considering “lethal force” for… what? Honor? Nobility? Again, if that is a risk you chose to take, then so be it. Just make sure you understand the risk. Seriously, sit down and think it through by starting with, “How could I have called the cops?” Don’t let the answer be in the negative. You may have to make some sacrifices to come to a solution (you may have to leave people at risk), but find several solutions. You can then decide it they are worth it to you.
One more thing. If you ever deploy a knife in a SD situation (this doesn’t sound like one), or any force on force situation, make sure you use it decisively. If your life is on the line, the last thing I think you should do at cutting distance is hesitate. If your life isn’t on the line, then the knife shouldn’t be an option.
That’s just my $.02. You ultimately have to decide whether/or not your actions are worth the risk they entail. Please understand that IANAL, and I have no experience in such matters. I’m just some guy on the Internet giving free advice. Consider it worth what you paid for it.