So, I work at a gunstore and...

[cwp3420]

I work at a large sporting goods store in New Mexico. I always hand the customer a revolver open or an auto with the slide locked back. We have 2 large fluorescent targets stapled up high behind the counter that says "Aim Here!". We always advise the customer of this. However, we still get people ignorant of how to safely handle weapons and try our best to educate them in the time allowed. I had one woman come in with 3 small children in the shopping cart. She wanted a revolver as her husband was out of town occasionally. I handed her a Ruger SP-101 and she immediately shut the cylinder, pointed it at her children, and pulled the trigger 3 times! Before any of us could say anything, she said "Gee, I could have taken them out all at once!" I grabbed the gun out of her hand before she could do anything else. We called security and had her removed from the store. To this day I don't know what she was thinking, or not thinking as the case may be. I sincerely hope she never does buy a firearm, at least until she has had some training.

 

[WVMountainBoy]

On the point of signs...
I work in a police detachment which is located on a larger police compound where many things take place in different buildings/offices. There are two doors that face the parking lot on the one to the far right it says "TROOPERS ENTRANCE ONLY" then just below that it says "PUBLIC ENTRANCE" with a large red arrow pointing towards said public entrance. We still get members of the public pounding on this door at all hours. The second funny thing about signs, On the "Public" entrance there is a sign that says "Fingerprints and backgrounds are NOT handled in this building, they are handled in the large brick building. Go between this building and the other white building and you will see the building with the flag poles, enter through the glass doors" and we get between five and ten people every day who walk into the office and up to the clerk and tell them they are here for fingerprints.

 

[shootingthebreeze]

Have a professional sign made which states "When handling firearms always keep the firearm pointed in a neutral, safe direction." As a dealer you don't want to ruffle customer feathers but you also want proper behavior because it's your store-thus, customers are guests as well.
Myself as a retired veteran, it bothers me how careless civilians can be and that really comes from not being trained properly.

 

[popper]

Yea, my wife did that to me, it WAS loaded and she had her finger ON the trigger.
I've GOT to send her to a class.

 

[dirtykid]

Unfortunately your gun shop is where most people are gonna come first,BEFORE they have taken any "training",, in our society today ALOT of people seek instant gratification,, i gotta go buy a gun NOW and i dont wanna have to wait,because it's my RIGHT !! ,,, seen it way too often,,, In Mn here,there was a couple congress-folk that thought the standard "waiting period" was un-constitutional and that we should abolish the law supporting it !! I hope for my,and my family's sake they dont suceed ! we have had an incident in town here already where some guy starting having a heart-attack while driving and drifted off-road into or towards a crow gathered for fireworks,, So we have Mr pistol-packin cowboy draw his weapon and aim at 80+ yr old dude in car,,, like he was attacking !! He lost his pistol-permit for life i think,, and that is just 1 of many examples i have witnessed that left me wondering, Who trained these people ?? I think it has to start somewhere, So be a hero, (again) and TEACH people as you sell, the gun shop i 1st started buying guns from corrected me on handling and shooting techniques the first day i was there to browse,, i still buy guns from him and respect them for taking the time to CARE about how the gun they were selling was going to be handled,,

 

[btg3]

...a sign that says "Fingerprints and backgrounds are NOT handled in this building, they are handled in the large brick building. Go between this building and the other white building and you will see the building with the flag poles, enter through the glass doors"...

This sign is not working. Why? Do you need a sign that says "Read the Sign"?

Some signs are more effective than others and there are reasons. Think about it, and if a solution can't be identified, get help from a Visual Management professional (which is something that many professional sign-makers are clueless about).

 

[Gouranga]

Myself as a retired veteran...

I don't know about that. My grandfather had some interesting stories about basic. Said the guy next to him on the line. Pulled the trigger, the gun (M1 Garand) went click with no discharge. He pointed the weapon right in the face of the officer watching him and said something along the lines of "I won't work. I think the barrel is plugged and you see anything?". Course that was the last time that particular person ever saw a firing line.

 

[451 Detonics]

I owned a brick and mortar store for 20 years...all I can say is learn to live with it happening, wear a vest, and develop toleration moderated by basic polite instruction in gun handling...

or quit and find other work cause things aren't going to change

 

[reuben mishler]

I think that most civilians have not had the proper training as far as handling firearms. This is not to be taken that ALL civilians don't know how to handle a firearm....just merely that the more recent generations were not brought up with firearms as most of us where, and so they just simply don't know the basic rules that we, as respectful firearm owners and handlers do.

You could think of working at a gun store as, your chance to make a difference. If someone starts doing that, let them know, be polite and inform them. Most likely they are just excited about the product you just put in their hand. They might even thank you for letting them know, and also tell you they either forgot....or didn't know.

This isn't to excuse their actions, just that most folks today, were not given the upbringing with firearms as it sounds that you were or the rest of us on this thread.

I think the further and longer that society thinks firearms are largely tools of destruction, the less amount of people will learn the proper safety fundamentals of these items.

 

[RonDeer10mm]

You know what pisses me off, when I go to a gunstore and they treat a new gun owner that say the most ridiculous things better than a experienced gun owner...

 

[Iftrue]

@RonDeer10mm:

Sounds about right to me. Would you really want to scare off someone that could be a life-time customer? Experienced gun owners probably won't stop buying guns because you sternly told them to control their muzzle.

 

[jim goose]

I love the gun range ego. Seems everyone who can point a gun is an expert and needs no advice. I check out when those people arrive. And they are not the local gang banger types. usually middle age, professional types.

I saw a guy pulling a new glock trigger lower left until he tweaked his brand new crimson trace grips so hard he stripped the screws adjusting for it. I tried to interject some modesty, but when that failed, I checked out.

 

[JohnF Boulder Co]

earlthegoat2
...
I suppose it is also unsafe to check the rifling on a revolver by looking down the muzzle with the cylinder opened.

There are practical limits to gun safety folks. I am always the one who has to say this because everyone else is too afraid to. Safety is good but sensible safety is better.

Mr.Davis
I suppose you're okay with me dry firing one of my pistols in your direction then, right? Don't worry, I cleared it first.

I recognize that if you imagine a laser beam coming out of the barrel of a gunship pistol, it's basically impossible to get it out of the case and into the customer's hands without sweeping someone. That doesn't mean that we should accept a customer (or employee) casually pointing that gun in the direction of other people.

I've been swept by more clerks than customers, personally. Either way it's an uncomfortable feeling to have a gun pointed my way, and it should be discouraged.

Perhaps a quick "Please be careful to keep the gun pointed in a safe direction" while handing it over would prevent some of this carelessness.

Big difference between a casual sweep, 1.5 seconds after they watched you make sure it's clear, and dry-firing it at someone who just walked into line of sight...

As I remember from somewhere online, Cooper himself said that it's possible to take "the rules" to ridiculous extremes, but just that fact means that people are aware of them and of what they're doing.

One store around here is so small that it's almost impossible to point something as long as a carbine in any direction without bumping it against something or into someone's way, let alone standing ogling something in a case and being in someone's way...

Some one here mentioned being "muzzle swept" by a holstered gun, and should you take afront? Common sense.

Working retail sux, but we do our best with signage and talking. If you've got to get "preachy" with some rules before letting them handle merchandise, they'd better get used to it, because we can't change our necessary routine -especially those of you who work around weaponry.


Then there's this:
http://www.ignatius-piazza-front-sight.com/2009/02/16/this-makes-my-heart-bleed/

In Richard Bach's book "Stranger to the ground", he's telling about his time flying in the USAF. He mentions something about the F-86 (I think -it's probably endemic to all planes and just about everything else):
They had lots of incidents of pilots bringing their planes in for picture-perfect landings, right down the runway, and "bang! scrape! crunch!" forgetting to put their wheels down...
They made it a checklist item and it cleared the problem mostly, but still they'd have pilots getting in a hurry; they know the drill, they do it a million times, so they scribble checks on the list and scrape their planes down the ground.
They made it a mandatory item for the tower to query them about to make sure, and still they'd get in a hurry and skip something routine and ruin another plane.
They redesigned the cockpit so that in order for the pilot to see over the nose, he'd adjust the seat and the gear lever was set so that it's conspicuously in the way unless they lowered the gear...
Buzzers, warning lights, etc, etc. And still it happens.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

As I remember from somewhere online, Cooper himself said that it's possible to take "the rules" to ridiculous extremes, but just that fact means that people are aware of them and of what they're doing.

Check out Jeff pointing his pistol over the berm and covering his leg as he reholsters. There is a very clear closeup of him covering his own leg as he reholsters at 2:44... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ci3uPXj6Dpo&feature=related Nobody would want to take gun safety to ridiculous extremes, that is clear from his actions. Of course, you have to be safe before you can take safety to ridiculous extremes.

Here is one of his "training" videos where he pretty well violates ALL of his safety rules.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKgAkwB8WRo

Quoting Cooper himself from his safety rules...

Make these rules a part of your character. Never compromise them. Improper gunhandling results from ignorance and improper role modeling, such as handling your gun like your favorite actor does. Education can cure this. You can make a difference by following these gunhandling rules and insisting that those around you do the same. Set the example. Who knows what tragedies you, or someone you influence, may prevent?

 

[xcgates]

Every thing in moderation, including moderation.

There is a time and place for (most) everything.

 

[rhodco]

Ignorance can be fixed. Stupid is forever.

You can't get mad at people who don't know any better. But, those who do know better and get careless... or think it's funny... would get a punch to the head from me.

 

[Uteridge]

Exactly. I do mind have any kind of gun, loaded or unloaded, pointed at me but I don't mind working with someone who just doesn't know what they are doing. I enjoy working with new shooters because they are usually happy to learn.

What bugs me are the guys who already own guns or have a military/LE background but have horrible gun handling techniques. Many of those guys don't like being corrected or taught. I don't run into those guys often but when I do I kick them off my range as quickly as humanly possible. If I am running a range I am responsible for the safety on that range; if you own a gunshop you are responsible for the safety in that shop. YOu don't want people who know better but are careless or just don't care in your area of responsiblity.

 

[wsm]

message

I must be going blind. I have read every post in this thread and I cannot find out what WRONG message he's talking about. Please correct me.:banghead::banghead::banghead:

 

[btg3]

wsm -- see post #33

 

[sierrabravo45]

I have been on both sides of the counter. I am glad I stopped working at a gun store, (not because of muzzle sweeps) but because I spent to much money on guns. I actually asked the owner one time if I could get every 3rd paycheck in store credit.

MOST people, (I am using Most, but I feel IQ in people is dropping rapidly) don't violate the basic principles with guns, they try to keep the muzzle in a safe direction etc. But some do not. I think to have Problems in Gun stores whether this be muzzle sweeps, opening ammo etc, or doing what YOU think is wrong comes down to a two things.

1. Lack of PROPER training

2. Ignorance

While the second You can't do much about, the first YOU can.

Use proper instruction if someone is doing something wrong, first ask the person to stop the muzzle sweep, and instead of yelling at them, instruct them why it is wrong etc. Stopping a person mid act, makes them realize what they did was wrong. But just yelling at them won't help.

Another option (what I did) BEFORE I ever handed the customer a gun, I would INSTRUCT them where they could safely point a handgun, rifle, shotgun etc. This solved MOST of the problems. I would occasionally get muzzle swept, but proper instruction beforehand normally prevented this.

 

[btg3]

BEFORE I ever handed the customer a gun, I would INSTRUCT them where they could safely point a handgun, rifle, shotgun etc. This solved MOST of the problems.

Kudos for taking action that proved effective!

Let's consider whether this muzzle sweep problem belongs to store management, store employees, or customers. In the end, you want muzzle sweep prevented regardless of who walks in the door and regardless of who's at work or on vacation -- so if you leave it up to customers or employees responsible for establishing/practicing a consistent procedure/policy you will be effective a small percentage of the time.

In this case, one employee has an effective solution. If management were to endorse this solution and train all employees to do the same thing, it has high potential to be effective -- maybe not 100% idiot-proof, but effective at some level.

Any better ideas?

 

[wsm]

message

Btg3.

I went back and read post #33. Either I can't read correctly or that post just says that him carrying sends the wrong message. I want someone to tell me what that wrong message is. Thanks for the reply BTG3.