Man defending home charged with murder

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Depends on the circumstances. Could you realistically go around in public snorting ordinary flour or powdered sugar and not get checked out at some point? Could you realistically be seen popping harmless pills of some kind and acting like a fool and not get checked out at some point? Can you carry a tightly wrapped package of modeling clay in your carry on luggage at the airport and not get checked out at some point?

Well then if the guy in question HAD been publicly witnessed rolling up the leaves from a japanese maple and smokin them, or had he been known for sellin the stuff/passing it off as pot, or some other action then I might buy the need for a regular search warrent. BUT he was not. Based on the information released, we see that someone broke into his home saw a few plants that they thought were pot, and then told the police about it to get out from under something else. But then again issuing a swat warrent to look into a possible small time growing outfit, from an obviously un-reliable individual, seems to be way off base some how!
 
Anti-LEO person would say something like:

"At least he took one of the bastards out."

:barf:

But since I'm a level headed person, I say we wait to see what actual FACTS are determined before we pass any judgements.

:rolleyes:
 
I am going to guess that the judge who signed off on the search warrant originally is not too happy at this point. I wonder if the FACTS presented to the judge matched the reality of the situation? I don't know how VA courts operate but in some jurisdictions the defense would have had an easy argument(if the policeman hadn't died) that the raid was not legal. Whoever presented and swore to the FACTS for the warrant is most likely in (or should be in) TROUBLE. Tragic result for the shooter and the policeman that died from someone else's dishonesty/stupidity.
 
Well, It would appear, from what's been released about this case, that the police screwed up (no matter which way you look at it) and it got one of their own killed. It's tragic. The deceased probably is survived by a family. The person to blame for his death isn't the guy who shot him, in this case, it would seem to me, is the person who thought up the brilliant idea to send in the police on a no knock warrant.

Given what they came away with (besides a dead cop and a 100 pound man in cuffs) wouldn't seem to justify the use of force that was put in play that night. All they found was a little bag of dope? when they went in thinking they were going to bust a growing operation? Something's missing here. It just doesn't add up.

Why did they need to go in at night?

Why did it take the police so long to breach the entrance that they couldn't effectively secure the scene?

Why didn't they have any active intel on their target? Couldn't they have waited a few days to figure out what was going on? Maybe they could have gotten a better handle on whether or not he was a big time drug dealer..

It looks like there's plenty of blame to go around but the only one paying any price for it is the one who had is domecile violated by law enforcement.

And ccd makes a good point about the judge who's name is on the warrant. If the right person doesn't burn over this, it will truely be a miscarriage of justice.
 
LET ME BE PERFECTLY CLEAR I AM NOT ADVOCATING THIS RESPONSE I AM MERELY STATING THAT IT IS ONLY A MATTER OF TIME BEFORE IT HAPPENS
Slight thread drift here but, realistically how long is it going to take before citizens DO start shooting back?

I am thinking back to the over the top response of the LAPD to the Cinco De Mayo protests ( I think) last year, when those cops came through that park dressed (except for color) and equiped almost exactly like the military. I remember wondering what would happen if someone in that crowd started shooting back.
 
I'm thinking back to that hacker kid, that spoofed a 911 call and caused a SWAT response. He got charged with loads of stuff, based on the theory that SWAT was acting as his unwitting agents.

Couldn't the argument be made here, that the homeowner was the unwitting agent of whoever twisted the facts to cause that warrant to be issued in the first place? Isn't THAT the person who needs to hang for this one?
 
I'm thinking back to that hacker kid, that spoofed a 911 call and caused a SWAT response. He got charged with loads of stuff, based on the theory that SWAT was acting as his unwitting agents.

Couldn't the argument be made here, that the homeowner was the unwitting agent of whoever twisted the facts to cause that warrant to be issued in the first place? Isn't THAT the person who needs to hang for this one?

I agree to a certain extent, but the LEOs have a responsibility to do it the right way. If they do have information then they need to verify that it is realistic. A good old fashioned police stake out, would have likely told the truth and an officer would likely still have his life!
 
Anyone who thinks a Japanese maple looks like marijuana is in serious need of either a copy of High Times or a botany class. Possibly both. That's just dumb. The leaves have some common structural elements. That is *all* they have in common.

Of course, I skipped the last page of this thread, so maybe someone has already pointed this out.
 
some folks appear to find reading the various articles very difficult. amusing that. but it does make the fantasies more vibrant

just for starters no one had been in his house. someone was in his garage and took nothin. as someone else mentioned there will be more revealed i strongly suspect.

and as to the prosecutor being buddies with the cops? a fine fantasy! were the reallity not so different. they brought in a prosecutor from 60 miles away. now the bad news is ebert is a very serious prosecutor
 
Just a question:
Why not serve a search warrant on the guy while he was at work or something like that?

My uncle was an LEO for twenty years and he said the last thing one wants is to have to deal with someone on their familiar, home turf. Better to wait until they walk out of the grocery store with their arms full. Some new info may come to light but, right now, this just feels a bit "off" to me. Something's not right.
 
He really should have waited to identify his target. You know, that way he could see they were cops and hold his fire. Of course at the first sight of his gun they'd have shot him dead...
 
How would he identify them? I have thought about this since I am a little near sighted. I would have no problem seeing and hitting a man at night, but unless the POLICE patch is pretty big or they are in full uniform, I am not sure I could "identify" the intruder as an officer.

This compounded by the fact that these raids are sometimes done by plain clothes officers. That disastrous raid in Atlanta was done by officers in plain clothes.

In addition, I don't see myself shooting through doors, but I realize my front door is only about 15 feet from my bedroom door. That is not a lot of room if you wait for them to come through the door. The idea of shooting through the door would be there.

Thankfully though, I am a law abiding citizen who has never even tried weed, much less has any. The cops would never come after me. :)
 
It looks like there's plenty of blame to go around but the only one paying any price for it is the one who had is domecile violated by law enforcement.

You're forgetting the guy who got smoked, and any family he may have had.
 
Defendant was a avid gardener, with items, as described, by informant, for such purposes, but NO pot growing found.. just a Japanese plant/s that have similar leaves to Pot plants, that would support illegal intruder, PD's informant, to assume it was Pot,

In today's environment maybe it's not wise to dabble in plants that look sorta kinda look like marijuana, no matter how innocent the intent. Unintended Consequences.

While he may be right or wrong in the shooting, he did have paraphenalia and weed in his possession.

Many have the paraphernalia for indoor growing, but most do not grow plants that are, or sorta look like, marijuana. Unintended Consequences.

Having weed in your possession at any time is just asking for it. It's not legal without some kind of legal medical exemption. He made an unwise choice in his hobby and in his lifestyle, and a number of lives were ruined as a result. The Unintended Consequences of doing what feels good without much regard for the risks and penalties. Pretty much describes the whole doper world, "recreational" and professional.

There is a pretty extreme difference between a little marijuana for smoking and a full blown drug operation.

Maybe, just maybe, none of this would have happened if there was no marijuana or anything that looked like marijuana involved. Unintended Consequences. "A little marijuana for smoking" is kinda like "a little pregnant", not exactly a trivial matter when you consider all the possible consequences and penalties.

Man,
This just scares the crap out of me.
OK. I'm sure not planting any tomatoes this year.

Plant anything you want. However, if it looks sorta kinda looks like marijuana ............ beware of Unintended Consequences. I've never heard of anyone's vegetable garden coming under LEO scrutiny unless there were plants that sorta kinda looked like marijuana or poppies. Never heard of tomatoes and roses being pulled out and burned by LEO's, nor cucumbers, corn, lettuce, beans, and carrots.

Well then if the guy in question HAD been publicly witnessed rolling up the leaves from a japanese maple and smokin them, or had he been known for sellin the stuff/passing it off as pot, or some other action then I might buy the need for a regular search warrent. BUT he was not. Based on the information released, we see that someone broke into his home and saw a few plants that they thought were pot, and then told the police about it to get out from under something else.

The Unintended Consequences of dabbling in home growing something that sorta kinda looks like marijuana. Maybe something else would have been a better choice to grow, or maybe growing his stuff in a more conventional manner inside his residence would have been a better choice. Whatever the guy was actually doing, or intending to do, he inadvertently exposed himself to unwanted attention by choosing to do something that looked questionable to others. He set himself up.

I am amazed that a "small amount of marijuana" is always found after a violent raid on a suspected big time dope dealer/grower

Yes, amazing how often that happens. I guess you've never watched "Cops" on TV. You know, where they're constantly pulling weed and pills and powder out of the pockets of folks they just had to chase down. You know, where they're constantly finding that stuff all over dope houses they raid, and in cars they have to chase down. And all on camera as you watch.

Bottom line here is that the choices you make in behavior and lifestyle can have Unintended Consequences if you choose poorly.

On my block there's only one house that has come to the attention of the police. My new neighbors are young party animals who frequently have a lot of other young party animals over. There's beer bottles and cans thrown all over, loud screaming and yelling into the wee hours, dangerous activities with motor vehicles, etc, etc. The rest of us on the block lead much more sedate and reasonable lives, so we don't get visited by the cops. I wouldn't be surprised in the slightest if some drunken, doped up party over there turns into a shooting or a brawl in the street. There have been drunken scream fests in the front yard a number of times but no one has been killed or maimed so far. Their chosen lifestyle and behavior sets them all up for tragic consequences, Unintended Consequences. The rest of us very, very little to worry about from the cops.

They way you think and behave matters. What you believe in and what your values are matters. If you're inclined to engage in Extreme Living, be prepared for the Unintended Consequences of your choices and actions.
 
Today's LEO's seem to forget that they too are ordinary citizens that need to follow the law, no matter how silly, unfortunately, we live in this brave new world where Homeland Security has twisted their minds and provided them with the means and attitude that they are all paramilitary forces.

True to a degree, and all too often. I've lived long enough to have accumulated some stories about this, but won't drag them out here. There definitely needs to be more attention on the constitutionality of police operations. All too often, department policy and custom evolves into "the law" as it is actually practiced on the street. Not good, for all involved.

Its just the gradual militarization of the police brought to you by the war on some drugs , the war on terror, and the fun of playing Ninja soldier with cool toys bought by federal grants.

You see most police departments dont need a swat team but maybe once in 10 years or so. But they spend lots of money on the training and equipment.

The bean counters ask how often to you really need SWAT? The answer everyday so we can serve ordinary warrants. Thats how you keep the funding and all the cool toys...

Besides many of our fellow Americans love living in a police state:
Here is a train ninja at my local train station, and the SS asking for a passengers papers:

I remember a time when there weren't cops and security guards in schools and malls, because they weren't needed. I remember a time when foreign terrorists weren't blowing up our buildings and people, or planes, or trains, or anything else. I remember when an event like Charles Whitman climbing up in a tower and sniping dozens of people was an astounding, incredible event that tied up TV for days on end.

Today, it's just another school massacre, just another mall massacre, just another church massacre, just another post office massacre, just another loony spraying bullets around his neighborhood. Ho hum, business as usual. Who's going to deal with all that? You?

Then there's the thousands of suicide bombers and commandos from sand land, and their activities aren't confined to sand land. They're all over the world blowing up folks who are only guilty of being Different From Them, guilty of Being Infidel On A Sunny Day. Who's going to deal with them? You?

In this country we've escaped the worst of it so far, only had several thousand murdered by terrorists, only lost a few billion dollars worth of property. Why do you think that is? Maybe, just maybe, it's because there's a lot of people with uniforms and badges eyeballing folks and occasionally checking out suspicious packages and behavior.

I agree it is ashamed the policeman got killed, but using no-knock tactics on a 100 pound guy with no criminal record seems excessive and shows a serious lack of judgement on their part.

Probably. Most likely a serious lack of judgment on their part.

This appears to be a case where the thrill of humiliating another human being got the best of law enforcement.

Bull****.

I think SWAT teams should be completely disbanded. They are of no value in a free society.

Man oh man. How to even begin ......

cut & paste

I remember a time when there weren't cops and security guards in schools and malls, because they weren't needed. I remember a time when foreign terrorists weren't blowing up our buildings and people, or planes, or trains, or anything else. I remember when an event like Charles Whitman climbing up in a tower and sniping dozens of people was an astounding, incredible event that tied up TV for days on end.

Today, it's just another school massacre, just another mall massacre, just another church massacre, just another post office massacre, just another loony spraying bullets around his neighborhood. Ho hum, business as usual. Who's going to deal with all that? You?

Then there's the thousands of suicide bombers and commandos from sand land, and their activities aren't confined to sand land. They're all over the world blowing up folks who are only guilty of being Different From Them, guilty of Being Infidel On A Sunny Day. Who's going to deal with them? You?

In this country we've escaped the worst of it so far, only had several thousand murdered by terrorists, only lost a few billion dollars worth of property. Why do you think that is? Maybe, just maybe, it's because there's a lot of people with uniforms and badges eyeballing folks and occasionally checking out suspicious packages and behavior.


:rolleyes:
 
I can't knock the guy. Under the same set of circumstances I might have made the same mistake. Very, very few criminals and even fewer non-criminals want to shoot it out with the police. Once he realized that they were the police he surrendered.

You can debate forever if the raid was a good idea (I am inclined to believe it was not) and you can debate forever if he is getting fair treatment from the DA (It sure does not seem that way) but the shoot itself? I would say it was fairly reasonable. Remeber the guy was smaller than most females (under 100 pounds) and if the cop was anything other than tiny he was probably thinking that he had no chance if he made it through the door.
 
Politicos are learning they can steamroll over the Bill of Rights as long as people are allowed to keep their guns.
 
"Never heard of tomatoes and roses being pulled out and burned by LEO's"

A buddy had his apartment searched by the city police 30 years ago because he had tomatoes growing in containers on the fire escape.

Luckily, one of the officers assigned to the search had grown up on a farm.

John
 
In today's environment maybe it's not wise to dabble in plants that look sorta kinda look like marijuana, no matter how innocent the intent. Unintended Consequences.

Please note, a japanese maple resembles marijuana in the same way Janet Reno resembles Scarlett Johannson.

I have to wonder what country I'm living in, when people need to be concerned that the state security apperatus will come kick down their door to make sure they're not up to something. It sounds more like Romania under Ceauşescu than the USA.
 
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