Steel ammo (Wolf) for my DPMS?

[christcorp]

1stmarine: You buying from a local distributor, locally, or from friends is NOT LAME. You trying to tell people to buy American made brass ammo, because you can get it for $240 for 1000 rounds ON THE INTERNET, and when I ask for a link to "Such a place", you say you don't know of any links because you don't buy online...... THAT IS LAME. In other words, if you're going to recommend that someone buy something for a particular price online, at least know of a place online that sells it for that. I.e. You said $240 for 1000 rounds online. Again; I ask you; WHERE ONLINE can I buy 1000 rounds of American made brass ammo for $240 for 1000. You're the one making the claim, not me.

Heretic: Yea, you're gonna pay a little more for American made ammo. By doing so, you help an American keep his job. You get higher quality,more accurate stuff.
I guess if you don't care much about America, and are just interested in blasting........

What a crock Tell you want. When you get rid of ALL the items in your house that ISN'T made in America; including the computer you're typing on; then you can give your holier than thou patriotic attitude. And I believe that my retired status after 21 years in the military ALLOWS me to reply accordingly to you questioning patriotism.

On the other topic: There isn't a damn thing wrong with having a 1:9 twist barrel, unless you're shooting ammo that is heavier than 70 grains. And then it's a hit/miss. Saying a 1:9 isn't good for anything over 50-55 grain ammo is ignorant. Plus it's wrong.

 

[FlyinBryan]

1/9 has never been a good thing unless you are trying to shoot very light and short bullets. As in sub 50 grain. 1/9 twist barrels preclude you from using some of the better hunting and HD ammo on the maket such as 75 grain Honrady TAP.

lets not get crazy about the 1 in 9 thing. they will shoot bullets much bigger than the sub 50's, and do it very well.

i have more than one 1/9 16" barrel that regularly hides 5 rounds of handloaded barnes 70 grain triple shock X bullets under a quarter @100yds, and its a devastating hunting round (and they are pretty long, being totally lead free and all)

thats usually what it takes from our ar15's to make me happy. it aint match grade accuracy, but for a >7lb carbine its not bad.

ended up finding the sweet spot with less, considerably less than max loads to counter the decreased available total case capacity resulting from the long bullets being seated deeper (suggested 0.050 from seated on the lands)

wound up with the following.

5.56 lake city mil-surp brass swaged and trimmed to 1.755"
70gr barnes triple shock X bullet
24.2 grains hodgdon varget
cci #400 small rifle primers seated 6 thousandths below
c.o.l. surprisingly only 2.250

upon finding this load the results became pleasantly consistent.....sub m.o.a. (0.750ish) at a nice +2900fps (chronographed with an alpha master shooting chrony)

for the o.p., im gonna have to agree with 1st marine on several levels.

the first is LEARN TO RELOAD.
if you learn and begin,,, you will very shortly be shooting ammunition superior in performance to anything you can buy, and at half or less the cost of the finest premium ammunition you can find.

his numbers are not unrealistic, and can easily even be improved upon with very little searching (demilled milsurp bullets can be had rediculously on the cheep)

it has other advantages, like its fun as hell.

the initial equipment costs can be kept very reasonable,,,like i bet i could make a list of reloading tools, like presses, dies, trimmers, tumblers, scales, etc,,,, everything you need, really cheap, like i bet less than 2 bills. (made a list for my nephew and if i remember correctly it was in the 160ish range)

i buy 90% of my reloading components from a small mom and pop shop in mesquite tx. great little outfit with a very nice inventory.

 

[M1key]

Yeah, I like 1:9 just fine thank you.

M

 

[1stmarine]

Sometimes this forum serves to, in anonymity, demonstrate the inadequacies and frustrations of some people's lives.
For others it serves an useful purpose.

 

[notasfancy]

Christcorp,
1stmarine said $240 to $290 range so maybe take your personal frustrations somewhere else.

1stmarine,
Since February I have not seen any of the better deals in the 250 dollars range. Do you have the phone number of that distribution center you just mentioned? Do you know if they ship and also have discount for military?
I think I can put a big order with a couple of my buddies we just returned from Afganistan.
Thank you.

 

[1stmarine]

Sure,
They do have discount for Military and LE. I will also call them if you want. We buy over 100K every year for the club.
send me an IM.

 

[christcorp]

There's no frustration here. I know that there isn't any American made, Brass, .223/5.56 ammo on the internet for $240 for 1000 rounds. Or $250. Matter of fact, I don't think there's any American brass .223/5.56 ammo under $300 for 1000 rounds. And that's pushing it. I just wanted 1stmarine to know there wasn't any. Especially now that he admits that he doesn't shop on the internet. No problem here.

There were some military surplus ammo in the sub-$300 per 1000 range, but it wasn't American made, and it's not really available. Most of it was turkish. But that would go against the concept being touted to buy American and create jobs.

 

[Usagi]

On the other topic: There isn't a damn thing wrong with having a 1:9 twist barrel, unless you're shooting ammo that is heavier than 70 grains. And then it's a hit/miss. Saying a 1:9 isn't good for anything over 50-55 grain ammo is ignorant. Plus it's wrong.

lets not get crazy about the 1 in 9 thing. they will shoot bullets much bigger than the sub 50's, and do it very well.

Quoted both of these for truth.

I regularly shoot 75-grain from my 1:9 twist barrel and have never had accuracy problems, keyholing, or other issues. In fact, my AR15 seems to prefer the heavier stuff (over 60 grains), though it shoots the 55-gr ammo fine.

The real problem when occasional keyholing happens is not solely based on a 1:9 twist. In every instance of keyholing I've read up on, the barrel was only 14.5" long. Now, mind you, there's nothing inherently wrong with the carbine - but the 1:7 twist was designed to shoot the longer bullets out of the shorter barrel and still stabilize them.

I have witnessed keyholed shots from a 14.5" barrel, using 55 grain ammo (loaded hot). The same ammo from my 20" rifle did not keyhole.

In full 16" barrels, and certainly in the longer 20" and up barrels, the bullet has more time in the barrel to stabilize, and the results have been proven time and again. Folks more knowledgeable than me have calculated that the ideal twist (from a 20" barrel) for 55-gr ammo is 1:12 or thereabouts, and the ideal twist for 62-gr is about 1:10. That means the 1:9 is perfectly fine for both.

Don't believe me? Why do most bolt-action .223 rifles have a 1:10 or 1:9 twist? And they stabilize heavy and longer bullets just fine. BTW - most of them have barrels 22" - 24" in length.

 

[kwelz]

lets not get crazy about the 1 in 9 thing. they will shoot bullets much bigger than the sub 50's, and do it very well.

I understand that. I probably should have been more clear. The range on a 1/9 barrel is much less useful given the current generation of bullets available. With the exception of those varmint rounds I mentioned most useful rounds are heavier. I have tried 75 grain bullets out of a number of 1/9 twist barrels. None have ever performed well.

 

[christcorp]

Lets be honest here. The AR15, along with the AK47, was designed to SHOOT PEOPLE, and to do it at SHORT RANGES!!! It is not a 300+ yard sniper rifle. Do some people try and make it a sniper rifle? Yes. Do some spend thousands of dollars to make it a marksman rifle shooting competition at 300+ yards? Yes. But was the rifle designed for that? No. It was designed to use open sights, killing people, at 100+/- yards. And at those distances, it doesn't matter if your 1:9 twist barrel is shooting 75-80 grain bullets. You're still going to hit your target. It's not like the rifle is a piece of electronics that automatically turns off because you put the wrong ammo in it. It's not going to blow up. It's not going to be a problem. And even if it did keyhole, that's excellent for what the rifle was designed for. It makes a larger entrance wound hole.

The only people who have issues or concerns with the rifle twist of an AR is:
1. Those who use the rifle as a "SPORT" and not what it was designed for, and is striving for maximum accuracy.
2. Those who think a rifle has to be 100% mil-spec, or it's totally unreliable and isn't trustworthy for protecting your life or your family's. (FYI: The reason for 1:7 mil-spec, is because that rifle shoot 5.56 NATO, "Not .223", and that rifle might need to shoot ammo from any of the ally countries like greece, turkey, spain, denmark, etc... It could be ammo that is 55 grain or 75 grain.

But in the civilian world, which is where we live, most of us if we BUY ammo, is going to buy 55-62 grain ammo. That's what is normally available. Can you shoot 75grain ammo in a 1:9 rifle. Yes, you can. And at the distances the rifle was designed for, it will work perfectly fine. It was designed for people to compare 1MOA shots at 100 yards. It was designed for hitting center of mass of a human being, with either the target or the shooter, OR BOTH, not stationary. So with open sites, in any possible shooting position, with iron sites or non-magnified red-dot sights, at 100 yards, you can take ANY rifle twist, with ANY weight ammo, and you should be able to shoot the COM of a human size target. if you can't, then either you suck as a shooter, or your rifle has problems. But if you want to use your AR as a long range target rifle for competition or varmints, then that's a totally different concept.

I only bring this up, because there are a lot of people out there that think if they shoot a 70+ grain bullet in a 1:9 barrel, that some sort of damage will happen. NOPE: Nothing negative can happen to your rifle. And if you're using the rifle for 100+/- yard target practice and home defense, then shoot whatever ammo you can get at the best price that lets you shoot more of it. You'll still hit your target, AS INTENDED.

 

[Heretic]

I don't buy stuff made in china, if I can help it. As a matter of fact, I didn't buy the computer I'm typing on, I picked it up off the side of the road on cleanup day and re-built it with parts salvaged from other computers that I picked up. So far I have re-built 26 computers that I give to families who don't have them. Children need a computer to keep up in school these days.

 

[christcorp]

That's good. But I'll bet you that the hard drive, ram, CD/DVD, MB, etc... isn't made in the USA. And don't get me wrong, I don't think there's anything wrong with that. If we had some motivated people, they too could probably build a decent American made computer. I think Texas Instruments was one of the last ones. But in today's world, most companies need financial capital to stay in business. Most do this in the form of stocks. Most people have some form of IRA, 401k, mutual fund, etc... that they are investing in. And considering that most funds are made up of possibly hundreds of stocks, there's a real good chance that you are investing in quite a few overseas companies whether you know it or not. In other words, you make money from the overseas companies.

The closest thing to a real American TV you can buy, is a Vizio. It's an American company, with TV's assembled and serviced by Americans in California. However; the company isn't stupid. They know that Americans are hypocrites. They say they want to "Buy American", but they don't want to pay the Union Wages for an American product. They want the price available from Overseas manufacturers. At lease Vizio and to a large extent Toyota, hires Americans for assembly, sales, service, etc... But many of the parts, especially electronics, is going to come from Asia. Including China. But that's the compromise. You aren't going to have a 100% American company, except for niche market products. "Guns happen to be a niche market and you can buy a 100% American made gun. We don't mind spending $1000 for an AR15. But for normal consumer products, you can't have a 100% American made product. Not for mass consumption. Americans won't pay the price for the Union labor.

 

[Heretic]

I agree, it's hard to find stuff made in America, but when I do, I buy it. Ammo is one of the things that can be found, so I buy it. I really wish more electronics were made here. By recycling, I can help prevent more stuff from china from being sold.

I guess my point is, I will gladly pay twice as much for made in USA.

 

[Aiko492]

I also bought the DPMS Panther Lite (my first rifle) a few days ago. For what it is worth, the owners manual says shooting reloads and foreign ammo voids your warranty. It goes on to say they have had problems with some foreign ammo.

On another note, sighted it in last night with some help with MI flip rears and an itac scope. < than 1" groups @ 40 yards. Only criticism is the mags that come with the gun are junk. Bought a few MagPul. Now trying to figure out slings.

 

[tyeo098]

My ar-15 (delton) hates steel anything.
My bud's Ar-15 eats anything that goes in it.

Weird huh?

 

[Heretic]

Mine eat it just fine, it's the lack of accuracy that bugs me. It's embarrasing being at the range and leaving a group more appropriate to a shotgun. The people watching assume it's the gun, or me. I do shoot for tight groups. I compete with myself for the tightest groups I can print.
P.S. can't stand the smell of that russian powder either.

 

[christcorp]

We all have our different uses for our weapons. For instance, i NEVER use a vise, bench rest, etc... to shoot a rifle. Why? Because in the "Real World"; self defense, hunting, shooting varmints, etc... I won't have one of those available to me to shoot my target. I also won't spend more than 5 seconds aiming and pulling the trigger. (That's pushing it). why? Because in the real world of self defense and hunting, you don't have that type of time. I spend a lot of time with initial sighting in of sights or scopes, but that's it.

I "Practice" shooting my AR for defensive purposes at 50 yards. I practice holding my rifle in many different positions. I practice aiming my rifle, acquiring target, and shooting 3 times, in preferably no more than 3 seconds. Past that..... I'm dead. I practice with paper plates as targets. That's the approximate size of a Center of mass human target. If I hit the paper plate, I did good.

I "Plink" shooting my AR at 100 yards to simulate prairie dogs, gophers, coyotes, etc... I practice with paper plates or similar size targets. I will lean across a table, tree, lay prone, etc... But i don't use any artificial accessories. I have a few more seconds to take this shot, but I don't go more than 5 seconds total.

Now, for me, shooting a 1 inch group at 100 yards, with 30 rounds, mean absolutely to me. I find that a capability of the weapon that isn't necessary. Like a car/truck that can fit 8 passengers, mean nothing to me if it's only me and my wife and I want the vehicle to take trash to the city dump. But there are some people that want to use their AR as a target gun. That's cool. They can go for those 1" groups at 100 yards or at 600 yards. That's their business, not mine. If I want to shoot 300-600 yards, it's because I'm shooting an Antelope. That's why god invented the 7mm remington magnum.

So for many of us, shooting a 4"x4" square, all 30 rounds, at 100 yards, with iron sights or non-magnification red-dots, it plenty good. Thus; much of the russian ammo is more than perfect for our use. i have a friend that loves shooting his Bushwacker. He has his vise and bench rest and reloads his "Special Recipe". I've noticed that he NEVER shoots the gun in a tactical position or manner. I made him shoot a 30 yard target standing up off-hand and also kneeling. When I Said: "NOW". He had 2 seconds to aim and pull the trigger. Out of a 30 round magazine, he hit the paper plate (8 inches), 6 times. I told him to not even consider using his AR for home defense. Let him use a bench rest and vise, and give him 20-30 seconds to take a shot, and he'll hit a paper cup 30 for 30 at 300 yards.

So, whether a person uses russian ammo depends on what they want to use it for. I want it to go INSIDE of FLESH and kill what i aim at. And thus for practice, I want the ammo to do the same thing. Up to around 100 yards. Russian is excellent at this capability.

 

[Heretic]

I will shoot off a bi-pod, I will also shoot off hand. I can keep my time at 10 shots per minute.( I believe thats standard) I don't even own a vice (vise). Shot up the last of my cheap russian yesterday.(200 rnds) Kept a steady 9 moa at 100 yrds.with pod or not. switched to federal SP and printed 2 moa. Not harping on the issue, just sharing the facts.

Oh, The soldiers manual of common tasks (FM21-2 may 1983) says battlesight zero on the M-16 is 250 meters.
My math says 22.5 inch pattern at 250 meters. OK maybe I'm harping a little.

 

[Kwanger]

I will shoot off a bi-pod, I will also shoot off hand. I can keep my time at 10 shots per minute.( I believe thats standard) I don't even own a vice (vise). Shot up the last of my cheap russian yesterday.(200 rnds) Kept a steady 9 moa at 100 yrds.with pod or not. switched to federal SP and printed 2 moa. Not harping on the issue, just sharing the facts.

Oh, The soldiers manual of common tasks (FM21-2 may 1983) says battlesight zero on the M-16 is 250 meters.
My math says 22.5 inch pattern at 250 meters. OK maybe I'm harping a little.

Which brand of Russian were you using? That's terrible, and is more likely a bad lot than anything else - I have never, in around 20,000 rounds of steel case Russian ammo, had anywhere near that bad. Try some WPA or Brown Bear. 3 MOA is more typical.

 

[1stmarine]

The main problem with the russian value pack steel ammo is lack of consistency. It is affordable and ok and it can be used for many things but for serious work their spreads are too far apart.

 

[Heretic]

I bought 1000 rnds of white box tula, about 8 months ago. Thought I shot the last of it yesterday, but found one more box in my ammo can.

WPA, thats wolf, right?

 

[christcorp]

I have some MFS soft point for coyote and prairie dog. It is very accurate. I use the tula, bear, wolf, and herters for practice. Practice for familiarity and for self defense. I consider that "Serious" work. I consider hitting a 4"x4" target with open sights at 100 yards to be plenty accurate enough for simulating COM. Now if someone is shooting for FUN; e.g. competition, marksmanship, 600 yard shots, etc... I can understand wanting the most accurate possible. But for real world practice, 1moa isn't required. Russian ammo works fine for me. My M&P15 is at about 4,000 rounds since christmas, and my Siaga .223/5.56 is at about 2500 rounds in the last year and a half. The ONLY malfunctions I've had, were magazine related. "Experimenting with adapters". Russian ammo has been fantastic.

 

[1stmarine]

Yes. for practice in general is ok, plinkin, shooting in the woods where you do not want to be picking up brass all over between the leaves. I can see that.

 

[christcorp]

Actually, at the range, I really like shooting the steel case. You mention "Picking up the brass". With steel cases, I actually have a large magnet tied to a string. I can pick up almost 50 empty cases at a time without really bending over.

 

[Heretic]

I could live with 3 moa kwanger,maybe it was a bad lot.