charby
Member
damn molecular chemists... I forgot about that.
Storing gasoline for shtf.
- Thread starter odysseus
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SRYnidan
Member
Odysseu
Just a thought I have had for awhile. Get a pickup box/chassis from a junk yard with dual tanks or add them. Add a toolbox tank or in the box tank as well as a hitch. Thus not only is your fuel station not completely obvious but it also is mobile and in the event of a SHTF situation you can take it with you as well as providing additional hauling space. A further advantage is that rotation of you supply is less of a problem, once an month fuel up from one of the trailer tanks and just tow it to the station and refill.
Just a thought I have had for awhile. Get a pickup box/chassis from a junk yard with dual tanks or add them. Add a toolbox tank or in the box tank as well as a hitch. Thus not only is your fuel station not completely obvious but it also is mobile and in the event of a SHTF situation you can take it with you as well as providing additional hauling space. A further advantage is that rotation of you supply is less of a problem, once an month fuel up from one of the trailer tanks and just tow it to the station and refill.
Ravenslair
Member
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- May 9, 2005
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I am not sure if the gas would erode the rubber seals over time. If you perged and pressurized with N2, you may not have any vapors in contact with the seals. For transferring, I was thinking that you could just pop the top and siphon it into the tank through a larger line (of course, one would want to be grounded the whole time, as you guys stated). The keg was more for storage until needed.
I too brew my own beer. Where are you getting them for $5? For $10 (keg and o-ring kit), you have a "new" keg. I like the sound of that. I have been spending $20-$25 for reconditioned kegs. Sorry, I know this question is not related. PM me if you would rather take this part of my post off-line.
I too brew my own beer. Where are you getting them for $5? For $10 (keg and o-ring kit), you have a "new" keg. I like the sound of that. I have been spending $20-$25 for reconditioned kegs. Sorry, I know this question is not related. PM me if you would rather take this part of my post off-line.
"If you perged and pressurized with N2, you may not have any vapors in contact with the seals. "
No matter what else you fill the dead space in the tank with, gasoline will evorate until the volume is saturated for the temperature. The presence of another gas has no effect.
No matter what else you fill the dead space in the tank with, gasoline will evorate until the volume is saturated for the temperature. The presence of another gas has no effect.
usp_fan
Member
What about those big blue 55 gallon plastic barrels you see sold for water storage. I've seen chemicals and food syrups stored in them? I've got 4 filled with water. A friend moved and left me 4 more. Think they'd hold gas?
--usp_fan
--usp_fan
Ravenslair
Member
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- May 9, 2005
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- 65
brickeyee,
It has been more than a decade since my last chem class. Thanks for the reminder. I guess it is time to dust the text book off and go through it again.
It has been more than a decade since my last chem class. Thanks for the reminder. I guess it is time to dust the text book off and go through it again.
Preacherman
Member
Ravenslair, you'd have to watch out for the "head" on the gas, too...
countertop
Member
Historically, Diesel has always been cheaper than gas - both to operate (much much better mileage) and to purchase. It was only in the last couple of years (and especially after the sulfur standards were enacted) that its price surpassed gasoline. Here in McLean, VA it is once again much cheaper than gas - $2.35 gallon vs $3.00+
As far as Diesel vehicles - there really aren't that many on the road cause there isn't much demand. There is a slight difference in price for new vehicles - but historically, used vehicles were priced in a much more similar manner. With the current high fuel prices, that may be changing - though Bosch and Diamler Chrysler have been making real progress towards the mass introduction of new diesel motor vehicles.
Cold is a problem, but much less so for new Diesels.
Finally, remember, with Diesel its very easy to run alternative fuels - whether they be biodiesel or liquified coal or kerosene. Plus, you can make biodiesel pretty easily at home (or go to a Mickey Ds and run it off the vegetable oil).
For 33 gallon drums, call your local fuel suppliers, the wholesale or bulk suppliers. They aren't too hard to find. They are much easier to handle than the 55's. I think gas weighs about 6 lbs per gallon. You can get hand powered pumps for drums, but a hose and nozzle will fit the small bung hole and you can gravity feed from it.
Some bulk fuel suppliers will not charge you for the tank and stand if you get your fuel from them. It's pretty common for people in this area to have bulk tanks at their place, and they usually fuel up at home. The suppliers will either come on a schedule and top you off, or come fill the tank when you call.
If you are running a generator a lot, untaxed (no road tax) may be worthwhile, but if you may use it in a vehicle, best to pay the tax.
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"gas loses approximately one point of octane per month and when it gets below 80 it loses enough combustibility not to work in engines... sta-bil keeps the octane rating from dropping for like 12 months..."
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I'm curious to know where that info comes from, I think it may be in error. I have had vehicles that have sit unused for 1 1/2 to 3 years and had little trouble other than the gas drying out in the carb or FI systems. I haven't used sta-bil, but have it on my list. I did add some gas to one of them perhaps 25% to 50%, and it then set for another couple years, again with no trouble. It still starts and runs when I've tried it.
Some bulk fuel suppliers will not charge you for the tank and stand if you get your fuel from them. It's pretty common for people in this area to have bulk tanks at their place, and they usually fuel up at home. The suppliers will either come on a schedule and top you off, or come fill the tank when you call.
If you are running a generator a lot, untaxed (no road tax) may be worthwhile, but if you may use it in a vehicle, best to pay the tax.
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"gas loses approximately one point of octane per month and when it gets below 80 it loses enough combustibility not to work in engines... sta-bil keeps the octane rating from dropping for like 12 months..."
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I'm curious to know where that info comes from, I think it may be in error. I have had vehicles that have sit unused for 1 1/2 to 3 years and had little trouble other than the gas drying out in the carb or FI systems. I haven't used sta-bil, but have it on my list. I did add some gas to one of them perhaps 25% to 50%, and it then set for another couple years, again with no trouble. It still starts and runs when I've tried it.
Ravenslair
Member
- Joined
- May 9, 2005
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- 65
Preacherman wrote:
"Ravenslair, you'd have to watch out for the "head" on the gas, too..."
Quite true. It would be a real kicker
"Ravenslair, you'd have to watch out for the "head" on the gas, too..."
Quite true. It would be a real kicker
cracked butt
Member
As mentioned above, the N2 won't prevent this. There are a few other advantages to N2 pressure however.
1. it will keep moisure out.
2. N2 doesn't support combustion, adding to the safety factor.
Sometimes chemists forget about static discharge also. A guy I work with, was emptying a holding tank into a plastic drum (ungrounded), there happened to be a tiny bit of hexane floating on the top of the water. I visited him in the burn ward of the local trauma center where he called home for 2 weeks. Stuff like that sort of sticks in your mind when it happens to people who are your friends.
odysseus
Member
How best to ground a plastic drum? A little of this is unclear to me. Can I discharge the filled container first, or is it both containers that need discharging or strapping to prevent spark?
cracked butt
Member
With a plastic gas can, there isn't much danger if the can is on the ground and the electrical charges disperse, the nozzle at a service station is grounded/bonded to the tank. Also with small plastic gas cans, the gasoline doesn't fall far through the air lessening the danger of static discharge. Even small plastic containers can be dangerous though if they aren't set on the ground, as in filling them up in the bed of a truck, especially if the truck has a bed liner.
There are ways to ground a plastic drum, such as putting a stainless rod all the way to the bottom of the drum and bonding it to the tank you are charging from or grounding it, even then, there are no guarantees. I would at a minimum, flush the drum with N2 for an hour before putting gasoline in it. It would probably be best to stay away from big plastic containers altogether, flammable solvents are as dangerous as a rattle snake when transferring them, its best not to tempt it to strike.
Some of the components of gasoline, especially n-hexanes, pentane, and heptane are particularly nasty. I've witnessed n-hexanes sparking inside of inert environments such as within plastic tubing and inside glass lined reactors- the latter looking a bit like lightning
edit to clarify: You want both containers grounded, and if possible, bonded to eachother with a conducting material or wire. You want as little electical potential between your two containers as possible.
There are ways to ground a plastic drum, such as putting a stainless rod all the way to the bottom of the drum and bonding it to the tank you are charging from or grounding it, even then, there are no guarantees. I would at a minimum, flush the drum with N2 for an hour before putting gasoline in it. It would probably be best to stay away from big plastic containers altogether, flammable solvents are as dangerous as a rattle snake when transferring them, its best not to tempt it to strike.
Some of the components of gasoline, especially n-hexanes, pentane, and heptane are particularly nasty. I've witnessed n-hexanes sparking inside of inert environments such as within plastic tubing and inside glass lined reactors- the latter looking a bit like lightning
edit to clarify: You want both containers grounded, and if possible, bonded to eachother with a conducting material or wire. You want as little electical potential between your two containers as possible.
45crittergitter
Member
Gasoline, even with Sta-Bil or the like, goes stale in a matter of months at best. Whether it's still useable is highly dependent on your fuel system. Racing or aviation gas on the other hand apparently never goes bad, but costs several times what pump gas costs (and probably is illegal for on-road use). Diesel apparently never gets stale, but it can grow a biological slime, preventable with a fuel biocide. FWIW, the IRS has waived the fuel tax penalty for using red-dyed fuel on the road from August 31 (Aug 30 in AL, LA, & MS) to September 15, 2005, due to Katrina.
All you ever wanted to know about gasoline:
http://www.faqs.org/faqs/autos/gasoline-faq/part1/
And all you ever wanted to know about gas cans:
http://www.rocketcityrockcrawlers.com/memberstuff/al/Jerry Can Paper V1.3.pdf
http://www.faqs.org/faqs/autos/gasoline-faq/part1/
And all you ever wanted to know about gas cans:
http://www.rocketcityrockcrawlers.com/memberstuff/al/Jerry Can Paper V1.3.pdf
Just buy them a pint of Guinness and they will be the most personable of fellows.
You can buy racing gas for on street use. People who like to drive their hot rods around have to do it. There is usually a station somewhere in just about every town that can provide it. Im sure that there is a brisk trade in fleecing ricers who think that it will make their mom's Honda faster, so it might be pricey. The best idea is to find someone with a trans-am, he will almost certainly know where a source is.
45crittergitter
Member
Yeah, but not red diesel, at least right now.
http://www.irs.gov/newsroom/article/0,,id=147221,00.html
http://www.irs.gov/newsroom/article/0,,id=147221,00.html
I have lost all confidence in plastic gasoline containers because of my dirt bike riding days. I had several bikes that would not start on the gas in the (plastic) tank after only a week of sitting. And the gas kept in a plastic lawn-and-garden gas cans was junk after a couple weeks. Note it would run just about anything else, but would not satisfy the bikes. Gas kept in metal cans lasted forever. The static issues presented in this thread make me even more a fan of steel. I also worked at a marina for several years and can testify as to the effectiveness of Sta-Bil.
NATO gas cans work well
For sale at Cheaperthandirt...
I keep one kicking around in my Jeep to have extra fuel available. The seal is airtight, so no or few fumes, and it's tough enough to stand up to my 'gentle' usage time and again.
Just wish they had stock of more 'used' ones, the 'Best' cans are basically new and $20- twice the used price.
One thing about the flexible nozzle they sell- the seal in mine was too thin to keep gas from leaking out when I tried to fill my tank. We used the seal as an outline and cut a second seal from used, cleaned bicycle innertube, then put that under the main seal. Works fine, no drips or dribbles.
For sale at Cheaperthandirt...
I keep one kicking around in my Jeep to have extra fuel available. The seal is airtight, so no or few fumes, and it's tough enough to stand up to my 'gentle' usage time and again.
Just wish they had stock of more 'used' ones, the 'Best' cans are basically new and $20- twice the used price.
One thing about the flexible nozzle they sell- the seal in mine was too thin to keep gas from leaking out when I tried to fill my tank. We used the seal as an outline and cut a second seal from used, cleaned bicycle innertube, then put that under the main seal. Works fine, no drips or dribbles.
Thin Black Line
Member
Caution
Beware of putting gasoline in plastic containers or sectioned
metal containers with rubber seals if the plastic and rubber
parts of those containers and not made for containing gasoline.
They will break down over time and leak.
Beware of putting gasoline in plastic containers or sectioned
metal containers with rubber seals if the plastic and rubber
parts of those containers and not made for containing gasoline.
They will break down over time and leak.
The_Antibubba
Member
I've been thinking this one over for a while.
One of the main reasons gasoline goes bad is the addition of all the additives and oxygenators etc etc etc; and how winter gas has a somewhat longer storage life. Stabilizers will extend that life some. But what about storage for years?
I see the Coleman fuel in the stores. Essentially it is White Gas. I've been doing a little reading, and the camping fuel has some rust inhibitors added, but nothing else. It stays good for years. From what I've read, white gas is "raw" gasoline. It has an octane of 50 to 55. So, why not store a supply of White Gas, and store separately the additives necessary to bring it up to an acceptable octane? The shelves in every auto parts store have dozens of octane boosters; Ethanol and Methanol are both used as octane boosters, and could be stored for mixing later. I wouldn't want to run my car on this all the time, but, assuming you could calculate the right ratio for the mix, would this be usable for bug-out?
One of the main reasons gasoline goes bad is the addition of all the additives and oxygenators etc etc etc; and how winter gas has a somewhat longer storage life. Stabilizers will extend that life some. But what about storage for years?
I see the Coleman fuel in the stores. Essentially it is White Gas. I've been doing a little reading, and the camping fuel has some rust inhibitors added, but nothing else. It stays good for years. From what I've read, white gas is "raw" gasoline. It has an octane of 50 to 55. So, why not store a supply of White Gas, and store separately the additives necessary to bring it up to an acceptable octane? The shelves in every auto parts store have dozens of octane boosters; Ethanol and Methanol are both used as octane boosters, and could be stored for mixing later. I wouldn't want to run my car on this all the time, but, assuming you could calculate the right ratio for the mix, would this be usable for bug-out?
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chopinbloc
Member
not biodiesel. it'll cost you about $200 to buy the parts to make the processing equipment. after that you need waste oil from fast food joints, glycerine and lye. you can make biodiesel for about FIVE CENTS A GALLON. unfortunately, i can't afford to buy a diesel vehicle right now, but you can bet that will be the next vehicle i buy. you need no conversion whatsoever for most diesels to run off biodiesel. older vehicles require very minor retrofitting.
as for storage, i think the plastic NATO five gallon jerry cans are probably the safest, cheapest and most convenient way to store fuel as long as you're not planning to store a really large quantity.
edit for links:
http://www.veggiepower.org.uk/main.htm
http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make.html
there is alot more info out there if you're interested. one of the places where leftists and libertarians are likely to agree is the issue of dependance on foreign oil. damn, i wish i could buy a diesel truck right now. :banghead:
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