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Surplus rifles

Discussion in 'Rifle Country' started by Antihero, Nov 3, 2019.

  1. .455_Hunter

    .455_Hunter Member

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    My LGS charges 20% for consignment and puts the items on GunBroker. Over the past two years, he has moved over 15 firearms for me, with only one being an "old maid". No fuss, no bother, just a check when they sell.
     
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  2. indy1919a4

    indy1919a4 Member

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    You guys looking to sell guns just out of the box thoughts, Rent a table at a local gun show or List the items to sale on this forum or ones like it.
     
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2019
  3. Robbins290

    Robbins290 Member

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    thought about posting here. But do not wanna get involved in shipping.
     
  4. LoonWulf
    • Contributing Member

    LoonWulf Contributing Member

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    Ive had zero issues shipping firearms, brown box, brown wrapping, get FFL info straight from recipients dealer and done......
    I sold thousands of dollars in paintball gear, car parts, and other crap online. Ive probably sold/sent 4 or 5 rifles, and a couple handguns now... Very little extra effort involved.
     
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  5. indy1919a4

    indy1919a4 Member

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    Whats to shipping, you can go to some local gun shops and you can get the boxes and packing for free (Heck they will be glad to see you and keep their garbage level down)

    Nice youtube to show some packing tips



    From receiving several guns I would add that you place a Tennis ball on the barrel to make sure the barrel end does not poke through the box and I like the
    idea of packing the bolt separately, but if the box is opened then the bolt can be lost by falling though the hole. So secure the bolt to the rifle... (The latter experience happened to me and it was not pretty)

    Viddy well my little brother...Viddy well.
     
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  6. lionking

    lionking Member

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    Well every generation of shooters seem to go wow "I remember when I could get a M1, or Springfield or Mauser for such and such can't believe the price now" My age and generation, I started gun shows in the early 90's and onto 2010 or so remember the SKS, Mosin, Mausers, Enfields , the Greek return Garand and M1903, the MAS for $100, the Swiss rifles 1911 and K31 and so on. 10 years later it just isn't what it use to be.

    Surplus ammo for most of them has dried up also. The economical calibers to shoot these days under .50 cent a round is .223, still 7.62x39, .30 carbine and .357 mag/.38 spcl.

    But to me there are still certain surplus still worth what they cost today. I would still buy another Swedish mauser , another Mosin M39 and maybe another Enfield at today's prices because I really like military surplus, and I being a target shooter not a hunter, get pleasure out of shooting them. If I was a hunter I would be looking at commercial guns instead probably. There are guns like commercial scout rifles that probably are great for range time also.

    Don't know what geographic area might provide the next influx or surplus, I would think Africa has potential, don't know if there are any European or Baltic areas that might open up, if political condition improve with Russia maybe that would happen again.
     
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  7. theotherwaldo

    theotherwaldo Member

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    I used to work at the post office that served Fort McClellan and the Anniston Army Depot.
    We used to get shipments of guns and components that were sent in for scrapping.
    Needless to say, they weren't carefully packed. Barrels and butts sticking out of crushed boxes that were dribbling parts.
    A demonstration of how not to do it... .
     
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  8. Robbins290

    Robbins290 Member

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    Dont get me wrong. I have shipped a few rifles and have the shipping cardboard for them. I ordered a bundle when i was moving. I jist dont like the hassle
     
  9. fpgt72

    fpgt72 member

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    The Forgotten weapons guy did a video a while ago where he got a few items from Rock Island and did an "unboxing" video on them.....talk about how to ship a gun.

    I have gotten a few things from them and have been more then happy on how they ship. Bolt guns ship with the bolts out and a tag that says this bolt goes with lot 123....then the gun itself has a tag lot 123, so you can match up easy....comes in handy if you buy several of the same type of gun. Scopes are also shipped apart from the gun and have the ever living crap bubble packed and taped out of them. Everything is double boxed and double taped.

    I usually just buy long guns but have gotten some wheel guns from them....I know they come in bubble pack again, and want to say the holster if applicable is packed in a different bubble pack cocoon.

    I thought about posting up my video but he did it so much better then I did, so why bother.
     
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  10. indy1919a4

    indy1919a4 Member

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    Now that is a bit of a tease , :) you got me hot and bothers for an unpacking video and no link... I would not mind seeing the link.. por favor

    I will second double boxing, if you can double box heavy items you are gold in the shipping world. Also boxing with in the box...
     
  11. fpgt72

    fpgt72 member

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    You brought up some good points.....on the garand as soon as the prices get to a point, and the company thinks there is a market for it (like the M14) someone will make a real easy and cheap to make version of it like springfield does....casting is the cheap way to go....I am not sure the market is there to support a garand line.

    The other good point is the "hunter" or basement gunsmiths, I do not care what anyone says you have better luck getting an accurate rifle buying that inexpensive Mosberg or Savage, over even at $89 way back when and trying to make that into a silk purse....I never got that. The "cheap" sporting rifles today are just so darn good I never could see the point. Now in 1950 that is something different, but today....the money and time you put into a WELL DONE AND ACCURATE sporter of a milsurp is going to be more then making that savage Axis, or mossberg patriot....and you get factory backing.

    Now we get to the point I danced around......really it does not matter what is "better" or not....it is really what is hot. If hollyweard came out with a new super popular action movie and the star was using a hipoint.....boy oh boy you can bet the sales of those would go through the roof.

    When you get old enough the guns do tend to stand on their own....to a point. Things like Trapdoors will always be more popular in the US over things like a Martini henry.....it is home grown, and ammo is still easy to come by...the Zulu movie (great movie by the way) did drive some sales back in the day, but it really did not have lasting power.....so if shopping for something like a Martini you will see prices really don't move much but for inflation, and the "odd" special flavors, or very nice examples will keep and have jumped, but "shooter" type guns....well they are what they are, and I really don't think another pop culture happening will drive prices....they may spike like the WWI stuff did, but not really keep pushing them.....WWI stuff did spike.

    We saw a bump in WWII stuff after band of brothers and pacific came out.....American stuff, because most of us are 'mericans after all is always popular.....but I think the pop culture price pushes are really a flash in the pan....I don't think they keep the market going.

    Walking dead is said to push snake gun prices.....I really don't think so, snake guns have always been expensive....even in the day it was an upper model....people know what they are, and the quality that went into them, this is what keeps moving the prices on things like this.

    Lastly.....I know, and have said in other "collector" type threads that as the generations change what was once hot becomes not so hot.....will that happen to the WWII surplus market....as we 50-ish year olds pass on in a few years, are our kids going to keep and treasure our collections, or is it off to the nearest cabelas to sell the lot for pennies on the dollar just so they can have cash for what interests them.....who knows, and really I don't care....I will be dead...but hope he is smarter then this.
     
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  12. GAF

    GAF Member

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    The last time I bought an surplus guns was around 2007. I orders a pair of Mosin Nagant carbines at $65 each.
    The prices just keep reaching for the sky as they always do.
     
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  13. Robbins290

    Robbins290 Member

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    GAf, i did the same thing. Bought 5 for $59 each. sold the mall but one a few years later when people needed hunting rifles.

    EDIT, mine were not carbines, they were the 91/30's
     
  14. Corpral_Agarn

    Corpral_Agarn Member

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    This is a cool thread.

    Reminds me I need to find a nice Krag.

    Its probably the last "surplus" i want.

    M1A can be had new as well as FAL.
     
  15. fpgt72

    fpgt72 member

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    And drifting back to the OP for a sec...

    Now that prices are starting to near that $1000 mark, you need to know what you are looking at, know what you are buying....and be a bit smart. As these items start to go up in price you will see things start to get "faked"....now buying a "fake" is different from a reproduction....I have a repro "sniper" 91/30, and I bought it as such...and if I ever sell it it would be sold as such. That is cool....but trying to take advantage is not cool...and as stuff gets more expensive, and with soviet records being like they are....things can get very gray....SA marks are something that already are being put on things that never seen finland.
     
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  16. theotherwaldo

    theotherwaldo Member

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    I'm about to get to clean up a '98 Krag that's in a WWI display in our little museum. Supposedly it had been issued to a member of a train crew that ran ammo and supplies to the Front in France.
    I'll temporarily replace it with one of my '03 Springfields, which will look OK even though it was manufactured in 1943.
    It shouldn't take to long to clean it up.
     
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  17. boom boom
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    boom boom Moderator Staff Member

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    There are quite a few sporterized Krags out there looking for a home for a reasonable price with cut stocks, d&Ted, and cut barrels. Some will actually have retrofitted Springfield 03 barrels as those were dirt cheap interwar and handier than the old musket length barrels that were the most common Krags. It has been said and I agree that the Krag is one of the most smooth actions that you will ever work and can have excellent accuracy and putdown power using cast rn220gr bullet at decent hunting distances. But, the triggers are somewhat mediocre and not easily improved but Huber concepts makes an improved trigger. They are not easy to scope properly either. New Criterion replacement barrels of good quality are available for them in carbine and long rifle length but if I remember correctly, these are not properly tapped for the obsolete fine thread of Krag sights so you have to use aftermarket screws to attach them if you want Krag iron sights.

    Speaking of sights, the Krag has some of the most variation of any U.S. military rifles on iron sight models so you have your choice between open sights (94, 96, 98), Buffington sights with windage adjustments (1901), an open sight like the 98 with a peep sight foldable leaf (1902), etc. There are carbine and long rifle versions. Avoid the 94 sights as these was an Army messup on zeroing the original models. You will see these on some mixmaster Krags because the Army took them off of issued rifles and sold the sights as surplus. The 1901 and 1902 sights are collectible in and of themselves. Some will not feed spire points very well from the mag, and Krag factory ammo goes in and out of production as does its brass so grab it before the next shortage occurs. That being said, I love them and have restored several of them.

    The shooter grade ones in full military trim start at $600-700 and keep going up in in excellent condition or if a genuine carbine and/or a rare 94 model with an untampered with stock. Sporterized versions are about half that from $350-500 depending on stocks, accessories, scopes, etc. Cartouched stocks (probably because these are pretty fragile stocks compared with Mausers and Springfield) bring a hefty price by themselves if complete and unmonkeyed with. Cut stocks, no so much. Sporter stocks designed for the Krag do bring a decent price and several places used to make Krag sporter stocks.

    Good luck with your quest.
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2019
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  18. fpgt72

    fpgt72 member

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    I think it is still on the pc at home....as it is going to be colder then ice for a bit I will upload it to the tubes.
     
  19. fpgt72

    fpgt72 member

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    I have told this story before....

    Back in the 1950's in rural Tenn. the FiL and his brother bought a Krag rifle out of a bucket at a general store....they bought that Krag because they could not afford the $25 for the 1903. They used this rifle for hunting and they did "pretty it up". He went into heart failure and total denial when he saw Krag prices not long ago.....who would pay that for that old gun.....what does a new hunting rifle cost on the cheap side.....why the hell would you buy that.

    I think it is a little like the 91/30 of a few years ago....A little...they are so darn cheap why not. Well back in 1950 you did not have not many choices in the inexpensive area, and turning an old $15 Krag into a lighter sporting gun was an option.....today and even back when the MW was $100 it is just flat fing stupid.

    I really think this is why we see so many Krag rifles that are sportered and done from good old country boy to darn good examples. It was something that was smart to do, a new sporting gun was going to cost you at least a couple hundred new.

    Krags are a real mess on their configurations, all the sights and all the different types. And it goes into what I was saying before you need to know what you are buying.....like with the M1, they did make them without a lug....just like Krag carbines did get made with no saddle ring or other horse soldier type stuffs on it. Know what you are buying.

    Most of the time the book that you learn this stuff from is cheaper then the rifle.....most of the time the book is cheaper.
     
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  20. Corpral_Agarn

    Corpral_Agarn Member

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    It may be off topic but what am i looking for in a shooter Krag?

    I am okay with sporters.

    Id want to put some rounds through it, maybe take it to a 3 gun match
     
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  21. fpgt72

    fpgt72 member

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    For starters I would say the same stuff you look for in any 100+ year old gun. With a Krag you deal with the action and that unique magazine system. Keep in mind the US first smokeless rifle, and all that first smokeless issues go with it....from corrosive to what the hell has happened to this thing in the past 100 years. The Krag action will not take high pressures real well....they tried to push them after the spanish american war and it just did not work....at best the bolt will start to torque.....or worse.

    They can have some mag issues....it is a little complex.

    As far as prices go it looks like I need to move to the orange state....here you are not going to touch any Krag for under a grand that is still in military trim....sporters are still quite a bit less, but I generally don't study them that hard, not of interest to me. The carbines....last one I saw was pretty nice at over $2k.

    Hay prices so I drifted back to the OP's post....don't kill this great thread yet forum police :)

    As I went back to prices And going off memory of what he was talking about.....nothing that is nice is cheap anymore....and my nice I mean in good shape. I saw a MAS 49/56 still in 7.5 that the guy was asking $1,300 for....good night had they gotten that expensive.....for a french rifle....when did that happen.

    I really think the only "bargain" out there is Italy....carcano is really the only thing out there that is still going for little money....the older conversions to 6.5 I would not touch with a ten foot pole....if still in BP sure...but not in smokeless...no way I do like my face and fingers I find useful. Part of this is the stigma around carcano....the kennedy rifle thing....IMHO no good off the shelf ammo, only one company making the correct profile bullet.....these are all marks against this rifle.....I will stand by my guns and say it is not the strongest action out there....there are better, but if everything is in good shape it will not blow up. However finding a "good" one is hard...most are mix masters...but a good as it left the factory type deal, they are not sloppy at all.
     
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  22. theotherwaldo

    theotherwaldo Member

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    They are still out there.
    In the last year I have picked up:
    • a Berthier M-16 with a sanded and shortened stock for $120.00;
    • a 1916 Mauser in 7mm with a reshaped stock for $175;
    • a Carcano Model "I" in 6.5 Jap for $150;
    • a Winchester M-1 Garand for $800;
    • a couple of Arisaka Type 99s for $250 total
    • and several parts guns for pocket change, basically.
    The beginning of hunting season is the best time to look, when folks drag out Grandpa's old gun to trade for the newest thing in black plastic.
    So keep looking
     
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  23. boom boom
    • Contributing Member

    boom boom Moderator Staff Member

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    Occasionally someone will take a Krag to one of those antique military rifle shootoffs and @Slamfire might know something about that. There was a weird speedfeeder that is a serious collectible made that you might be able to duplicate for it.

    On the mag, a common problem is a bent hingepin which makes it difficult to open and close the mag along with a small metal rounded triangle which is pinned into the bottom of the receiver. If this is messed up, it can lead to misfeeding issues. Some will feed spire points from the mag and some won't as the issued round was a round nosed bullet. Do not plan on hogging out the receiver feed ramp as it is case hardened and you will get a short life. The Krag is a rimmed cartridge which is good because the Krag is not really setup for gas events outside of the chamber. You do have to load the Krag in a certain way to avoid rimlock because it is a rimmed cartridge.

    The bolt is a PITA to remove and requires a third hand to get good at it. Commonly, extractors can get damaged and need replacement and the extractor assembly is RIVETED together. and the bolt itself it a one lug design which is enough for the cartridge that it is chambered for. Some idiots would lap the bolt lugs or the receiver lug recess so that the bolt handled would bear and then fire hot rounds in it. This is idiotic because they lapped through the case hardening and the firearm is now not very safe. If the bolt handle bears at the back on the receiver, don't buy as it is ruined.

    The military went through trying to "improve" the issued Krag rounds and ended up having to backtrack after a bunch of them cracked the lugs on their bolts. The Army had to have replacement bolts made to makeup for this disaster. That is one of the reasons that you can still get NOS bolts for it because these rifles were called back into service for rear echelon troops during WWI due to severe shortages of new rifles for front line troops. For that reason, watch out for a cracked bolt lug and more uncommonly receiver damage from rebarrelling. The Krag is difficult to rebarrel without a special receiver head that engages the bottom recesses of the unusual receiver. Occasionally Bubba can create some damage here if they were heavy handed in rebarrelling--those with Springfield 1903 barrels are the usual suspects and this damage to the bottom of the receiver can be hidden if inside a stock.

    I already mentioned the trigger but a few misguided souls tried to make the trigger single stage instead of the two stage and you would need to replace such a trigger/sear which is not that difficult. There were a few headless cocking piece Krags made for a bit faster lock time so avoid these. Otherwise than removing the extractor, the bolt itself is relatively easy to break down. Watch out for damaged firing pin tips (these are like the 1903 with a rod and replaceable firing pin tip) that is deformed or a cocking rod that is damaged. Especially scrutinize the parts of a rifle bolt that have demonstrates extensive pitting around the firing pin hole as it is probably piercing primers now and again.

    Normal stuff like headspace (.303 gages work for this and get the coin kind), barrel and chamber conditions are just as any other except watch out for wildcats. Bore diameters tend to wander both from wear and when manufactured. What is not normal about the Krag is that the front sight base is brazed on and uses an incredibly small pin to retain the sight blade. The sight base can crack under use and the sight blades can be damaged rather easily. The ones using 1903 barrels have 1903 front sights which are better frankly than the Krag's. Sporters often have a variety of commercial front sights and the 1903 front sight was often added. The issued rear sights are attached with some incredibly tiny screws and these were often buggered up or broken off during rear right removal. This usually requires making a larger holes for the sight to attach and using a modern threaded screw as Criterion did in their new barrels. Scoping these normally requires either using a scout scope mounted forward or a side mount scope. Have no idea about sight bases available for these.

    Did I mention that the stocks were fragile? Well, proper fitting is absolutely required for a Krag stock as it is barely a one piece stock. The floor of the receiver is supported by incredibly thin wood and the wrist of these often gets cracks as well as the tang area. Improper fitting leads to chipping and cracking and as the wood is over one century old, people have globbed all kinds of finishes on them and sanded them down to slim them for sporting purposes. GunnyUSMC has probably worked on a Krag stock and I did twice--one to extend an existing cut stock at the front band and the second was to try to restore a stock broken in shipment which was less than successful due to the thinness of the wood. A few places used to make repro stocks but those currently are few and far between. Macon Gunstocks is one that I have seen still making them and they pop up on auction sites now and again. Cut stocks are fairly available.

    The second shock is that handguards for these are astronomical and because each of the different sight types requires its own special handguard--you often have to go with repros and inlet them yourself.
    examples of the different handguards https://www.bing.com/images/search?...07206107&selectedIndex=5&qpvt=krag+handguards

    One reason that these are so scarce is that they are thin and use riveted prongs on the underside to secure the handguard to the barrel (similar to the SMLE rear handguard and about as fragile.) People trying to remove these without gently popping them loose with the sight blade raised and then navigating the handguard to perpendicular to the sight crack or break them upon removal.

    Last, the 1901 and 1902 sights are imho the best for accurate work with the 1901 being a slight favorite. The 1901 was the basis for the WWI era Springfield sight and it duplicates the older Springfield Trapdoor Buffington sights (because the General that approved them for Ordnance was the same guy) and it is adjustable for windage and has an incredibly tiny peep sight for distance. The Crozier 1902 sight is basically an 1898 open sight like the SMLE used but with a tiny peep sight mounted to the rear of the sight on a foldable leaf.
     
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  24. theotherwaldo

    theotherwaldo Member

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    I picked up a thoroughly Bubba'd '99 Krag, primarily to have an example of the action.
    It intrigued me,
    The stock was shortened, the fore-end slimmed and reshaped, and a pistol grip was grafted in. The receiver is drilled and tapped, with a side-mounted older Weaver scope.
    Bubba got especially heavy-handed here. The front bell of the scope would have touched the swell of the barrel around the forward edge of the chamber, so Bubba filed off about 1/16" at the contact point.
    The actual function of the action is fine and it should be safe to shoot with normal loads, but... .
     
  25. MosinT53Hunter

    MosinT53Hunter Member

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    Well, if the OP is interested, Gunbroker has a regular Mosin Nagant 91/30 made in 1942 for a buy now price of $160. Lowest I have seen in years.
     
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