Discussion in 'Rifle Country' started by Antihero, Nov 3, 2019.
you made me just look through gun broker I didn't find that, saw a lot of starting bid auctions with bids in that price range and saw a boat load of listings with $400.00 up buy now listings plus shipping and plus transfer fees lol. That is one thing that peeves me about gun broker if I remember there are no listing fees so a seller can list and list without being motivated to lower the price when a item doesn't sell.
What I see is starting bids at $150.00 or $200.00 being bid up on and buy now prices for $400 plus just getting no hits. LOL some sellers think they ar going to sell a run of the mill for $500 good luck , the supply isn't that low to be had.
Anybody know what the going prices for a m38 are? Laminated stock. Clean bore
I just checked GB searched Swiss K31, wow..... one listing $500 and most starting at $700. Not too many listed either. Far ways from 13 to 15 years ago going for $120.00 lol. BUT they are a magnificent rifle among the most accurate milsurps made and available. I'm not sure I could bring myself to pay todays prices but I already have several thankfully. Even a Swedish Mauser can be had cheaper than s Swiss these days it seems at least based on GB.
I suppose if I was really into milsurps and didn't have one yet I might get one at today's prices but dang....that's a big chunk of change , and this is WHY in the long term best not to sporterize a surplus rifle.
I have a great 91/30 already, thanks though
That M1....the guy should be arrested for steeling....same with the 99's if they are in original trim....after they are cut up, they are pretty much worthless.....the rest....modified, and anymore people want original.....Then carcano...and that name gets "cheap" stuck to it....I have seen very nice examples, original bolts, nice tight bolts sell for $350....gun looks like it walked off the factory floor.
I don't find the bolt that hard...but then I am use to it......I think it is a little like the older ruger 22 pistols, they get the rep for being a real PITA to take apart but once you do it a few times no biggie. Same with the Krag bolt, just lift the extractor out of the way...no real biggie. Just lift and turn.....it is not that hard and I can do it with nerve damage in my left side.....If I can do it anyone that knows how to do it can.
I will leave the krag discussion with this.....IMHO factory ammo (when you can find it) is loaded too hot.....My handloads are closer to the 2000fps number.....I get you need to push some bullets to get them to work correctly on game, that is not me....steel and paper don't care. Also IMHO if you are hunting with a Krag in any form....I am not sure that is a real wise thing to do.....If you need cup numbers that high to get the bullet to do what it is designed to do....is this really the best thing for the rifle.....I don't think so.
But then again I am more of a collector.....but I do shoot them, and have shot them in matches...I always score at the bottom of the field, but part of that I think is dragging a new odd ball old rifle to the next months game. Playing with different toys is fun for me, getting good with just one toy....it just does not hold my interest.....might be more inexpensive if it did.
Aside from that look at C&R's video on the krag a great many of the points he talked about are in that video....there are too books for it, one on the american krag, and another on krag in general....if you are interested I would say grab those.
I have two where it is difficult to move the extractor over enough to get the bolt out, one is a 94 Krag and the other is a 98 model. The 94 came with a bolt, the 98 had to have a bolt fitted to the action along with a new extractor as I bought it as a barrelled receiver. The 96 model, for whatever reason is easier. I suspect that the tolerance ranges are wide enough that it is easier on some than others to move the extractor out of the way to remove the bolt. It is certainly easier to remove the bolt on a rifle with a bolt release.
The Franklin Mallory book is a std. reference but long out of print and pricey. Brophy is another std. reference and also out of print and pricey. The Poyer collector book pretty much lays out parts, models, etc. and is a decent reference for buying or restoring a Krag with a clear diagrams of the rifle and identification of the parts. It is still in print and cheap. There is a reprint of a Technical Analysis of the Development of the Krag which I have not read and various disassembly and parts publications that are cheap. +
All of the factory loads that I have seen for the Krag are around 180 gr. but most of the factory loads available now seem to have spitzer points which can be trouble in some Krags regarding feeding from the mag (unless you use the mag cutoff and make it a single shot). That being said, the factories have access to powders which can often be of lower pressure. There are very few new rifles made to shoot Krag ammo so I suspect that any pressure levels of factory ammo are well below max for the action. That being said, the Krag is a wonderful rifle with cast bullets with the benefits of lower pressure on the 120 yr old + rifle.
Hard to know the pressures on what a factory ammo is at....all we normal humans can do is go off of just how fast it is....and what the weight is....then toss the numbers with some guesses to get yet another guess.
I don't cast, but am lucky enough to have MO. bullet down the road from me....I use their 45-70 like it is going out of style. I just use "normal" off the shelf bullets with Krag, but I do download them. I don't have my book handy but want to say the old standby's like Varget and 4095 are what I go with....could be wrong tho....I don't remember but I want to say 3031 really got along.
Sucks getting old and not remembering stuffs.
Ditto on casting, I buy mine from places like Missouri Bullets too and have some with the new to me Hi-Tek coating to play around with reloading.
Now that nights are below 90 degrees I'm about to do a lot of casting.
I've got a BIG back log... .
As a youngish person myself (turn 30 next year) I look at milsurps today and I compare them to other bolt actions (Ruger and Savage) and I don't see the value in 20th Century milsurps as shooters. Collecting, sure, but I don't see how a Mosin at $400 is a better rifle than a Ruger Predator in .308. Milsurp to Milsurp, I don't see how a $400 Mosin beats a $500 Chinese SKS.
$500 seems high for an SKS to people because 20 years ago they were everywhere for $100. Hey, look at the AK market and the low quality of modern made AK's for the same $500 and you'll realize what makes those Chinese SKS' worth that money.
IMO, the only Milsurps worth buying today are the Japanese Arisaka in 7.7mm. People are adverse to them simply because the ammo is $2 a round for bad factory ammo. Reloading 7.7 Jap is not impossible and brass is easy to form from .30-06 cases. For $300, the Arisaka's are great.
That said, I have an interest in 19th Century black powder cartridge rifles like the Snider, Martini-Henry, and Chassepot. Dunno why, I guess because people are less interested in such guns vs milsurps from the 20th Century.
The old Mosins are well built rifles but I could never go for those awkward safeties. Not for me.
Just do not use the safety, Bolt actions can be used without safeties ,Just like the French Army training shows. The French did not even put safeties on their rifles..
I have 5 Mosins ( 5? How did that happen ?), and have never used the safety on any of them.
TBH, the safety looks to be too awkward/dangerous to use.
Honest to God, I am getting to old to have the strength to use that thing..
fpgt72: Trust me, I know what you're saying and exactly what you're saying. It is easy to look back almost 60 to 80 years and apply today's values.
In the early 1960s, my father and I were what most people today call "bubba." My father was a member of the NRA and back then, there was something called the NRA/DCM. The short form, we couldn't afford a commercial rifle; OTOH, we could afford a less than $20 1903 from the Letterkenny Army Depot. An auto parts store had 1903-A3s and Nazi 98s for $35 in galvanized garbage cans.
I have two "bubba-ized 1903-A* Springfield rifles. The one is a 30-06 and the other is a 25-06 AI. I mowed a lot of lawns, shoveled a lot of snow and whatever to build the 25-06 AI.
How about "real" WWII 1911-A1s for less than $25? Or Nazi Lugers or P-38s for $49.95 from "Ye Old Hunter" delivered to your door? Or more recently, a Poly Tech Legend AK-47 for $150?
Could be when people today look back decades to see what they could have bought today is worth in the future; they'll understand.
Krag's are interesting, but due to the lack of a stripper clip guide, I only saw one shot in a 100 yard reduced NRA match. You can't load the thing in the rapid fire stages and complete your string.
I was able to buy this at the CMP. The barrel was excellent, so I had to have it.
interesting rear sight, very complicated
From what I have read these were converted from US stocks at Benicia Arsenal in the San Fransisco Bay area and shipped to the Philippines. I have fired some cast lead bullets in the thing, and that's about it. Not really interested in doing more with it.
There was a time when I really wanted a Norwegian Krag in 6.5 X 55. They are as rare has hen's teeth. I believe they were modified for stripper clips. Post WW1 versions are probably better made than the 1890's American Krag's. The Krag is a smooth and slick action, too expensive to make, and in my opinion, too expensive to make into a decent scoped sporter. I have seen one cracked lug on a Krag, and the 30-40 Krag is not some high pressure round like a 300 Win Mag. The early metallurgy and low pressures of the action really limit what can be done with a Krag military action.
The Norwegian Krag is an good example of "not invented here" syndrome. Norway and Sweden were under the same King, and Sweden bought the M1896 Mauser, and Norway should have purchased the Mauser as it is superior in so many respects to the Krag. But the Krag designer was Ole Herman Johannes Krag, (notice the resemblance) and he was the head of the Norweigan Arsenal making service rifles, so, small wonder that Norway used the Krag in 6.5 X 55.
I am going to claim the AR15 is a good example of the American "not invented here" syndrome. I met a fellow shooter last year who is the last surviving member of the Air Force test and selection team that decided to buy AR15's for the Air Force. Before Gen Curtiss LeMay bought the AR15 for the USAF, he had a formal test and evaluation of a number of rifles suitable for USAF base protection. I recall the rifles under test were the M14, the M1 Carbine, probably a Garand, the AR15, and the AK47. The one user test I specifically remember was holding the weapon out with one hand and shooting at targets 200 yards away!. Anyway, at the end of all the user tests, the weapon that was the most reliable, easiest to control, simplest to operate, simplest to maintain, was the AK 47! And these were battle field capture weapons, not some factory prepped weapons. But as the man said, it was politically impossible to adopt a Soviet rifle in the early 1960's. You probably remember that time. Better dead than red, Godless Communism, the Stasi and the Wall.
Now the Communist Chinese are our biggest trading partners and the electronic device you are using to read this, was made in China. And shortly, will also be totally designed and built in China. Godless Capitalism is being questioned as a just and moral economic system. How the world turns!
And they were overpriced back then.
I cannot, for the life of me, understand the popularity of Mosin-Nagant rifles in this country. (Same applies to SKS etc.) I recall going to gun shows where there were trash cans full of Mosins, with a sign that said "Take your pick $50 ea." Invariably, after every gun show in our area, people would show up at the range with one, shoot an absolutely horrible group with a Mosin (I'm talking minute of barn side, shotgun pattern groups), and feel good about it.
How Jude Law ever managed to hit anything let alone kill Ed Harris with one is beyond reason.
I will never understand.
DB, look back to 2001 when the movie Enemy at the Gates came out. Good timing for importers to sell boatloads of cheep mosins. Real steel , wood and a lot of history. I was getting them three for $100 back then. Some are decent shootets. Both my 90 and 91/30 shoot better than I can . The military sights are what they are.
I was not looking for a hunting or precision rifle and true collectibles where out of my price range.
That was one of the big draws to the military surplus. Anyone could play. Consequently, you saw every level of quality in wartime rifles, and every level of gunsmithing/gunplumber work. It was good if it helped someone acquire skill without risking a (then $300) M70 or M700. It was bad if someone overestimated their abilities or just hacked mindlessly.
I initially regarded the 91/30 in much the same light as DBCooper, but impulse bought one at Cabelas at the $129 stage and must confess that it has been fun to shoot. Yes, I could make $$ on it by selling it, but shooting it is a bit like shooting a Kentucky long rifle. The old iron holds a fascination for me and I am grateful that I got the opportunity to pick up a few of the old war horses.
Also some people do not pick up a gun worrying about shooting tight groups.. Some guns are for shooting tight groups, with other guns, one is happy to hit the Gong. There are many reasons for someone wanting a certain rifle. God knows if I understand all the reasons in myself to even start to explain others.
My Chinese T53, dated 1955, is as accurate as I could have wished for, and my favorite hunting rifle. Last time I went hunting with my brother-in-law, we happened across four deer off a fair distance. My brother in law brought a range finder on this trip, and as we were scoping out the ones we were going to shoot at, he read 260 yards out. I got mine with two rounds, and he got his with two rounds. He had a Winchester 88 in 308 with a scope, I had my mil-surp Chinese T53 with iron sites, turned down bolt, and rubber butt pad. I was a very happy guy that day.
Had I hunted with modern rifles? Yep. Did I enjoy it with those? No, not as much as I did with a rifle that I had been searching for previously for about 15 years. To me, it was and is the right fit for me, and that's all that matters.
It could be argued that, historically, American ordnance was the antithesis of the "not invented here" syndrome. Starting with the M1795 musket, American designs copied French prototypes. With the Krag, the U.S. took a Norwegian rifle and coupled it with a Swiss bayonet. Then, the M1903 Springfield was in reality a modified Mauser. American originality only came to the fore with the Garand. But even there, the inventor was Canadian-born.
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