Teaching concealed carry to 18 year-olds.

[mljdeckard]

Yes. Utah now allows 18 year-olds to carry. (I think the law is literally effective on the 9th of May.)

While we can intellectually acknowledge that there is not necessarily any reason this is bad, I am still going to place some emphasis on learning to live a risk-averse lifestyle. I know it's only a few years' difference, but in that few years, most of us have learned a few things about not doing stupid things in stupid places with stupid people.

Also, I just realized, this makes it legal for high school seniors to CARRY AT SCHOOL. I am going to tell them, there is not a principal on this planet who will say this is a good idea.

Is there anything else that comes to mind for this?

 

[beatcop]

It's only a matter of time before it gets screwed up.

 

[1911 guy]

I will make the statement with a qualifier: "Just because you can doesn't mean you should".

18 year old kids can be very responsible. Or they can be complete morons. Just like fifty year old people. Absolutely, they should be taught. But that doesn't mean they need to rush out tomorrow and start carrying a handgun. "Because I can" is never a good reason to do anything of importance. Collecting match-box cars is something to do "because I can". If they do not understand, cannot articulate why, and know the responsibilities associated with choosing to CCW, they're not ready. If I were you, I'd spend a lot more time on these things than on choosing a pistol. Same thing applies to people of any age.

 

[mljdeckard]

I also think there are a couple of mitigating factors here. One is ADD. If most people who get a permit do so with the intent of casual use, and then don't carry when they realize it is uncomfortable, I think a lot of these kids will get over the thrill pretty quick.

I already emphasize things along the lines of not dating psychos, and getting rid of bad friends.

It's easy to say; someone will screw it up, but I also realize, it's a matter of time before a 21+ carrier screws it up too. When I was 18, I was the assistant armorer in an armor battalion, I had access to about 400 weapons. I never did anything stupid. But at the same time, If I could talk to 18 year-old me, I would grab him by the shirt and tell him a couple of things more than I would tell 21 year-old me.

 

[Telekinesis]

It's only a matter of time before it gets screwed up.

Then please show us the reports of these adults between 18 and 20 with CCW permits screwing it up. This has been legal for years in other states (off the top of my head, Alabama, Maine, and New Hampshire have minimum ages for CCW at 18) so if it was a legitimate problem, there would be ample evidence. This comment seems very much like the old "there will be blood in the streets" arguments.



I think it's interesting that people who are otherwise pro gun right expansion (not singling out anyone in particular) are uncomfortable with expanding those rights to a class of people they don't like.

Several states have had permits for anyone over the age of 18 for years and there haven't been any issues of teens making bad decisions and shooting people who shouldn't have been shot. At least no more so than the general population. Maine, New Hampshire, and Alabama all set the minimum age for a permit at 18, and there are even more states that allow open carry at 18 without a permit. I may be a bit biased as I was one of those 18 year old "kids" with carry permits from 3 different states, but I feel that if someone is going to go through the time, cost, and effort (and maybe training) to get a carry permit and do everything legally, they're probably going to be ok carrying a gun.





To take the age restriction line of thinking to the other extreme, I know of a lot of older people who legitimately shouldn't be handling firearms, or for that matter other dangerous equipment like chainsaws and cars. There is a significant portion of that population that has either Alzheimer's or dementia. If mental maturity (and not age of majority) is a criteria for determining who gets constitutional rights, it should be equally valid at the other end of the spectrum.

Therefore in the spirit of A Modest Proposal, I suggest that we restrict the firearms rights of that group as well. Really, we don't need a bunch of old people running around with guns, they'll just shoot the neighborhood kids for walking across their lawn!

So logically, your constitutional right to bear arms should only apply when you're between the ages of 21 and 65, can I get an amen?

You may also recall that the NRA recently fought to overturn a ruling similar (but much more limited) to my hyperbole above.



As far as training, any good training program (regardless of target audience) should espouse the benefits of a risk adverse lifestyle. The age old "don't go stupid places with stupid people and do stupid things".
I also think force on force should be more wide spread. There's nothing quite as sobering as doing a training evolution where the bad guys shoot back. It makes people quickly realize that the gun is not a talisman and they are not a superhero.

 

[Good Ol' Boy]

IMHO in this day and age I don't think are many 18yo's that should be carrying a firearm. That's NOT to say I don't respect the right, if it's there, I'm sure there are some mature and well versed enough to do so.

That being said, I think all you can do is educate basic gun safety and general SD laws, although most that are warranted/interested to carry probably already have a familiarity with the aforementioned.

It's kind of a slippery slope to me. I personally know of one person who is 18 and open carries, but he has an above average father, is mature and is generally speaking well versed in firearms. But I kind of feel like most of todays younger generation would care more about their smartphones than a gun they might be carrying.

 

[Varminterror]

At home on the ranch, I open carried a revolver (SBH 44) or pistol (Mark II 22) on my hip from about age 10 onward. These were defensive for leglessand four legged assailants, and "no medicine" tools to manage issues on the ranch, but certainly would have served for two legged assailants if it had ever came to that. It wasn't uncommon for many of us farm kids to drive into the small town(s) nearby to pick up parts, tools, lunch, seed or feed, etc. long before the state said any of us were legally able to be licensed to drive.

I was in my first year of college (but had enough credits such I technically entered as a "sophomore") when I turned 18, and when I moved out from my parents house that year at 17, I never moved back in even during summers. I'd been paying taxes independently, not claimable as a dependent by my parents for 3 or 4 years at that point. I worked 3 jobs that year to pay for college, had 5 jobs simultaneously by the time I graduated - which was at 21yrs old. I'd finished two degrees with two minors in the meantime.

So maybe I'm biased in my thinking that a legal adult of 18-20yrs old should be expected to be sufficiently responsible to carry a concealed firearm.

 

[Old Dog]

I think it's interesting that people who are otherwise pro gun right expansion (not singling out anyone in particular) are uncomfortable with expanding those rights to a class of people they don't like.
/QUOTE]

You must not hang out with a lot of 18-year-olds, eh?

No one here says they don't like 18-21 year old people.

All I will say is that I don't feel comfortable sharing the local roads and highways with kids of this age group, who seem disproportionately represented in a lot of situations I used to encounter in a previous job.

Just because some of us may not be comfortable with the notion of 18-year-olds being able to legally carry concealed, in no way makes us hypocrites or closet antis.

As individuals, I have no doubt large numbers of 18-year-old kids are capable of carrying firearms in a responsible manner. As a group, not so much.

Frankly, most American males I know don't get their heads out of their butts until they're in their early '30s, and many never do ...

For the record, as a small arms instructor on active duty, I taught a lot of young kids how to carry, use and maintain weapons, but there were a lot I would've preferred just issuing rubber guns to.

 

[manithree]

Also, I just realized, this makes it legal for high school seniors to CARRY AT SCHOOL. I am going to tell them, there is not a principal on this planet who will say this is a good idea.

Is there anything else that comes to mind for this?

Uh, maybe you should actually read the statute:

(2) Notwithstanding Subsection 76-10-505.5(2), a person under the age of 21 with a
145 permit of any kind to carry a concealed firearm may not carry a concealed firearm on or about
146 school premises, as defined in Subsection 76-10-505.5(1)(a).

 

[Phaedrus/69]

How is an 18 year old supposed to get the gun for CCW to begin with? Doesn't Federal law require handgun purchasers to be 21? I suppose an 18 year old can still be gifted a sidearm but s/he can't buy one IIRC.

 

[Telekinesis]

How is an 18 year old supposed to get the gun for CCW to begin with? Doesn't Federal law require handgun purchasers to be 21? I suppose an 18 year old can still be gifted a sidearm but s/he can't buy one IIRC.

Federal law states that anyone 18 or over can purchase and possess pistols (if I recall correctly, it's USC 922 (x) ). You only have to be 21 to purchase a pistol from a FFL. So they could either be gifted the gun or they could purchase it in a private sale.

You must not hang out with a lot of 18-year-olds, eh?

No one here says they don't like 18-21 year old people.

...

Just because some of us may not be comfortable with the notion of 18-year-olds being able to legally carry concealed, in no way makes us hypocrites or closet antis.

I actually do hang out with 18-20 year olds fairy regularly. I am an alumni advisor to a local chapter of my fraternity. While I do see that some of them aren't very mature, I also see a fair number who are. I don't see the immature group as a reason to bar the whole age group from being able to go through training and pay fees so that they can get a permit to be allowed to let a jacket cover their gun.

Being uncomfortable with adults 18-20 carrying weapons is fine. Look at YouTube and you'll find a bunch of people that I'm personally uncomfortable with having access to firearms. However, I do not say that they should universally be barred from getting a CCW permit.

 

[hdwhit]

mljdeckard wrote:
Is there anything else that comes to mind for this?

I want to echo 1911 guy in saying that the phrase "Just because you can doesn't mean you should" probably can't be repeated often enough.

The human brain doesn't reach full maturity for most people until about age 23 with a full appreciation of the consequences of their actions. I went through basic training when I was 20 and the maturity difference between myself and the 18 year olds I was with - particularly on the rifle range - surprised me.

There's another post on the site right now about a man in Washington who found a stranger had broken into a house he owned and was taking a shower. The man left the house, picked up a gun and returned to shoot the stranger. If a mature man couldn't work out that was wrong what are the odds of every 18 year old in Utah successfully navigating that same mental pathway?

Leave the gun at home until you're 21 (or better yet, 23) would be my mantra.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Yes. Utah now allows 18 year-olds to carry. (I think the law is literally effective on the 9th of May.)

While we can intellectually acknowledge that there is not necessarily any reason this is bad, I am still going to place some emphasis on learning to live a risk-averse lifestyle. I know it's only a few years' difference, but in that few years, most of us have learned a few things about not doing stupid things in stupid places with stupid people.

Also, I just realized, this makes it legal for high school seniors to CARRY AT SCHOOL. I am going to tell them, there is not a principal on this planet who will say this is a good idea.

Is there anything else that comes to mind for this?

Speculation like this is pointless. Every time a gun law is liberalized, speculators come out of the woodwork with dire predictions. Grass will grow in the streets! The infant mortality rate will double! There will be shootouts over parking spaces!

And those predictions never come true.

 

[Berger.Fan222]

The best way I've heard it explained is:

You win every gun fight that you avoid. And the best way to avoid gun fights is:
1. Don't do stupid things
2. Don't go to stupid places
3. Don't do stupid things.

Healthy 18 year old males will keep themselves out of trouble much more by following those three rules than by CCW.

I don't worry too much about what the worst case 18-21 year olds are out there doing. I'm working hard to raise my own children and grandchildren to be much better than the worst case. If other parents worked as hard as my wife and I, we'd all have less to worry about.

 

[manithree]

Speculation like this is pointless. Every time a gun law is liberalized, speculators come out of the woodwork with dire predictions. Grass will grow in the streets! The infant mortality rate will double! There will be shootouts over parking spaces!

And those predictions never come true.

It's even worse here. We're what the MSM would call the gun community (some here might even qualify as experts). So when things like this show up here, the spin in the statist media is that "even experts within the gun community oppose this legislation." And they're technically not lying.

You're old enough to buy a new rifle, serve in the military and law enforcement in many areas, why shouldn't you have the right to carry?

 

[Jeff White]

Let's try to keep this on topic. The OP asked a legitimate question about the best way to reach students in the 18-21 year old age group.. This thread is not about if it is wise or unwise to allow people to carry at age 18. The legislature in Utah has already made that decision.

The question on the table and the one that is relevant in this subforum is: Should I change my presentation for students in the 18-21 year old age group, and if I should, what should I add or delete from my standard class?

If you want to debate if the Utah legislature was right, then start a thread in GGD.

I know the OP has experience with that age group in the military, but teaching civilians of that age group who have paid for the instruction is going to require a somewhat different approach then dealing with Private Snuffy.

 

[patmccoy]

I have not changed anything in our concealed carry class when we have an 18 year old student (our minimum age for the class). The older students seem more inured to using firearms for self defense than do the younger students. Both get the legal and psychological repercussions of using deadly force drilled into them, but I am actually more concerned with some of the "old hands" who take the class just to qualify for a CCW, because they "already know all this stuff".

 

[shafter]

I'm uncomfortable with 18yo's carrying firearms, but I'm more uncomfortable restricting the 2nd Amendment.