The Customer Is Always Right?

[evan price]

Vance's in Columbus.. Atticus, I am there like every week.

The stuff you see there is just too unreal t odescribe, a combination of being the best-priced gunshop in the state and attracting shooters of every class, dimension and ethnicity to rub shoulders.

I had a guy there two weeks ago we were talking about CCW, he said he worked unarmed security and wanted a CCW piece to carry when he was working. Turns out he of course did not have a CCW himself but was going to carry anyway. Oh, and he has been looking for a SPAS-12 because it is the perfect home defense gun and he would keep it in his car for just in case. He had a snub .38 in his pocket at the time which he proudly showed me. He said he was going to try some .357s in it when he could afford to buy some (in a .38 revolver, NOT a 357).


Then there was the guys who always crowd around looking at the Desert Eagles in gold plate with tigerstripes. Somehow that always attracts a certain... style.... of customer.


The old guy leaning on a cane who wanted one of those single action reproduction .22 revolvers that look like a colt SAA.. he takes it and starts pointing at other customers to see how it pointed. He's really whipping it around at anyone who is nearby. About five guys had that instant going-for-cover look at first when he did it, and he's snapping away on the hammer and trigger the whole time....!
I happened to be standing quite close and was one of the frist ones he stuck the gun at my chest and started "firing"... I told him politely and firmly to not do that anymore. The salesman tells me it's not loaded, relax.

 

[SGW42]

I've had so many guns inadvertently pointed at me in gun shops I've lost count. It really drives me nuts, sometimes I feel like going over there and asking them not to do it myself.

Not really a customer related thing, but on a similar note - I really can't get over how Gander Mtn. displays some of their hand guns. They have some waist-level glass cases, but also quite a few that are eye- and head-level - and all the guns are stored with the grip to the back, which means the muzzle is pointed right at you! Other shops I've been to display the guns either on their side pointed sideways, or have them on little racks that keep the grips up and muzzles down. One store puts their guns in the cases pointed out - but all the cases are waist-level.

I know the guns are all unloaded, with trigger locks, in locked cases, but walking up to the cases in Gander Mtn. with a dozen or more muzzles pointed right at your face gives me the absolute willies!

 

[Markbo]

[IMG=Brian Dale]Nobody. That's the game. Everybody knows it.[/IMG]
No Sir. It's called business ethics. Perhaps you could take an online course. Thank you bogie and Wes.

A 5" group at 1,000 yards is possible.

Not yet it ain't! The light gun world record (11.5 lbs) is 6.125" aggregate. Most folks don't carry around 30 lb rail guns, so I mention this class only
http://www.6mmbr.com/schatz1000.html

The salesman tells me it's not loaded, relax.

I think you showed unbelievable restraint. I'd of snatched that gun out of that old man's hand like Grasshopper snatching that pebble... it would have taken him a couple of seconds to know it was even out of his hand

 

[Werewolf]

I think you showed unbelievable restraint. I'd of snatched that gun out of that old man's hand like Grasshopper snatching that pebble... it would have taken him a couple of seconds to know it was even out of his hand

And if you did that you'd be very lucky if you weren't charged with battery. Add to that that the guy was old and that makes it a lot easier to break a bone and you would find your self in serious trouble.

Stuff like that happens all the time in gun shops and the abusers are easy to identify if you remain aware of what's going on around you. When a moron is spotted just move to another part of the store and look at something else. Assaulting a gun shop's customers isn't the answer - well - at least most of the time anyway.

And for those who will argue that a gunshop customer pointing a store gun at you is assault and that makes snatching the gun out of his/her hands self defense? Good luck trying to convince a judge and/or jury of that.

For the legal beagles among you: In Oklahoma there are two statutes which address the issue of pointing a firearm at another person (probably similar statutes in most states). One is a felony and one is a misdemeanor. In the case of a gunshop customer pointing a firearm at another customer while checking sights, trigger pull etc it technically would fall under the misdemeanor statute - maybe. That said trying to get the maroon charged let alone prosecuted would be difficult if not impossible unless you were a cop, a judge or someone else with some legal system juice.

So I reiterate. Once a customer guilty of poor gun handling skills is identified just leave the area. In fact it might even be appropriate to just leave and while on the way out let the proprietor know exactly why.

 

[Markbo]

Well I darned sure don't see it all the time and I am always aware! I also don't think snatching a pistol out of a customer's hand could be considered assault in any way. Then again... I don't work in a gun store, so what do I know, huh?

 

[Werewolf]

so what do I know, huh?

Apparently not much. One needs to be very careful when laying hands on another lest one suffer the legal consequences.

Here's a legal definition of Battery:

The following elements must be proven to establish a case for battery: (1) an act by a defendant; (2) an intent to cause harmful or offensive contact on the part of the defendant; and (3) harmful or offensive contact to the plaintiff.

The Act The act must result in one of two forms of contact. Causing any physical harm or injury to the victim—such as a cut, a burn, or a bullet wound—could constitute battery, but actual injury is not required. Even though there is no apparent bruise following harmful contact, the defendant can still be guilty of battery; occurrence of a physical illness subsequent to the contact may also be actionable. The second type of contact that may constitute battery causes no actual physical harm but is, instead, offensive or insulting to the victim. Examples include spitting in someone's face or offensively touching someone against his or her will.

Touching the person of someone is defined as including not only contacts with the body, but also with anything closely connected with the body, such as clothing or an item carried in the person's hand. For example, a battery may be committed by intentionally knocking a hat off someone's head or knocking a glass out of some-one's hand.

Intent: Although the contact must be intended, there is no requirement that the defendant intend to harm or injure the victim. In Tort Law, the intent must be either specific intent—the contact was specifically intended—or general intent—the defendant was substantially certain that the act would cause the contact. The intent element is satisfied in Criminal Law when the act is done with an intent to injure or with criminal negligence—failure to use care to avoid criminal consequences. The intent for criminal law is also present when the defendant's conduct is unlawful even though it does not amount to criminal negligence.

Intent is not negated if the aim of the contact was a joke. As with all torts, however, consent is a defense. Under certain circumstances consent to a battery is assumed. A person who walks in a crowded area impliedly consents to a degree of contact that is inevitable and reasonable. Consent may also be assumed if the parties had a prior relationship unless the victim gave the defendant a previous warning.

There is no requirement that the plaintiff be aware of a battery at the time it is committed. The gist of the action is the lack of consent to contact. It is no defense that the victim was sleeping or unconscious at the time.

Harmful or Offensive Conduct It is not necessary for the defendant's wrongful act to result in direct contact with the victim. It is sufficient if the act sets in motion a force that results in the contact. A defendant who whipped a horse on which a plaintiff was riding, causing the plaintiff to fall and be injured, was found guilty of battery. Provided all other elements of the offense are present, the offense may also be committed by causing the victim to harm himself. A defendant who fails to act when he or she has a duty to do so is guilty—as where a nurse fails to warn a blind patient that he is headed toward an open window, causing him to fall and injure himself.

The full article can be found here:

http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Battery+(disambiguation)

 

[highorder]

another story:

a young man came into the shop looking for a full size range pistol in 9mm; a quite reasonable request. he was polite and well read. I showed him a Glock 17, Sig 226, and a Beretta 92F. he politely declined the 92F, saying that the slide will break in two after 1000 rounds or so.

he referenced the SEAL trials of the 90's as the coveted source. not totally off base, but far from the truth.

another customer came in one day and bought 250 rounds of 158gr SJHP for target practice. I casually asked about shooting 38's for practice. He told me that he has a .357, not a .38, but he figured out a better way: he got lighter recoil from his .357 by melting all the exposed lead off the front of a SJHP... again, not untrue, but is that the best idea?

 

[Markbo]

Oh my gosh Werewolf, that is quite a stretch! Grabbing back something that you have handed to a customer can hardly be compared to spitting in his face or knocking his hat off... especially what you snatch is a gun he is pointing at you!

Besides, these laws will be different state to state. Are you a personal injury attorney?

 

[U.S.SFC_RET]

I consider it to be one of the most serious forms of disrespect (lying). I mean the lying through your teeth type. If I run across those who do I will never do business with them, ever. I will even go as far to ask for a business card to remember them by.
I was taught that a man was as good as his word and I hold dear to it. I am not offended in the least but the word goes around. That includes local businesses as well. Local gun businesses.

 

[kermit315]

Markbo

showed up to a dealership and told the salesman exactly what I wanted and how much I wanted to spend (I quoted low, but whatever). He starts out with a truck 5K over my price range with a ton of bells and whistles I didn't need. He showed me 3 trucks that all differed from my request before we found the one i wanted...So i went across town and bought it from another dealership.

sorry to interject in this, but this seems very telling, especially the highlighted part. he said what he wanted, they kept showing him truck after truck after truck that wasnt what he wanted. How is going across town after being run around the car lot unreasonable or unethical? same goes with his .22. he said he wanted a bolt action .22, not a semi. that eliminates alot of possibilities right there. why would they still steer him towards the 800 semi auto instead of a bolt action like he requested. this is the same to me as walking in somewhere and being told "you dont know what you want, but I do and this is it"

Quote:
Originally Posted by evan price
The salesman tells me it's not loaded, relax.

I think you showed unbelievable restraint. I'd of snatched that gun out of that old man's hand like Grasshopper snatching that pebble... it would have taken him a couple of seconds to know it was even out of his hand

in this context you are putting yourself in Evan Prices shoes, and it wasnt his gun. the gun was handed from the guy running the table to the old guy. i dont think a third party walking up and snatching the gun out of the old guys hand would have gone over real well. loaded or not, it was a bonehead move by a guy who has been shooting for years probably, but it doesnt give you free reign to do whatever you want.

 

[bogie]

Markbo, everything is possible. It's just most of it is not probable.

 

[Markbo]

Kermit, unless he gave the car salesman a stock number, he did not tell him exactly what he wanted since nearly every truck on that lot is different. Since you jumped in here, let's examine what he said:

I usually try to avoid being the stupid customer by researching these types of purchases in depth before i even go to the store. I did this with my truck, showed up to a dealership and told the salesman exactly what I wanted and how much I wanted to spend (I quoted low, but whatever).

Showed up at a dealership without calling to make an appointment then dismisses his own dishonesty. Real professional.

He starts out with a truck 5K over my price range with a ton of bells and whistles I didn't need.

$5K over what? His lowball offer or what he really wanted to spend that the salesman doesn't know?

He showed me 3 trucks that all differed from my request before we found the one i wanted...So i went across town and bought it from another dealership.

He landed him on the truck he wanted. So he left???? He found the one you wanted! I mean shoot man... why didn't you pee on his shoes for being so danged helpful!

Even if he DID give him a very detailed description of an exact model then the salesman was simply showing him options. That is what car salesmen are taught to do... take a customer to look at vehicles to make absolutely sure that he puts him on the right car, i.e. he is providing a SERVICE which up to this point he is not getting paid for. He only gets paid if he sells a car.

And for those that just like to go to a lot to mess with them, you are engaging someone trying to make a living under false pretenses. Nice.

In the end, the salesman put him on the truck he wanted... so he left. Real nice.

Just coming into a business and throwing out a lowball number, then leaving in a snit and buying somewhere else is not negotiating. Negotiating is cooperating, working together, making a deal. Think of this statement:
"It is difficult to negotiate where neither will trust" Samuel Johnson. By his own statements Colin obviously did not work to build any trust with this salesman but instead chose to do the opposite and then blame the salesman. Reeeeal nice.

I think in both cases they were just showing him options - trying to make sure the customer knew all the choices they could offer. But after rehashing this a few times, I am curious now about the buyer... how old is he... how did he look... how did he carry and present himself? Was he as cocky and arrogant as his post made him sound? I deal with young buyers too and young men in particular are the biggest pain to deal with because they think they know everything and in actuality they rarely know much.



As far as the old fart, what I thought I had implied was I was putting myself in the gunstore clerks shoes... not any bystander or 'victim'. Remember the 4 rules?
RULE I: ALL GUNS ARE ALWAYS LOADED
RULE II: NEVER LET THE MUZZLE COVER ANYTHING YOU ARE NOT WILLING TO DESTROY
RULE III: KEEP YOUR FINGER OFF THE TRIGGER UNTIL YOUR SIGHTS ARE ON THE TARGET
RULE IV: BE SURE OF YOUR TARGET

Per Col. Jeff Cooper:
Quote
"RULE I: ALL GUNS ARE ALWAYS LOADED
There are no exceptions. Do not pretend that this is true. Some people and organizations take this rule and weaken it;e.g. "Treat all guns as if they were loaded." Unfortunately, the "as if" compromises the directness of the statement by implying that they are unloaded, but we will treat them as though they are loaded. No good! Safety rules must be worded forcefully so that they are never treated lightly or reduced to partial compliance.

All guns are always loaded - period!

This must be your mind-set. If someone hands you a firearm and says, "Don't worry, it's not loaded," you do not dare believe him. You need not be impolite, but check it yourself. Remember, there are no accidents, only negligent acts. Check it. Do not let yourself fall prey to a situation where you might feel compelled to squeal, "I didn't know it was loaded!"[/B]

I do not consider it assault or battery or anything close to that to remove a firearm from someone who is NOT carrying out gun safety... especially if he is pointing a gun at me! It is what I would call common sense. What if it were a knife in bed bath & beyond and he were poking it at you or slashing it around in the air? What if it were a fireplace lighter and he stuck it under your elbow clicking it?

If you want to stand there and grin and hope a gun being pointed in your face isn't about to go off, then be my guest, but I won't stand for it. I didn't stand for it during training classes on the line, I don't stand for it at the range with complete strangers down the line and I didn't stand for it from my EX wife - I drew the line. If I were that clerk I damned sure wouldn't let that old man point a gun in my face and pull the trigger! What was that phrase again..??? oh yeah: All guns are always loaded - period!

You fellahs wanna debate Tort law and the fine letter of the law and 'not going over very well' - like I give a rats patootie if everyone in the store "likes" me - or worry about hurting some old codgers feelings, well that's fine with me.

Me? I'll be responsible for myself, thank you very much and I won't have anyone pointing a gun and using the people around them and even more so my face for target practice! Maybe it's just me... I knew of a young soldier on guard duty during the first Gulf War at the docks loading up the Merchant Marine ships. He got bored on sole duty in that little box he had to stay in and did the same thing. Started sighting in on passing trucks and saying 'bang'. Shot some truck driver in the head.

He didn't know it was loaded. He didn't know the safety was off. What in the HELL does it matter now? That trucker had his ***damned head blown 1/2 off. Wait... what was that again? Oh yeah... . All guns are always loaded - period!

I swear I feel like I am arguing with a wall... I just don't understand how ANYONE would just be 'ok' with how he was handling a firearm. :banghead:

****e... I got my pressure up now... I gotta go away from here for awhile.

 

[kermit315]

I never said that the way he was handling it was "ok". I did say it was a mistake by the old guy. actually, what I said was

loaded or not, it was a bonehead move by a guy who has been shooting for years probably

You say you have never seen this type of thing happen, well you must live in some perfect part of the universe, because I have seen it happen, and commented on it, alot, in and out of work. Just because you dont consider it assault doesnt mean a jury wont. Gun safety is not a law. Dont get me wrong, I am not advocating what the guy did, but he didnt break any law, and if you took that pistol the way you said you would, you would be breaking the law.
about the truck:

I think showing up and saying " I want an F150 ext cab sport with power windows, power locks, v8 and sport rims" and getting shown an f150 crew cab, 4wd, tow package and lariat edition, then being shown similar trucks 3 other times, before being shown one that is close to the specs he laid out to begin with is stupid, and was wasting his time. I dont know that that was the specific scenario, but that is how it was laid out. that being said, he bought it from the other dealer, so I am guessing he didnt have the guy out running laps around the lot looking at everything they had in stock, but took him to a general truck that met his requirements. If he had shown up at the place and said "I am not sure what I really want" I could see the first place doing what they had done.

 

[JWF III]

It's hard to believe that such a good thread has gotten so far off track.

But since we're here, it is the salesman's job to give the customer what he/she wants if the salesman can. If I ask for a certain item, show me THAT item. Not something completely different.

As a contractor, if the customer tells me what they want, I give them what they want. If they are not specific, or are unsure of the specifics of what they want, then I give them options.

If I ask for something specific, I probably have a reason for it. The other item you have may be able to do the same thing better, but it's not what I want. And yes I will leave and go somewhere else and buy what I want. (And probably never set foot back there again.)

And let's please get back to the subject at hand. Bring on some more stories.

 

[ColinthePilot]

You stated it nicely JWF III.
I was trying to condense the stories to get the relevant points out without making a 15 minute read out of it.

Kermit, unless he gave the car salesman a stock number, he did not tell him exactly what he wanted since nearly every truck on that lot is different. Since you jumped in here, let's examine what he said:

Quote:
I usually try to avoid being the stupid customer by researching these types of purchases in depth before i even go to the store. I did this with my truck, showed up to a dealership and told the salesman exactly what I wanted and how much I wanted to spend (I quoted low, but whatever).

Showed up at a dealership without calling to make an appointment then dismisses his own dishonesty. Real professional.

Its not dishonesty. Haggling is different. I'm sure everyone here has offered low for a product (probably a gun) expecting to negotiate up a bit.

Quote:
He starts out with a truck 5K over my price range with a ton of bells and whistles I didn't need.

$5K over what? His lowball offer or what he really wanted to spend that the salesman doesn't know?

Thats irrelevant but I was prepared to spend up to 25k on a Nissan Frontier and he was showing me 32k and 35k trucks. I quoted 23K to the salesman. For what he knew, he was showing me trucks almost 50% over my price range. That shows me that HE wasn't listening.

Quote:
He showed me 3 trucks that all differed from my request before we found the one i wanted...So i went across town and bought it from another dealership.

He landed him on the truck he wanted. So he left???? He found the one you wanted! I mean shoot man... why didn't you pee on his shoes for being so danged helpful!

I went to the dealership saying "I want to look at a Frontier SE with the V-6, 4X4, King Cab and the 6-sp manual." Just the transmission eliminated about 75% of the trucks on the lot. He dragged me around the lot for 45 min showing me all the stuff I didn't want. I explained pretty clearly that I did not need the fancy tie-down system, or the upgraded stereo system, or the crew cab, but he insisted on showing me those trucks. When he finally did show me one that I liked, we found the entire back seat wet because they had left the back window open. He tried to sell it to me for MSRP, offering no discounts but promising the shop would wet-vac it. Thats bad customer service IMHO so why would I reward his inability to listen by buying a truck from him?

Even if he DID give him a very detailed description of an exact model then the salesman was simply showing him options. That is what car salesmen are taught to do... take a customer to look at vehicles to make absolutely sure that he puts him on the right car, i.e. he is providing a SERVICE which up to this point he is not getting paid for. He only gets paid if he sells a car.

And for those that just like to go to a lot to mess with them, you are engaging someone trying to make a living under false pretenses. Nice.

In the end, the salesman put him on the truck he wanted... so he left. Real nice.

Just coming into a business and throwing out a lowball number, then leaving in a snit and buying somewhere else is not negotiating. Negotiating is cooperating, working together, making a deal. Think of this statement:
"It is difficult to negotiate where neither will trust" Samuel Johnson. By his own statements Colin obviously did not work to build any trust with this salesman but instead chose to do the opposite and then blame the salesman. Reeeeal nice.

I think in both cases they were just showing him options - trying to make sure the customer knew all the choices they could offer. But after rehashing this a few times, I am curious now about the buyer... how old is he... how did he look... how did he carry and present himself? Was he as cocky and arrogant as his post made him sound? I deal with young buyers too and young men in particular are the biggest pain to deal with because they think they know everything and in actuality they rarely know much.

The problem I have with these salesmen is that they refuse to listen and treat me like I'm stupid. I made my desires very clear in both cases and neither salesman bothered to listen. Had they used that information to find me a comforming product, they would have made the sale quickly, leaving more time to work with other customers. That is why I research these big purchases so much before I even go to the dealer. I don't want to waste my time and the salesman's time learning about the product, which I can do on my own. The salesmen that made those sales were obviously seasoned and knew how to listen to customers and show them what they want, not what the salesman wants to sell. I refuse to be sold anything. I like to be educated so I don't get taken advantage of.

 

[nplant]

'Nother one:

I work part time at the local range (not a gunshop, but close). Yesterday morning, a couple of guys walk in, and I ask the "leader" how I could help them. He says he wants to get a lane and rent a gun.

Me: "Have you shot with us before?"
Guy #1: "Yeah."
Me: "Can I get your driver's license, please?"
Guy #1: "Sure." He hands me his license
Me: Addressing Guy #2 "Have you shot with us before?"
Guy #1: "No, he's never been here."
Me: Addressing Guy #2 again "You'll need to read and fill out our waiver, and sign that you understand and agree to the range rules. I'll need your driver's license also."
Guy #2: "Mexico license OK?"
Me: "No, I'm sorry, I need a U.S.-issued license, or a passport with a U.S.-issued visa. That's the rule."
Guy #1: "What if he forgot his passport?"
Me: "You could always go back and get it. We'll be here all day."
Guy #1: Appears perplexed "So, we can't get a lane? What if he doesn't shoot?"
Me: "That's fine - he can wait out here, and you can go in and shoot, but I can't let him into the range without the documentation I asked for."
Guy #1: Starts trying to "puppy dog" me "Well, it's just that we came a long way."
Me: "Let me make sure I'm not missing something."
At this point, I ask a co-worker to make sure I've told them the right thing. He concurs, and I say, "Well, it's up to you - you wanna go in by yourself and shoot your gun, or do you want your license back?"
Guy #1: "Yeah, we'll just come back another time."

 

[ArfinGreebly]

Squabbling

One more post calling anyone's character into question gets it locked.

We can get back on topic, or I can close the thread for squabbling.

Your call.

 

[bogie]

What about quibbling?

 

[ArfinGreebly]

Quibbling?

You mean, like Vidkun Quibbling?



"Alright, everyone, coffee break's over: everyone back on their heads."

 

[Bart Noir]

Arfin, you don't need Preacherman!

Bart Noir
Having trouble typing with all the giggle/snorts.....

 

[iiibdsiil]

Showed up at a dealership without calling to make an appointment then dismisses his own dishonesty. Real professional.

Who calls to make an appointment at a car dealership? Seriously. Unless you've got one guy that you ALWAYS deal with...



Back on topic, although I'm not a gun shop, I've dealt with my fair share of ignorant and dumb customers. I've realized that the best way to handle their misinformation is "Oh, I haven't heard of that" or "That's cool." Like the kid that told me he was doing to put a twin supercharger on his car...

I always try to be a good customer when I go into gun shops. It seems like everyone is a little biased when you get in there. And although I know some stuff about guns, I figure these guys work at the shop, they probably know more then I do... Probably

Thanks for the laughs guys. I'm trying my best not to be that idiot! I'll be sure to use THR as my reference though... LOL

 

[Wes Janson]

Not to derail this any further, but I'd like to point out that if, as a salesman, I were to physically grab a firearm back from a customer who accidentally swept someone with the muzzle, I'd have no customers and no job. With all respect due to Col. Cooper, it's never quite that simple. In an ideal world, customers wouldn't be stupid, but in such a world we also wouldn't have any need for self-defence to begin with. The compromise I've made is to always, always, always check every weapon before handing it over to a customer (and whenever handed to me), and to thereafter make certain that ammo never comes near it. The only way it's going to become a danger is if deliberately loaded by the customer and discharged. If they're set on doing so however, odds are that their intentions are rather ungood, and my real concern becomes survival rather than safe handling practices.

For all those who're going to trot out the old "Many people have been killed by unloaded guns" line, all I have to say is that I've witnessed ADs and NDs, and I've never seen an unloaded gun discharge. I've seen people mistakenly believe a weapon was unloaded, but for the life of me I've never met or heard anyone tell me of the mythical weapon that can materialize a cartridge into an empty chamber. Unlease the flames of righteousness upon me for my heresy, but that's the reality of it.

 

[TargetTerror]

Werewolf, there is also the issue of assault. Assault is the apprehension of battery. I think it is a reasonable reaction for someone to feel apprehensive about a gun being pointed at them, which could make the old customer's actions constitute assault. Is it likely to stick? Probably not. But the chance is about as likely as the customer who grabbed the gun being charged with battery.

 

[bogie]

Ah, but it's always the "unloaded" guns that "go off by accident." Hence, I assume that everything is loaded... Heck, I even get paranoid about testing triggers...

 

[JWF III]

Where are all the dealers at? After only one day, and there are no new stories. I know there are more dumb***es than that trying to show how much they know about guns.

Let's hear some more stories.