The F.B.I. Knocked on my door yesterday

[Vodka7]

Jeff, your arguments were wonderfully persuasive until you got to quoting the actual laws.

The first one you quoted says you're only breaking the law if the officer is known to you to be an officer. I can open my door wearing a red suit and call myself Mr Claus, but does that make me know to you as Santa? How about if I've got a sleigh parked in my driveway?

The second law you quoted very explicity states you're only breaking the law if you have knowledge of a crime and are trying to conceal it. If I don't have knowledge of a crime, then I haven't done anything unlawful; and yet your admitted response would be to lock me up anyway just to teach me a lesson.

Thank God and the Constitution that our laws require a much greater burden of proof than passing Cop Logic.

Everyone on this forum can go ahead and hate defense lawyers, but cops like you are the reason they're a dime a dozen.

 

[Optical Serenity]

So am I some whacked-out anarchist? Nope. I abide by all written laws that do not violate my natural rights. If a written law does violate my natural rights, I simply don't recognize it; it is null and void in my book.

Unfortunately for you it is not up to you what laws to follow or not. This ridiculous way of thinking is for people who want to end up in prison. If you do not like the laws, petition your elected officials to change them. Otherwise, you absolutely do have to abide by them. Hence why its called "law" and not "choice."

When your boss tells you to do something at work, do you decide if you should or not based on some system you have devised on what work you will do?

I agree with Jeff, and to add to it, all the macho chest thumping guys on here give the rest of us gun owners a very bad name.

 

[SomeKid]

Molon Labe said;



That's not the way it works.....
Let's say that I'm conducting an investigation into a crime that happened in Molon Labe's neighborhood and that other witnesses have told me that he witnessed. It's early in my shift (I normally work 7p-3a) and I don't bother people with routine folllowups past 9pm. I park my marked squad in front of Mr. Labe's house and walk up to the door...knock..knock....

Officer White: Mr Labe would you open the door, I just have a few questions about the altercation in the park last night.

Molon Labe: We have nothing to say at this time.

Officer White: Other witnesses have told us that you were there and may be able to identify some of the other people involved.

Molon Labe: Leave our property at once.

Officer White: Mr. Labe, you are a witness to a crime, if you don't open the door and speak with me you could be arrested for Obstructing a Peace Officer.

Molon Labe: If you wish to make an appointment to speak with us, send us a letter or call us.

Officer White: Mr. Labe, you aren't in any trouble, this will only take a few minutes of your time. Obstructing a peace officer is a Class A misedemeanor, punishable by up to a year in jail and a substantial fine.

Ok Molon Labe, the ball is in your court. See you, through your elected representatives gave me the tools I need to compel you to at least open the door and tell me you were watching a pretty girl walk down the other side of the street and missed the entire thing....
http://www.ilga.gov/legislation/ilc...eqEnd=63800000&ActName=Criminal+Code+of+1961.


Then there is the ever popular obstruction of justice:



Which is a class 4 felony.

It's really your choice, you can open the door and tell me what you saw or didn't see, or I can call backup, arrest you for Obstructing a Peace Officer or Obstructing Justice and take you to jail and you can pay your attorney a few hundred to a few thousand dollars to tell you that you should have opened the door and talked to me for a minute. It's your choice. To me it seems a pretty expensive way of proving you won't let the man put you down.

Jeff

Here Jeff, let me summarize your entire post.

"Speak to me, or go to jail."

No JBTism here, none at all.

I will state this, if a cop wants to ask me some questions, I would help them. If they started acting like the THAT, I would not help them at all.

I am with TallPine (96), we are seeing the true colors of a certain person.

 

[Optical Serenity]

Here Jeff, let me summarize your entire post.

"Speak to me, or go to jail."

No JBTism here, none at all.

SomeKid, that is not at all what he said. You must be very ignorant if that is all you got from reading his post. He even said, just don't answer the door if you don't want to. Why make confrontation?

The real "thugs" I see here are people like you, who are blinded by some paranoia and want to be super macho and bully like. I hope no one in your family ever needs the assistance of law enforcement...because to your luck, somebody just like you will not answer questions to the LEOs, making it more difficult to help your family out. But then, you wouldn't understand that, because you don't even realize what LEOs really do...You think all we do is go out and arrest people...

That would be like saying all the president does is ratify or veto bills...

 

[MadMercS55]

The only interaction I've had with local police is when my vehicle was burglarized. I did have an encounter with ATF agents though, going on about 3 months ago. It involved a Kel-Tec P11 9mm I sold to a local gunshop. They showed up at 9am unannounced. 3 agents, 2 males and one female. Nicely dressed, etc. I answered the door and was taken aback. They wanted to ask questions about the weapon, where I sold it, etc, etc. I asked if I was under arrest at the time, they told me no. I explained to them I didn't feel comfortable speaking to them without presence of council and at least one other witness. They actually understood and gave me contact information to call them back. I phoned my lawyer and we met with the ATF agents, my wife, and my father at a public place. The agents were pretty cool, and it turns out the gunshop had miffed up the paperwork and I was still shown as the current or last owner of the gun. It was recovered at a homicide scene the week prior.

 

[Jeff White]

Vodka7 said;

The first one you quoted says you're only breaking the law if the officer is known to you to be an officer. I can open my door wearing a red suit and call myself Mr Claus, but does that make me know to you as Santa? How about if I've got a sleigh parked in my driveway?

So you're saying that you could convince a jury that a uniformed officer, with a marked squad parked in the street or credentials and a phone call to the station in the case of a plain clothes officer would not be enough to convince you that the person who wanted to speak with you was an officer?

It's defense attorneys that think that would be a defense that cause so many people to end up in jail.

What would be sufficient proof? The secret handshake and matching the decoder rings? Oh I know, I could have the post office deliver all the mail marked police to me like they did in Miracle on 34th Street

The second law you quoted very explicity states you're only breaking the law if you have knowledge of a crime and are trying to conceal it. If I don't have knowledge of a crime, then I haven't done anything unlawful; and yet your admitted response would be to lock me up anyway just to teach me a lesson.

If I have statements from other witnesses that you have knowledge of the crime, that's sufficient probable cause to make the arrest. We'll see who the court believes; you who say you know nothing and the other witnesses who say you were there and saw the whole thing.

Obstructing a Peace Officer fits Molon Labe's response perfectly, for just about any reason I'm there. If I have reason to believe that he does have first hand knowledge of a crime and he gives me that response, the Obstructing Justice fits.

Like I said in an earlier post, if Molon Labe's statement wasn't all that important, I'd shrug my shoulders, shake my head and walk off. When I got back to the office, I'd make an officer safety note so that anyone else who responded to his residence for any reason would be prepared for hostility and a possible violent confrontation.

We've got another thread going about a bookie who was killed by a negligent discharge from a SWAT team member while they were arresting him. I don't know any details as to why they sent a tactical unit out to arrest someone for a non-violent crime.

I will say that once a department starts dealing with someone who responds as Molon Labe said he would, then extra caution is taken when dealing with that person. So an arrest for say a bad check or failure to appear on a traffic charge that normally would be handled by one or two officers, will probably rate 4 officers and maybe the tactical unit.

And then we'd all be jack booted thugs again here on THR because we used overwhelming force to arrest Molon Labe for an unbalanced checkbook or forgetting what day he had to go pay a speeding ticket.

Let me ask all of you this. If you had to go arrest Mr Molon Labe for a minor offense and in every previous dealing you've had with him, he's acted hostile and refused any cooperation, how would you handle it?

Jeff

 

[SomeKid]

I can't understand the paranoia that permeates through this thread. What kind of skeletons are in THR members closets that makes them think every time the police knock on your door, they are there to shoot your cat, beat up your family and haul you off to the gulag?

Jeff

Randy Weaver lost a son, wife, and dog. For what? Because he didn't show up when the government wanted to speak to him. Getting the idea as to why some of us wonder if we might be next? Tyrants and their minions don't care who the victim is, they just create them.

Vicki and the 10 year old boy were not the people the government even wanted to speak with, and they still became worm food (courtesy of the government). One can be totally innocent (I would say the 10 year old boy applies 100%, and I wouldn't fault a Mother for wanting to stay away from the people who killed her son), and the government will still send out its agents (JW, JY) who will gladly do their 'duty'. Without apologies.

You wonder why we view you the way we do, when you act the way you act? It isn't too hard to figure out. You and JY both seem to have an almost gloating and gleeful feeling towards your powers, coupled with no remourse towards using them on a citizen who has not yet been proven to have done something wrong. Go back and re-read your own posts. You both have God complexes.

Oh Optical, finish reading my earlier post. I noted quite clearly I would help as I could, so long as he didn't treat me like garbage.

 

[Jeff White]

It depends on whose ox is being gored

Somekid,
If I was investigating the rape and murder of your mother, and I didn't talk to a material witness who gave me Molon Labe's response when I came to the door, you'd be the first one in line outside the chief's office screaming for my job.

Jeff

 

[SomeKid]

Jeff,

If you went to the door, and they told you they saw nothing, or they didn't want to speak to you, I would not be calling for your job, unless there was some aggrevating factor. (Aggrevating factor possibility 1: They are holding my Mom's head in their hands, and you walk away...) Individual liberties supercede my personal wants.

SK.

 

[Reyn]

An officer would be pushing the limits on arresting someone who refuses to talk to them without some hard evidence that the supposed witness had information to a crime. You would be opening yourself up for some civil suits. Law enforcement is the most damned if do, damned if you dont proffesion there is.

 

[jashobeam]

Should I sell my guns?

Based on the logic of the LEOs posting on this thread I should sell my guns. Since I have never had my home burlgarized or robbed, why should I bother to maintain and possess firearms capable of defending my home and person?

You guys act like you cannot possibly fathom a legitimate reason for someone to desire to be cautious about opening the front door to an LEO (or someone dressed like one) and speaking to him without witnesses in an unobservable location (like many front porches and entry ways). It's as if you can only imagine the officer being YOU, an honest, hard-working, law-abiding peace officer.

Instead, what you seem to have no problem imagining are scenarios in which Molon Labe isn't an honest yet distrustful and cautious citizen who knows absolutely nothing about anything regarding your investigation, but a power-tripping, game-playing obstructionist whose neighbors have testified as to his presence at a crime scene. Do you see the double standard here? Each sees himself as innocent and the other guy as a potential bad guy.

What if you are not a BG, but a real cop, a good cop, on a real investigation in which my name really came up as a possible witness and I really want to help you but I am deathly afraid of being found in the compromising position of being alone with a police officer in a situation where it would be his word against mine?

If a bad man decided to do me harm, not because of the skeletons in my closet or because of anything I own or have done but simply because my front door and entry way were hidden from view, then it would be a bad idea for me to open the door for him. I'm sure no one here will argue against that. What if this man were a serial killer who determined that certain features of my residence were a weakness sufficient to make me easy prey? He has no grudge against me. I am not a drug-dealer or user. I have no really expensive belongings. I am, for whatever reason, someone who fits the profile of his victims. What if that serial killer were also a cop, a real cop, on a real investigation in which my name really came up as a possible witness? He originally came to my house to question me, but after seeing my house and visualizing it as a beautiful crime scene-to-be he now intends on doing me harm.

Is there an LEO who is a good enough sport to post a scenario demonstrating how we can politely and legally avoid vulnerably exposing ourselves to the serial killer cop that happens to come to innocent Molon's door?

So much on THR is about being prepared and cautious and ready. We don't know who the BGs are. EVERYONE here will agree with that. But even suggest that a cop could be a BG, or that a BG could be a cop and some here will call that a ridiculous paranoid fantasy.

 

[Biker]

Well, the way I got it figured, there's more than enough trouble out there in the world with my name on it just waiting for the right time to jump up and say "Howdy!"
Why look for more? If a cop knocks on my door, I'll answer it. Thanks to a recent ruling stating that a cop can look through your house once in it for 'threats', I won't invite him in, but I won't be rude either.
I'll go outside and talk. What's the harm? Because me and my Bros have a good rapport with the local LEOs, I've been able to slide on a ticket or three that could have gone either way. I've had a couple voluntarily testify, on their own time, at two different trials (civil suits) on my behalf.
I'm not so sure that things would've turned out so well for me if I had a rep as an ass with these guys.
Cops are just people like you and me, for the most part. They remember being wronged and they remember who does them right.
In a job where they catch a lot of crap, they appreciate being treated like regular folk by a guy, especially when he's on an outlaw scoot and they're expecting him to be a violent penis
. It's just common sense, folks. Least that's how it works around here.
Biker

 

[TallPine]

Even though there are some "issues" with the local sheriff's office (like we have an appointed acting sheriff right now - long story), I'm really not concerned about them. They are too understaffed - and busy doing things like trying to corral loose cows and sheep on the hiway - to go out and hassle innocent people. If a deputy shows up in my driveway un-announced, chances are he is there to ask directions

But some folks do (or may) live in jurisdictions where the cops have a bad reputation. So I sort of understand where they are coming from.

Then there are the feds ... They didn't even bother coming out to ask me about my ex-next-door-neighbor, so I guess I would have to be pretty wary. If they do not clearly state the purpose of the visit and it is clearly about someone else, then I have nothing to say without an attorney present. I can't imagine what they would ever be after me for (except maybe "dissent" ) but remember Martha Stewart

 

[Peet]

When your boss tells you to do something at work, do you decide if you should or not based on some system you have devised on what work you will do?

On a lighter note (Grid knows, this thread needs it) I used to do that all the time. I either had one boss giving me directly contradictory instructions or multiple managers giving me directly contradictory instructions.

So, yeah, I pretty much did whatever I wanted since there were SOOOooo many options to choose from.

P.

 

[hammer4nc]

This case, from Illinois court of appeals, appears to support molon labe's position regarding passive vs. active response to a police demand to open the door, yes?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Because the police did not have a warrant, defendant cannot be held to have obstructed the police by failing to open the door in response to their demands. In Hilgenberg, we held that a person who passively invokes his or her fourth amendment right to refuse a warrantless entry cannot be charged with resisting or obstructing the police. Hilgenberg, 223 Ill. App. 3d at 290-94. In Steagald v. United States, 451 U.S. 204, 68 L. Ed. 2d 38, 101 S. Ct. 1642 (1981), the Supreme Court held that the fourth amendment requires the police to have a search warrant to enter the premises of a third party in order to apprehend the subject of a felony arrest warrant. An arrest warrant is sufficient to allow the police to enter the home of the person named in the warrant if they have probable cause to believe the person is inside (Payton v. New York, 445 U.S. 573, 63 L. Ed. 2d 639, 100 S. Ct. 1371 (1980)), but the police would need a search warrant to enter a third person's property to apprehend that same suspect. Steagald, 451 U.S. at 212 -14, 68 L. Ed. 2d at 45-46, 101 S. Ct. at 1648. Thus, if the police need a search warrant to enter a third person's property to apprehend a suspected felon for whom they have an arrest warrant, we believe they would also be required to have a search warrant to enter a third person's property to apprehend a juvenile runaway.

We find United States v. Prescott, 581 F.2d 1343 (9th Cir. 1978), instructive. In Prescott, the defendant was convicted as an accessory after the fact for assisting a suspected felon to hinder or prevent his apprehension. The court held that the fact that the defendant would not let the police enter her apartment without a warrant to apprehend a person suspected of mail fraud could not be used as evidence against her. The court explained its reasoning as follows:

“When *** the officer demands entry but presents no warrant, there is a presumption that the officer has no right to enter, because it is only in certain carefully defined circumstances that lack of a warrant is excused. [Citation.] An occupant can act on that presumption and refuse admission. He need not try to ascertain whether, in a particular case, the absence of a warrant is excused. He is not required to surrender his Fourth Amendment protection on the say so of the officer. The Amendment gives him a constitutional right to refuse to consent to entry and search. His asserting it cannot be a crime, [citation]. Nor can it be evidence of a crime. *** One cannot be penalized for passively asserting this right, regardless of one's motivation.” Prescott, 581 F.2d at 1350-51.

Thus, we hold that defendant's refusal to open the door did not constitute resisting or obstructing the police.

http://72.14.207.104/search?q=cache...ction+police+warrant&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=2
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Jeff White, in what state do you enforce laws?

 

[erh]

As an former LEO, all I have to say is "Good Grief"; The state of affairs & indecisiveness today is amazing; just do what you feel is right at the time, and take responsibility for the decisions you make... Always be safe, but really try to avoid paranoia. On the other hand "Just because you're paranoid does'nt mean they're not out to getcha!" Please take no offense from these statements; they're only simple opinions! Respectfully, (erh)

 

[Jeff White]

hammer4nc,
Where in this post did anyone demand to enter and search the property? All they want to do is talk with Molon Labe. He can come out on the porch and talk. There is no search involved. No one is demanding entry here. Sorry your case does not apply to the issue being discussed here.

Try again...........

Jeff

 

[David W. Gay]

Evidently, Officer White does not consider the act of threatening someone with arrest, to be "demanding entry".

Originally Posted by Jeff White, thread post #142:

No one is demanding entry here.

Originally Posted by Jeff White, thread post #87:

Officer White: Mr. Labe, you are a witness to a crime, if you don't open the door and speak with me you could be arrested for Obstructing a Peace Officer.

From the Illinois case quoted by hammer4nc, thread post #140:

Thus, we hold that defendant's refusal to open the door did not constitute resisting or obstructing the police.

 

[Biker]

David W. Gay...

Contextualize your snippets from Jeff White's posts, then try again. I've been a 1%er most of my life and I appreciate honesty on both sides of the line. I ain't seein' it here.
Biker

 

[Moondoggie]

I guess I'll never make it in the tin foil hat brigade.

I guess I'm the only one outside of LE that thinks a citizen has a duty to cooperate with LE. If I know something germane/material to their investigation, then I have a duty to convey that information honestly and completely. I do not have an obligation to shield another (Friend/relative/acquaintence/stranger) from their wrongdoing by lying or witholding evidence. Don't do the crime if you can't do the time.

If I think that the LEO's involved are acting/proceeding inappropriately, then I would consult with my atty and have that atty present during questioning. I would make time to meet with LE at their place of business as soon as my atty was available. And yes, I actually HAVE an atty that I can call "My atty"...but not because of any wrongdoing on my part. (Estate stuff, and somebody who jacked me out of $13K in the trucking biz.)

"Serial killer cop"...that must be some GOOD dope you're smoking; or waaaay too much TV in your schedule.

As far as letting any LEO's inside my residence without a warrant...politely but firmly the answer is no. If it's -10* and the snow is moving horizontally, then I'd be happy to sit in the front seat of their vehicle and talk to them. The LEO's in my neck of the woods make a whole $10/hr..professionalism is NOT their hallmark. Letting one inside to exercise his perogative to "Clear" my house for possible threats and therby see the inside of my open safe is not gonna happen.

Being a member of society has responsibilities as well as rights.

 

[Old Dog]

Moondoggie said

I guess I'm the only one outside of LE that thinks a citizen has a duty to cooperate with LE. If I know something germane/material to their investigation, then I have a duty to convey that information honestly and completely.

Guess you didn't read the whole thread then; I said that in at least two of my posts. It's civic responsibility, community service and common courtesy. All of which are necessary to promote a healthy, functional and friendly community. Plus, as I noted -- how 'bout the ol' Golden Rule? Wouldn't you want citizens to come forward to either clear/defend you or provide information if you were the victim of a crime?

 

[Moondoggie]

I apologize, Old Dog....I was mostly summarizing the negativity. It was speaking a lot louder than the voice of reason.

I'm on your side.

 

[Jeff White]

David W Gay,
You need to go back and re-read the entire thread. Start with post #1:

It was around 9:30pm in Jersey and this guy knocks on my front door. So I looked through the windows and he held a badge up to the window. Well I don't use my front door so I have a DVD rack blocking it. I asked him, can I help you? He said he would like to have a few words with me, and if I could open the door. I told him to go to the side door. So I met him at the side door. I open the door and there are 6 guys standing there. I though Thats it!! My dumb ass falls for the oldest trick in the book and I was going to get robed.

The main guy, he had his badge on his belt. The other 5 had there badges around there neck. They Dress real nice. The main guy came up to the door and ask If I lived here. I said yea. He asked if anyone els lived here. I said my wife. I noticed the other 5 guys huddling around one another. They were looking at a sketch not a picture. I asked the main guy what this was about. He asked How long have you lived here? I told him about 6 months. He looked a little surprised.

He asked me if I new whear the previous owner of the house is living now. I told him no, but I have been getting a lot of mail for him that I have been sending back to sender. I new that a few letters I got for him were Summons to appear in court. He said thanx for your help and he started to walk away. I closed the door and watched them from a window. One of them wrote down my Licens Plate # and then they left in this Big Suberban I think. Nice Truck.

Here is a question. If six guys are at your front door saying they are the FBI, and you have no idea what an FBI badge looks like. Would you answer the door with a gun on you?

Where do you see anything about the FBI agents demanding entry to Kermit911s home?

Then in post #14 Molon Labe says this:

Who cares?

Do not open the door. Tell them to call you or send you a letter. Then decide if you want to meet with them. If you do want to meet with them, do so on your terms, not theirs.

Sorry to sound so paranoid; such is not my intention. But a prudent person should automatically assume anyone with a badge is a JBT unless proven otherwise.

Which started the current debate.

At no time did anyone in this thread state that anyone was demanding entry to anyone's home. The issue is answering the door. Opening the door and stepping out to be identified is not demanding entry. Demanding entry would be demanding Molon Labe open the door and allow me to go in.

If you actually read the case hammer4nc posted, you'll find that the officers had an arrest warrant for a third party that they believed was in Hilgenberg's home. They entered the home to search for the wanted man. The court held that the arrest warrant was not sufficient grounds to enter Hilgenberg's home and that they should have obtained a search warrant. The court also held that Higenberg did not obstruct the officers by refusing them entry without a warrant.

In kermit911's post no one asked to come inside the house. Here is my imaginary conversation with Molon Labe from post #87:

Molon Labe said;

Quote:
Remember, do not let the JBTs intimidate you or control you. Stay in the driver's seat. Meet on your terms, not theirs.

That's not the way it works.....
Let's say that I'm conducting an investigation into a crime that happened in Molon Labe's neighborhood and that other witnesses have told me that he witnessed. It's early in my shift (I normally work 7p-3a) and I don't bother people with routine folllowups past 9pm. I park my marked squad in front of Mr. Labe's house and walk up to the door...knock..knock....

Officer White: Mr Labe would you open the door, I just have a few questions about the altercation in the park last night.

Molon Labe: We have nothing to say at this time.

Officer White: Other witnesses have told us that you were there and may be able to identify some of the other people involved.

Molon Labe: Leave our property at once.

Officer White: Mr. Labe, you are a witness to a crime, if you don't open the door and speak with me you could be arrested for Obstructing a Peace Officer.

Molon Labe: If you wish to make an appointment to speak with us, send us a letter or call us.

Officer White: Mr. Labe, you aren't in any trouble, this will only take a few minutes of your time. Obstructing a peace officer is a Class A misedemeanor, punishable by up to a year in jail and a substantial fine.

Tell me where I demanded entry into Molon Labe's home? Opening the door and coming out to identify yourself is not the same as the officer entering the house.

The US Supreme Court has ruled that the police can ask someone to identify themselves and it is not a violation of their 4th amendment rights. Those who refuse are charged and held for Obstructing a Peace Officer . If it turns out they are wanted, and that's why they refused to identify themselves, they are then charged with obstructing justice which is a felony. And no, giving us your name is not a violation of your 5th Amendment rights against self incrimination if you are wanted on a warrant.

Let me ask you this, if I'm at Molon Labe's house and I have an arrest warrant for someone who's last known address is Molon Labe's address, and Molon Labe gives me his pat answer through the door, would I be violating the law if I called for backup and entered his house to serve the arrest warrant?

You would think that by reading the case hammer4nc posted, that we couldn't enter the house. But if you read the entire decison it would say that an arrest warrant is sufficient to enter the house if it is the wanted person's house and we believe him to be inside. Since Molon Labe decided to play it his way, the response most likely would have been to call for backup, and enter the house by force and conduct a search for the wanted person. Just another reason why opening the door and stepping out to speak to the officers to find out why they are there is probably the best course of action.

Now I know that everyone is going to get really enraged at that, but it would be legal and I doubt that there would be any way to collect civilly given the fact that Molon Labe's home was the last known address of the wanted person, Molon Labe refused to talk with the officers and acted in a hostile manner, the officers would be acting in good faith based on the information available to them.

Jeff

 

[David W. Gay]

Biker,

To be honest, I do not understand what you ask. I've re-read my post, and the original posts quoted, and it seems self evident to it's point. The point being, that simply refusing to talk to an officer of the law, under the circumstances described, should not constitute "obstructing police". The Illinios case quoted a few posts back makes that point quite clearly. Now, I have no idea if that case legally applies to anyhwere other than Illinois, but it does address the central topic of the posts referenced.

The be a bit more wordy:

In one post, Officer White relates a hypothetical interaction between him & Mr. Labe. Durring said interaction, Officer White threatens Mr. Labe, twice, with arrest, if Mr. Labe does not open his door and speak with him.

I consider such a threat to be a, "demand". There is no other way to take it.

Yet, in another post, Office White states that "No one is demanding entry here". Well, that is the crux of this entire debate. Either we have a right to refuse to speak to an officer of the law, or we don't. And, if we do have a right to refuse to speak to an officer - particularly under the circumstances described in post #87, then the officer does not have the right to arrest people for such refusal, and should not be making such threats.

That was the honest point I thought I was making.

Now, in the interest of "honesty", the original post of this thread does not even mention a threat of arrest. It mearly asks, "If six guys are at your front door saying they are the FBI, and you have no idea what an FBI badge looks like. Would you answer the door with a gun on you?"

My answer to that question is yes, simply because I alwasy have a gun on me at home.


Dav- Self-Evident - id

Carry on!

PS: Also, I'm almost afraid to ask, but just what is a, "1%er"?

 

[Biker]

David W. Gay...

In answer to the original question, I always have a gun on my person. It appears that we miscommunicated along the way. I'm not sure how, but there were a lot of "what if's" that were presented.
A 1%er is, as popularly defined, an 'outlaw biker'.
No offense intended..
Biker