Door to door sales guy?

[chrlefxtrt]

Could he be charged with attempted sexual assualt if he came to the door with a d!ldo in his hand?
I personally think that he is within his rights to be holding a firearm in a safe manner on his own property, in his home none the less. I know from experience that my rural law enforcement would not give a crap and if the guy called them to complain they would say to watch where he goes next time.

Last Christmas one of my landowners where some of my gas wells are located house was broken into and all of their christmas presents were stolen. I was the first person on the "scene" because I was making my route. I pulled up to the female landowner (wife) balling in the middle of the section line a 1/2 mi from her house. She was talking to the Sheriff Dept and a deputy was on the way. I followed her down to her gate to wait with herand to check on our company property. When the deputy got there he thanked me for staying with her and asked if they came back and I was in the area if I would not mind coming and checking on things because her husband was a truck driver and the department is over strecthed ( he also really liked my 1911 ). I said sure. (Now remember I am a civilian in a rural area of Oklahoma not a police officer). Then about a week later I pulled up to the guys trying to get back onto the property, as they fled I called the Sheriff and they asked me to follow them so the nearest deputy would know where they were going and get he plates. They got away because I wasn't willing to risk a law suit if the crashed, but I got their tag # and they were found with stolen property in their posession.

Things work differently in the sticks, especially when it is dark, and they are on your property 20 to 30 miles from the nearest town or cop. The husband even chased me down one night not realizing who I was because he saw someone open and close his gate. He apoligized and I accepted the next day we waved at each other. Manyof my landowners feel good that a "nice young man like me" is around their property when they are not because people often try to steal cattle or whatever which can be these people's lively hood (the police don't mind either, and the only thing I have ever been told is "if you catch someone in the act of theft or trespassing hold them for us and if they are an immedeate dangerous threat SHOOT THEM" - God's honest truth

 

[granuale]

For Jorg,

Here's the alternate version for you.

So I was looking to score a quick hit on somebody for my daily heroin fix. It had been 12+ hours since I got right and I was startin' to get pretty tweaky. On my last stay in county some brother was talkin' about a score he made out in the sticks where lots of old people live and there is no way neighbors can see each others houses. This ain't no cheap neighborhood and the ladies probably have a good bit of jewelry - just what I needed, easy to grab and conceal, high value, and easy to pawn for cash for my junk.

Well I find just the right place - middle of nowhere with no pesky neighbors to see, expensive place. Lights out and can't see any cars - so far so good. I don't wanna get shot so I always knock on the door before kicking it in. (So much harder here than when I lived in Howard County Maryland where only the cops have guns) Anyway I give a good hard knock to make sure no John Q Homeowner will ruin my day and this guy answers the door. Damn!! What to do..... Screw it - I have that tire iron stuffed down my pants maybe I should just hit the guy on the head and get the stuff. I REALLY need to fix soon!! I give him some crap about magazines and see he's got a gun! *** - I'm outta here!!!! Looks like I'll go back to town and try and break open a newspaper box for some cash. Hope they didn't empty this weeks quarters yet....

 

[Guy B. Meredith]

I'd rather see the gun than your boxers...

 

[granuale]

You people seem to think that having a gun in your hand when opening the door means you feel threatened. I don't feel threatened at all, I am just prepared to deal with a threat should one arise.

Oh yeah, Beachmaster this is what it looked like in my kitchen today.... Eat your heart out.

 

[chrlefxtrt]

You got crabs

 

[Jorg Nysgerrig]

For Jorg,

Here's the alternate version for you.

Hmm, not bad, but a little dull. I wasn't really feeling the intense cravings of a heroin addict. My alternate version has the sales guy as an advanced scout for a gang of homosexual biker rapists with a collective fetish for men from the East Coast and a penchant for the wide open deserts of the southwest. They also were cannibals.

 

[Prince Yamato]

There are still door to door sales people. Kids make pitches for magazine drives (and by kids I mean high-schoolers as well). Certain knife companies (Cutco, comes to mind) do in-home demonstrations. Avon still calls, I believe. Also, 2 days ago, the Time Warner guy came to my door after he was looking at cable boxes and asked if I wanted a limited-offer upgrade. There's also Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses. Why the hell would you DRAW a gun on someone who wasn't a threat?

You weren't tactical or wise. You were a discourteous ass to someone doing their job.

The gun on the hip was enough. What if the salesman had a CCW? He would have had probable cause to shoot you.

 

[texas bulldog]

The gun on the hip was enough. What if the salesman had a CCW? He would have had probable cause to shoot you.

WHAT!?! hahhhahahhhahaaahhaahahaa...

that is the most ridiculous thing i've ever read on this site.

 

[Prince Yamato]

that is the most ridiculous thing i've ever read on this site.

How is it ridiculous? It's true. The poster threatened the salesman. The salesman's life WAS in immediate danger. The salesman wasn't doing anything wrong.

 

[granuale]

Good luck in court with that story Prince.

 

[tnieto2004]

You people seem to think that having a gun in your hand when opening the door means you feel threatened.

Again, He didn't have a gun in his hand when he opened the door .. The OP drew his weapon as the sale's pitch was being told to him ..

I think this fact has been re-stated more than once

 

[Prince Yamato]

Good luck in court with that story Prince.

Umm... I'd actually win the case, because the OP drew his weapon. It'd be justified defense of person. The burden of proof would be on me due to castle doctrine (in certain states), but the fact that the guy drew a gun on a salesperson would be enough.

 

[granuale]

Prince, the burden of proof is always on the person who shoots in self defense. It is called an affirmative defense to homicide and includes burden shifting onto the defense. You would need to prove you REASONABLY believed you were in fear of imminent bodily harm or death.

And no, unholstering the weapon would doubtless not be enough given the totality of the circumstances the OP mentioned.

 

[tnieto2004]

granuale,

First you were saying he just had the gun in his hand while opening:

You people seem to think that having a gun in your hand when opening the door means you feel threatened.

And now you are talking about unholstering a weapon:

And no, unholstering the weapon would doubtless not be enough given the totality of the circumstances the OP mentioned.

What point are you trying to defend? Are you saying that unholstering the weapon is the same as holding it when you open the door? You are bringing up two different circumstances for the same event..


And when someone presents their gun by taking it from the holster, you don't think that may bring fear to the sales man?

 

[Lonestar49]

Yea, the drawing out wasn't the better form..

...

Next time, have your gun in hand, hidden behind you, as you open the door just a tad, enough for eye to eye contact, hear what he, she, they, has/have to say, to the point you're not buying it, believing it, don't care, and best, as you stated, after dark, sales, is not welcome.. period.

That way, you've not "drawn out on him, even if not pointed at him, you drew a gun, as opposed to already having it rdy, and much faster, IF, in a case where once you opened the door, he, they, whatever, rush in on ya, you're legally armed, rdy to go, and legal, with the fastest possible action available to you, as opposed to "having to draw out", after the fact..

Other than that, you did ok in my book, and tell your unknown buddy down the street to take you off his buddy list.. lol

That's just an old sales, gimmick, line.. that if they did sell someone down the street, with that name, or nobody, it still works on a few but, not for most..

But that's how they are trained to sell.. (after school, during your dinner time, etc.) "your neighbor, Fred, etc., bought" which is somehow supposed to make you feel comfy.. not.

For every 100 No's, they get 1 yes.. or better.


Ls

 

[geophysicishooter]

Another $0.02 from the FNG

Jorge said:

...after losing his job as a janitor in a factory due to Katrina...

...I ain't so used to seeing guys with guns...

WRONG. There isn't a chance in Howard County, MD that a guy who's lost his job cleaning toilets anywhere that was affected by Katrina and who's now peddling magazines in Arizona ain't used to seeing guys with guns. I'm sorry. But your attempt at establishing pathos for your antagonist went straight out the window with that one.

So Enough for levity. As has been aptly pointed out by previous posters, we're tallking about BFE, Az where God only knows who could be knocking on your door at any hour but where it is illegal to refuse someone access to water if they ask for it (someone else may want to comment on that because that's second hand knowledge for me at best). For all the OP knew, it was someone who'd been lost in the desert and needed a drink to keep from dying* (not that he made that arguement however). If I were living in rural Arizona, given the geo-political atmosphere out there, very few steps to protect oneself could be considered out of line, particularly on one's own property. Castle Doctrine definately applies. The "salesman's" opening line had to do with the use/non-use of deadly force? I'd probably be a little suspicious. Both feet are on my property, your butt belongs to me and if it comes down to it, guess what? you're not going to get to tell your side of the story to the cops, the judge or anyone but St. Peter or whoever keeps the gates down below. That may be cavalier but any one of you who goes around strapped knows that when the fur starts flying, politeness and formality are the first to go out the window.

But did the OP give himself away? I would probably have had my hand on the grip and probably would have even had the muzzle clear of the holster, but I don't think I would have shown my gun to the guy I may or may not have to shoot before I absolutely had to. The CHL instructor I took my class from told us that the point of no return is 21 feet or 7 yards. If someone who's threatening you (say, with a knife) is within 7 steps of you, in a dead sprint he can get to you before you can draw, aim and pull trigger. By the OP's accounts, the 'salesman' was within just a few feet. "Kenpo" will attest to the fact that's far closer than a motivated attacker needs to be to hurt you before you could react.

btw, I thought it was kempo?

Edit: *meaning: he doesn't really have the option of not answering the door if my understanding of the law is correct Or that anyone out there could compell him to open the door under false pretense.

 

[granuale]

tnieto,

I wasn't saying the OP did have the gun in his hand when opening. In the language you quote there, I was commenting on previous posters discussion of answering the door while armed or not and where the gun is. I was saying that it seemed to me many posters thought it was not a good idea generally to open the door while holding a gun. I think it is a great idea. If the person on the other side of the door is intent on nefarious activity, a gun in the hand will have some use whereas a holstered gun might be worthless if you cannot draw and shoot in time.

You people seem to think that having a gun in your hand when opening the door means you feel threatened.

In the following quote I was referring to Yamato's assertion that the OP's behavior was sufficiently threatening to justify the "salesman" drawing and shooting the OP.

And no, unholstering the weapon would doubtless not be enough given the totality of the circumstances the OP mentioned.

What point are you trying to defend? Are you saying that unholstering the weapon is the same as holding it when you open the door? You are bringing up two different circumstances for the same event..

No, they are not the same thing.

And when someone presents their gun by taking it from the holster, you don't think that may bring fear to the sales man?

Yes I do think that might make him afeared. I would say it certainly will do so. I do not however, think it represents reasonable fear of death or imminent bodily harm which is the standard that will be used to judge his actions if he shoots.

 

[tnieto2004]

I do not however, think it represents reasonable fear of death or imminent bodily harm which is the standard that will be used to judge his actions if he shoots.

So then what would be the purpose of drawing the weapon?

 

[Prince Yamato]

Prince, the burden of proof is always on the person who shoots in self defense.

Not in states with castle doctrine and the OP was in his own home.

 

[Jorg Nysgerrig]

WRONG. There isn't a chance in Howard County, MD that a guy who's lost his job cleaning toilets anywhere that was affected by Katrina and who's now peddling magazines in Arizona ain't used to seeing guys with guns. I'm sorry. But your attempt at establishing pathos for your antagonist went straight out the window with that one.

Thanks, I'll consider your valuable insight before I go to press.

 

[kingpin008]

+1. Thanks for inferring that the place I've lived all my is life Hell, btw.


Classy.

 

[granuale]

Not in states with castle doctrine and the OP was in his own home.

Yamato, you were talking about the "salesman" being justified in shooting the homeowner. Castle doctrine has nothing to do with the "salesman" doing the shooting it would ony apply if at all to to the homeowner/resident.



tnieto, you are confusing the people. I'm a bit exhausted with this thread, but I will go on if you wish. For the sake of clarity lets please now only refer to the "salesman" or the "resident".

You say

So then what would be the purpose of drawing the weapon?

I don't know what you mean. When I articulated the imminent fear standard, we were talking about Yamato's claim that the "salesman" would have been justified in shooting the resident. I don't think he would have been justified at all in doing so. As for the "resident", I don't think anybody needs a "good" reason for being armed while opening a door to their home. And by armed, I mean gun in hand.

 

[revjen45]

I answer the door with a Steyr in my pocket or in my hand behind my back. I prefer not to advertise to low lifes that there is a gun in the house. If he said you brandished, you are under no obligation to confirm his version. If it was in a holster it's quite credible that's how he even saw it. Probably not a good idea to have displayed it in the absence of demonstrated necessity.

 

[tnieto2004]

I don't think anybody needs a "good" reason for being armed while opening a door to their home. And by armed, I mean gun in hand.

Again, He didn't have a gun in his hand when the salesman came to the door.. He drew his weapon (The OP told us this) while the salesman was talking .. What was the purpose of pulling the weapon after the salesman began talking?? What purpose would that serve other that to bring imminent fear of harm to the salesman.. Please explain..

 

[granuale]

tnieto,

All fear is not "imminent fear of death or grievous bodily harm". I think it would induce fear that if "salesman" made any false move he would be shot, and not fear that "resident" would shoot because he had to pause The Unit on his tivo.

Only under the "imminent fear" standard would the "salesman" be justified in shooting - I claimed, and still do that "salesman" would not be successful in arguing that the resident in this story gave the "salesman" reasonable fear of death or imminent bodily harm by unholstering resident's weapon as the OP described.