The F.B.I. Knocked on my door yesterday

[dman4384]

Showing up unannounced removes the chances that witnesses will cook up a story with the subject. If you think that's arrogant, you are entitled to that opinion.

JY

Nah, thats not arrogant. There is other behavior and posturing that I call arrogant that is self evident. Just showing up to ask questions isnt what Im referencing.


Let me ask you this: If an agent paid a suprise visit to a potential witness, and they indicated a willingness to talk, but preferred to do so when their attorney is present and suggested a date/time (or asked that they coordinate the date time with their attorney) is that something that is normally accomodated?

Of course Im not asking about unusual or dangerous circumstances...but someone friendly, willing to talk, but prefers to have counsel when talking on the record....basically acting in good faith. (Im thinking of what happened to Martha Stewart, where she was nailed for the content of her conversation with the feds, rather than a previous crime)

Personally Im very grateful for the efforts of law enforcement and I have a good relationship with them (personal and professional). But sometimes I just hear things that I don't like. If the request of a reasonable accommodation is met with an attitude of "playing games" and misuse of the courts, I guess thats one of those things. (Now if they are truly playing games and not acting in good faith, thats a bit different)

 

[GTSteve03]

Did you not get it the first time?

Pray tell...how many times has this happend to you?

Well, I'm still alive, so it obviously hasn't happened to ME yet.

But then again, I'm innocent, why should I care? I mean, if it doesn't directly affect me I should be fine with it, right? Go bug my neighbor in the middle of the night, domestic spy all you want as long as you don't listen to ME.

 

[cz75bdneos22]

Never open the door to someone who displays a badge. Ever. I don't care who they claim to be... LEO, FBI, CIA, BATF, ABC, XYZ. I don't care if they're legit or not. I don't care if you're innocent or guilty of anything. It doesn't matter. Don't open the door. Instead, tell them the following:

1. We have nothing to say at this time.
2. Leave our property at once.
3. If you wish to make an appointment to speak with us, send us a letter or call us.

#3 is very important, as it will give you time to verify the inquiry and decide whether or not you should speak with them, whether or not you should call an attorney, etc.

Remember, do not let the JBTs intimidate you or control you. Stay in the driver's seat. Meet on your terms, not theirs.

+1

 

[M-Rex]

Well, I'm still alive, so it obviously hasn't happened to ME yet.

But then again, I'm innocent, why should I care? I mean, if it doesn't directly affect me I should be fine with it, right? Go bug my neighbor in the middle of the night, domestic spy all you want as long as you don't listen to ME.

So...by your own admission, you really don't have any idea what you are talking about?

Seek help.

 

[roo_ster]

Over half my encounters with LEOs have been negative, meaning they were dishonest and/or abusing their authority. Since this is the "High Road," and engaging in (so-called) "cop-bashing" is the surest way to get a thread locked, I won't elaborate.

And I'm sure your pretty little innocent self didn't do anything to encourage it. You're pure as the wind driven snow, right?

Try again. This wouldn't be one of your little militia hang-ups, would it?

I dare you to elaborate...if indeed you really can.

M-Rex, just like individuals can be bad/good/indifferent, organizations run the gamut.

One place I grew up had the most arrogant & obnoxious SOBs as sheriff deputies. Almost every encounter I had with them was negative. If one were on fire, I wouldn't even...well you know. You didn't have to be a dirtbag to get some pretty nasty treatment from them. All you had to do was be in their vicinity and meet their "let's scr-w with 'em" criteria. So, though I think ML is a bit over the top, I can understand his attitude is one that was earned/learned.

OTOH, every encounter with the local officers where I currently reside has been positive. They get my cooperation and appreciation...and I don't mind the portion of my taxes that support them & their organization. Same goes for all the federales I have encountered.

---------------

I don't usually answer the door gun in hand, though it is handy. When I have spoken with local officers, I figure I have a porch for a reason.

 

[Johnny_Yuma]

Generally, someone

Let me ask you this: If an agent paid a suprise visit to a potential witness, and they indicated a willingness to talk, but preferred to do so when their attorney is present and suggested a date/time (or asked that they coordinate the date time with their attorney) is that something that is normally accomodated?

Of course Im not asking about unusual or dangerous circumstances...but someone friendly, willing to talk, but prefers to have counsel when talking on the record....basically acting in good faith. (Im thinking of what happened to Martha Stewart, where she was nailed for the content of her conversation with the feds, rather than a previous crime)

Personally Im very grateful for the efforts of law enforcement and I have a good relationship with them (personal and professional). But sometimes I just hear things that I don't like. If the request of a reasonable accommodation is met with an attitude of "playing games" and misuse of the courts, I guess thats one of those things. (Now if they are truly playing games and not acting in good faith, thats a bit different)

acting as you describe is welcome to make an appointment to meet me with his attorney. Of course, the first question I ask during the appointment is "When was the last time you spoke with the subject?" It's the guys who want to obstruct, jerk us around, and play games that get grand jury subpoenas. If a witness wants to talk with their attorney first or was just on the way out to pick up the kids from school, we will usually make an appointment. Others just want to play games (read back through this thread and see if you can spot any game-players). Inevitably, they aren't able to make the appointment or they go and chit-chat with the subject before the appointment . After doing this job for a few years you learn to differentiate the attitudes and language indicative of a helpful witness from one who is giddy at the prospect of taunting the government. There are a lot more of the latter than you could possibly imagine.

JY

 

[cz75bdneos22]

Hmm...yeah. Paranoid just about sums it up. Yes. I feel sorry for your family.

yeah, i feel sorry for the family of people who have been murdered by felons dressed as LEO too.

 

[tellner]

Hard call to make, but it looks like you made the right one.

Would I talk to the police if they didn't have a warrant and hadn't made an appointment? Maybe. It all depends on what they want and how they act. Would I let them into my house? Almost certainly not.

If these guys were trying to serve a warrant on a suspect it would hardly make sense for them to phone ahead for an appointment.

"Excuse me, sir. We have a warrant for your arrest and would like to bring you in. Could you please be at home next Tuesday at 9:45 AM?"

 

[cz75bdneos22]

Molon Labe - you really need to relax....

Rouge Cops - how many have you encountered in your lifetime???

I have no problem with you wanting to protect your family - where do you live Baghdad....


12-34hom

could make the same argument for having a gun for PD...yet you have one, yes?

 

[cz75bdneos22]

Over half my encounters with LEOs have been negative, meaning they were dishonest and/or abusing their authority. Since this is the "High Road," and engaging in (so-called) "cop-bashing" is the surest way to get a thread locked, I won't elaborate.

LEO's are people too. there are good/bad people in all walks of life..LEO's don't have the market cornered when it comes to bad guys...

 

[Geno]

The FBI stopped at my college office 2 weeks ago.

The FBI stopped at my college office 2 weeks ago, but it was on the one day per week that I do have off. No problem, he left his card, talked with a colleague who he also wanted to question and indicated that he would contact me shortly after 2:00 p.m. Next day, I entered the college, retrieve my mail--right on top an beautiful FBI business card. I turned 6 shades of envy-green! Wish I were FBI!!! Anyhow. I went to my office and worked. At 2:10 p.m., the agent called. He wanted to speak with me regarding a former student who was interesting in being an agent--time to investigate. He had a schedule of open-ended, patterned-behavior, descriptive-interview questions to ask me regarding the student, as well as some simple numeric questions, i.e. attendance.

It was no big deal, and much less than when I was a high school principal dealing with MSP, FBI and BATF regarding a former student who was blowing up crack houses in Detroit and elsewhere in the USA (1989-1990). Now, that was a different story entirely, but also a different post.

In both cases, the officials came to my office during day-light hours. I must admit that the scenario as presented gives me pause. Factually, I see all sides here, and that is why I just read every single post--for the insights. I truthfully cannot say I would do A or B. Note how I described the questions: PBDI, it's a form of interview (patterned behavior descriptive interview). Not what WOULD you do; rather, what HAVE YOU DONE? Past tense, verifiable by self and others (has an inter-interviewer reliability in excess of .80)!

For certain I would be unnerved! 6 to 1?! But, bare in mind, that I was the victim of 2 attempted home invasions, 1 attempted kidnapping and 1 actual (albeit non-violent) home invasion. I see life through a different prescription of lens than most people! This all occurred between the ages of 5 and 10, then an additional attempted assault/home invasion at about age 17ish while working on the car in the garage (previously posted).

What WOULD I do? I can only guess. I would NOT open the door! Fact-firm! My outer door is ALWAYS locked, even in day light hours. I would, and have worn/do wear my firearm in plain view, holstered to answer the door. It's my home, and I am an honest citizen.

I will NOT, NO LONGER invite LEOs, etc. in, because I have been told by an LEO in the past that permission was ALREADY given. Okay, and you cannot revoke it? Specifically, about 10 years back a lazy landlord needed the rent withheld to force he to paint over exposed, lead paint. He requested the police "inspect the condominium". Psych! Being young and dumb, I asked if it were legal, ... similar to a previous post, the LEO stated threateningly, "Yes, no warrant needed because the owner requested it!" Blah, blah, blah. Well, they lied to me. If you rent; you "own" to the extent that they canNOT enter without an appointment with 24 hours advanced notice! I sued and received $250.00 from the judge for each home invasion by the police and landlord!!! That $750.00 came in handy, thank-you all the way to the bank. Then, the judge backed off $250.00 because in the first case, I ". . . allowed the LEO's entry." What the poopie?!?!?!

Okay, so where does all of this stuff leave me now, much older, much more experienced, the owner of my very own castle?!

I would ask,

"Is this a life/death matter? Is there clear and present danger? If not, may we schedule an appointment during day-light hours, because I feel extremely uncomfortable opening my door to 6 strange men in the dark."

Now, if that sounds unreasonable, I would question the "soundness of reason" of the person who could criticize me.
Just seems to make sense. Sorry if I rambled, but this isn't an easy one! This was a great post.

I must note, that some people in this thread have been just about as rude as I have ever witnessed here. Remember, we all "live here together". And, it is called "The High Road". Such rudeness and personal attacks just make us all look bad to visitors. Or, as I teach my research students as they prepare for their research oral defenses:

"It's okay to attack the idea; but, it's never okay to attack the person!" We should keep that in mind.

Doc2005

 

[Jeff White]

Johnny Yuma is much nicer then I might be....

Molon Labe said;

Remember, do not let the JBTs intimidate you or control you. Stay in the driver's seat. Meet on your terms, not theirs.

That's not the way it works.....
Let's say that I'm conducting an investigation into a crime that happened in Molon Labe's neighborhood and that other witnesses have told me that he witnessed. It's early in my shift (I normally work 7p-3a) and I don't bother people with routine folllowups past 9pm. I park my marked squad in front of Mr. Labe's house and walk up to the door...knock..knock....

Officer White: Mr Labe would you open the door, I just have a few questions about the altercation in the park last night.

Molon Labe: We have nothing to say at this time.

Officer White: Other witnesses have told us that you were there and may be able to identify some of the other people involved.

Molon Labe: Leave our property at once.

Officer White: Mr. Labe, you are a witness to a crime, if you don't open the door and speak with me you could be arrested for Obstructing a Peace Officer.

Molon Labe: If you wish to make an appointment to speak with us, send us a letter or call us.

Officer White: Mr. Labe, you aren't in any trouble, this will only take a few minutes of your time. Obstructing a peace officer is a Class A misedemeanor, punishable by up to a year in jail and a substantial fine.

Ok Molon Labe, the ball is in your court. See you, through your elected representatives gave me the tools I need to compel you to at least open the door and tell me you were watching a pretty girl walk down the other side of the street and missed the entire thing....
http://www.ilga.gov/legislation/ilc...eqEnd=63800000&ActName=Criminal+Code+of+1961.

(720 ILCS 5/Art. 31 heading)
ARTICLE 31. INTERFERENCE WITH PUBLIC OFFICERS

(720 ILCS 5/31‑1) (from Ch. 38, par. 31‑1)
Sec. 31‑1. Resisting or obstructing a peace officer or correctional institution employee.
(a) A person who knowingly resists or obstructs the performance by one known to the person to be a peace officer or correctional institution employee of any authorized act within his official capacity commits a Class A misdemeanor.
(a‑5) In addition to any other sentence that may be imposed, a court shall order any person convicted of resisting or obstructing a peace officer to be sentenced to a minimum of 48 consecutive hours of imprisonment or ordered to perform community service for not less than 100 hours as may be determined by the court. The person shall not be eligible for probation in order to reduce the sentence of imprisonment or community service.
(a‑7) A person convicted for a violation of this Section whose violation was the proximate cause of an injury to a peace officer is guilty of a Class 4 felony.
(b) For purposes of this Section, "correctional institution employee" means any person employed to supervise and control inmates incarcerated in a penitentiary, State farm, reformatory, prison, jail, house of correction, police detention area, half‑way house, or other institution or place for the incarceration or custody of persons under sentence for offenses or awaiting trial or sentence for offenses, under arrest for an offense, a violation of probation, a violation of parole, or a violation of mandatory supervised release, or awaiting a bail setting hearing or preliminary hearing, or who are sexually dangerous persons or who are sexually violent persons.
(Source: P.A. 92‑841, eff. 8‑22‑02.)

Then there is the ever popular obstruction of justice:

(720 ILCS 5/31‑4) (from Ch. 38, par. 31‑4)
Sec. 31‑4. Obstructing justice.
A person obstructs justice when, with intent to prevent the apprehension or obstruct the prosecution or defense of any person, he knowingly commits any of the following acts:
(a) Destroys, alters, conceals or disguises physical evidence, plants false evidence, furnishes false information; or
(b) Induces a witness having knowledge material to the subject at issue to leave the State or conceal himself; or
(c) Possessing knowledge material to the subject at issue, he leaves the State or conceals himself.
(d) Sentence.
(1) Obstructing justice is a Class 4 felony, except as provided in paragraph (2) of this subsection (d).
(2) Obstructing justice in furtherance of streetgang related or gang‑related activity, as defined in Section 10 of the Illinois Streetgang Terrorism Omnibus Prevention Act, is a Class 3 felony.
(Source: P.A. 90‑363, eff. 1‑1‑98.)

Which is a class 4 felony.

It's really your choice, you can open the door and tell me what you saw or didn't see, or I can call backup, arrest you for Obstructing a Peace Officer or Obstructing Justice and take you to jail and you can pay your attorney a few hundred to a few thousand dollars to tell you that you should have opened the door and talked to me for a minute. It's your choice. To me it seems a pretty expensive way of proving you won't let the man put you down.

Jeff

 

[hammer4nc]

Community policing at its finest...

So... now comes forward an officer threatening innocent citizens with arrest for not opening their door (absent warrant). Nice. Officer Jeff White has a big, self satisfied smile on his face as he wastes resources and community relations goes in the toilet. Probably cause for a commendation?

We had a similar case recently here in Raleigh...it ended up on the 6 PM news:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Woman In Trouble With Law After Questioning Officer's Identity
73-Year-Old Cited For Misdemeanor Obstructing & Delaying

POSTED: 7:41 am EDT July 28, 2005

RALEIGH, N.C. -- What are you supposed to do when a police officer knocks on your door at night? Officials with the Raleigh Police Department say in a particular case, the answer was obvious, but an elderly woman who had her doubts got charged with a crime.

Marie Venezia

Marie Venezia, 73, was cited for obstruction when she questioned a police officer's identity.

Marie Venezia, 73, lives by herself in her Raleigh home. Last Tuesday night, a Raleigh police officer knocked on her door and asked her about damage to a neighbor's fence.

"I said 'I don't know what you want me to say. I don't know who it was.' He said, 'You know who it was.' I said, "I don't know who it was." He said you do," she said. "And at that point, I began to wonder if this guy really was a policeman because I didn't think officers acted like that."

Venezia told the officer she was going to call 911 to confirm who he was.

"He said, 'Don't close that door.' I said I am going to close it and then I went and called 911," she said.

When Venezia came back, the officer charged her with misdemeanor obstructing and delaying, issuing her a ticket.

"The exchange that occurred between the officer and the resident was unproductive to the point that the officer felt the charge was necessary," said Jim Sughrue, a representative with the Raleigh Police Department.

There have been a number of prior cases in Wilson and Raleigh about people posing as law enforcement officers. Plus, a WRAL investigation found a Web site selling badges. However, the Raleigh Police Department said those are unfair comparisons because in this case, the officer was in full uniform and his patrol car was in plain sight.

Raleigh police officials say when an officer is in full uniform and the car is visible, just cooperate. WRAL checked with other agencies and most say it depends on the situation. The Chapel Hill Police Department actually encourages double checking.

http://www.wral.com/news/4779724/detail.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
They didn't post a followup to this story...my bet it was dismissed. However, if the citizen wanted to "play", as J Yuma puts it, the 73 yo lady could have claimed chest pains, called an ambulance, and later filed police harassment charges which would be settled out of court, likely. The knife cuts both ways.

So, according to Officers Yuma and White, they'd be playing within the rules, as did the officer above. But, putting aside officer machismo for a second, is this the road you want to go down? Has asserting your dominance helped the situation; with respect ot the initial investigation, or community relations? Has it conserved financial and human resources of the legal system? I think not.

 

[hammer4nc]

Found the followup...

Raleigh Police Have Change Of Heart Over Woman's Citation

POSTED: 7:00 am EDT July 29, 2005
UPDATED: 7:23 am EDT July 29, 2005

RALEIGH, N.C. -- The Raleigh Police Department decided to void the citation given to a woman who got in trouble after double-checking an officer's identity.

Marie Venezia
Marie Venezia, 73, was cited for obstruction when she questioned a police officer's identity.

A police officer knocked on Marie Venezia's door at 9 p.m. last Tuesday night to ask her about damage to a neighbor's fence.

In the middle of the conversation, Venezia told the officer she wanted to call 911 and verify who he was. When she came back, the officer gave her a ticket for obstructing justice.

The Raleigh Police Department told WRAL that the department will learn from the experience and use it in training sessions.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Raleigh police didn't even have the cojones to let this case go before the judge. Question: when this case is "used in training sessions", will it be cited as an example of good officer conduct? Class? Bueller? Yuma? White?

 

[Koobuh]

Uh huh.

I'm wondering if some of the self-claimed public employees in this thread are quite cognizant of just whose pleasure they continue employment under.
A citizen who has committed no crime has no cause to go out of their way to accomodate an LEO at their door without a warrant if they do not wish to do so. That is what separates a citizen from a subject.
The fact that citizens are often compulsed to comply by invasion of their property by SWAT teams, etc. is firm evidence of just how far we have fallen as a nation.

Public employees like LEOs earn their money working for us, and SHOULD have little issue with complying by the LAW, which they are sworn to uphold. I would have no problem with going to a grand jury to explain myself, and subsequently billing the LEO's office for my lost time as well as possibly suing them for harrassment.

 

[MNgoldenbear]

Molon Labe said;

That's not the way it works.....
Let's say that I'm conducting an investigation into a crime that happened in Molon Labe's neighborhood and that other witnesses have told me that he witnessed. It's early in my shift (I normally work 7p-3a) and I don't bother people with routine folllowups past 9pm. I park my marked squad in front of Mr. Labe's house and walk up to the door...knock..knock....

Officer White: Mr Labe would you open the door, I just have a few questions about the altercation in the park last night.

Molon Labe: We have nothing to say at this time.

Officer White: Other witnesses have told us that you were there and may be able to identify some of the other people involved.

Molon Labe: Leave our property at once.

Officer White: Mr. Labe, you are a witness to a crime, if you don't open the door and speak with me you could be arrested for Obstructing a Peace Officer.

Molon Labe: If you wish to make an appointment to speak with us, send us a letter or call us.

Officer White: Mr. Labe, you aren't in any trouble, this will only take a few minutes of your time. Obstructing a peace officer is a Class A misedemeanor, punishable by up to a year in jail and a substantial fine.

Ok Molon Labe, the ball is in your court. See you, through your elected representatives gave me the tools I need to compel you to at least open the door and tell me you were watching a pretty girl walk down the other side of the street and missed the entire thing....

Then there is the ever popular obstruction of justice:

Which is a class 4 felony.

It's really your choice, you can open the door and tell me what you saw or didn't see, or I can call backup, arrest you for Obstructing a Peace Officer or Obstructing Justice and take you to jail and you can pay your attorney a few hundred to a few thousand dollars to tell you that you should have opened the door and talked to me for a minute. It's your choice. To me it seems a pretty expensive way of proving you won't let the man put you down.

Jeff

Well, Jeff, in your example, since he did respond to you and did not prevent you from asking your questions, it seems that he did not engage in obstruction. And by arresting him for not opening the door, one might consider that harrassment. I suppose you could claim that his refusal to give 'real answers' is suspicious and thereby creates probable cause, but that's pretty thin. Most LEOs I know of would only push an issue like this if they were certain it was critical, rather than to just throw their weight around, though we do have a few inexperienced or immature officers who might do so.

 

[Molon Labe]

A few things, Jeff:

1. I am under no legal obligation to speak with you under any circumstances.

2. If an LEO approaches someone (who otherwise is minding their own business), and that person refuses to speak, they are not guilty of obstruction of justice. A person is only guilty of obstruction of justice when they go out of their way to actively interfere with an LEO's duty.

3. If you approached our home and refused to leave under my orders, I would have you arrested for trespassing.

 

[Lupinus]

Nice Jeff.

It is exactly threats like that which make people loose respect for police.

It is obstruction if I activly hinder an investigation, ie. hide evidence. Asked, answerd, just because you don't like the answers that isn't my (or in your Molon in your example) problem, it's yours. Asked and answerd so tough cookies you can now get off my doorstep before I have you arrested for tresspassing (not that you fellow cops would likly do it :banghead: ) and sue your department for harrasment, go ahead and arrest me, it just adds a few zeros onto my lawsuit.

I'm fine talking through the door but you start macho cop bs by demanding I open the door or treaten me with arrest you can be on your way.

 

[M-Rex]

Molon Labe said;



That's not the way it works.....
Let's say that I'm conducting an investigation into a crime that happened in Molon Labe's neighborhood and that other witnesses have told me that he witnessed. It's early in my shift (I normally work 7p-3a) and I don't bother people with routine folllowups past 9pm. I park my marked squad in front of Mr. Labe's house and walk up to the door...knock..knock....

Officer White: Mr Labe would you open the door, I just have a few questions about the altercation in the park last night.

Molon Labe: We have nothing to say at this time.

Officer White: Other witnesses have told us that you were there and may be able to identify some of the other people involved.

Molon Labe: Leave our property at once.

Officer White: Mr. Labe, you are a witness to a crime, if you don't open the door and speak with me you could be arrested for Obstructing a Peace Officer.

Molon Labe: If you wish to make an appointment to speak with us, send us a letter or call us.

Officer White: Mr. Labe, you aren't in any trouble, this will only take a few minutes of your time. Obstructing a peace officer is a Class A misedemeanor, punishable by up to a year in jail and a substantial fine.

Ok Molon Labe, the ball is in your court. See you, through your elected representatives gave me the tools I need to compel you to at least open the door and tell me you were watching a pretty girl walk down the other side of the street and missed the entire thing....
http://www.ilga.gov/legislation/ilc...eqEnd=63800000&ActName=Criminal+Code+of+1961.


Then there is the ever popular obstruction of justice:



Which is a class 4 felony.

It's really your choice, you can open the door and tell me what you saw or didn't see, or I can call backup, arrest you for Obstructing a Peace Officer or Obstructing Justice and take you to jail and you can pay your attorney a few hundred to a few thousand dollars to tell you that you should have opened the door and talked to me for a minute. It's your choice. To me it seems a pretty expensive way of proving you won't let the man put you down.

Jeff

Jeff, you're throwing your pearls before swine. You aren't going to get through to people like Molon Labe because people like that simply hate law enforcement officers. They live their lives in such paralyzing fear that they see every law enforcement officer, good, bad, or indifferent, as villians. Their fear is their security, in a perverse way. It's the blanket they wrap themselves in. They use broad generalization as a way to avoid dealing with the fallacies of their world view. It's all they have, and they will hold onto it with a white-knuckle grip.

To the 'Molon Labes' of the world, cops are evil in the same way that firearms are evil to the Feinsteins, Schumers and Boxers of the world.

Sometimes, you just have to cut your losses and move on. He just plain and simple hates cops.

 

[Old Dog]

M-Rex, you may have just hit the nail right square on the head with this one:

To the 'Molon Labes' of the world, cops are evil in the same way that firearms are evil to the Feinsteins, Schumers and Boxers of the world.

A bit hypocritical, isn't it?-- for gun-owners to decry the pathetic state of affairs wherein all gun-owners are tarred with the same brush ... labeled as fringe-element, paranoid, object-worshiping, trigger-happy losers ... yet so many gun-owners seem so willing, so much of the time, to label all law enforcement officers in exactly the same fashion.

Frankly, I still believe in the concept of "civic duty," where if I am witness to a crime or can possibly assist law enforcement in the legitimate investigation of a crime, I will voluntarily come forward to provide a statement. This act generally does not take up too much of a citizen's valuable time (although, to be sure, if one must go to court to testify in a criminal trial, it may become a monumental hassle).

How much trouble is it for a citizen to acquaint themselves with the ID credentials of his/her local law enforcement agencies, keep a dispatch phone number handy (to call the station for verification if necessary)? ... I'd much rather talk to law enforcement agents on my own turf than have to be subpoenaed for some routine crap, necessitating a trip downtown to the station or office, when matter could be cleared up over a cup of coffee at my kitchen table in a civilized, adult manner. Sheesh, usually, these situations can be cleared up in a few minutes anyway, and sometimes, one actually learns something interesting or makes useful contacts.

 

[TallPine]

Jeff, you're throwing your pearls before swine. You aren't going to get through to people like Molon Labe because people like that simply hate law enforcement officers.

No, it's worse than that ....

You've taken someone who could see both sides of the issue, and have knocked his respect for LE down several notches

 

[12-34hom]

Having a bad experience with a police officer and one with a "rouge cop" are two differing acts altogether.

As far as cop bashing goes, let's here your experiences with these so called "rouge cops" Molon Labe. If your rights were truly trampled or your personal safety was compromised to the point of your life being placed in jeopardy by law officers - let's hear it.

Jeff White merely states the law where he works and what ramifications it has to those if you ignore it. In Iowa = Interference with official acts.

M-Rex has a valid point, there are those no matter what circumstances will never give law enforcement the benefit of the doubt. Most have a problem with authority to begin with and project this bais on all peace officers they encounter, for whatever reason.

Instead try = judging each individual on his or her merits on any complaint or actions taken.

Going through life with such a narrow vision of any profession is totally parochial.

12-34hom.

 

[Molon Labe]

You aren't going to get through to people like Molon Labe because people like that simply hate law enforcement officers.... He just plain and simple hates cops.

I regularly train with a fulltime sheriff's deputy. He's a moral, upstanding, honorable man, both on and off duty. I am confident he would be taken back by your assertion.

I am a strong supporter of peace officers who abide by the Construction and respect individual rights. I have absolutely no respect for anyone (LEO or otherwise) who:

- Lies
- Has no respect for the Constitution
- Has no respect for individual rights
- Abuses their authority

Yes, I am a JBT's worst nightmare.

 

[Working Man]

Knocking at the door...

That would already be an issue because it means they jumped my gate.

 

[Old Dog]

Molon Labe, you're really contradicting yourself now. First you said,

But a prudent person should automatically assume anyone with a badge is a JBT unless proven otherwise

and now you say

I am a strong supporter of peace officers who abide by the Construction and respect individual rights.

So, you have no problem pre-judging ALL law enforcement officers -- they're automatically JBTs until they meet your strict standards ... they MUST prove themselves to be supporters of the Construction [sic] and respect individual rights.

Just don't complain when you, as a gun-owner, are also pre-judged and must prove yourself to someone who automatically assumes all gun-owners are morons (or whatever that person's equivalent for a gun-owner of a JBT is).

The display of attitudes such as yours is a good reason gun-owners are often viewed with suspicion by those outside the gun culture, and also go a long way in fostering further the divide between law-abiding gun-owners and law enforcement personnel who might otherwise prove sympathetic to our cause.