Door to door sales guy?

[kingpin008]

I disagree. If I come to your door, and you answer with a pistol in your hand, I'm going to feel threatened. Wouldn't you?

This has nothing to do with where either of us live, it has to do with perception. I can guarantee you that the average citizen would be more than a little wary of an individual who answers their door like that, and would call the cops.

Don't forget - we're dealing with what the individual on the other end of the meeting sees, and how they interpret it. To you and I, guns aren't as big of a deal, and carrying one on us in our homes may not be a big deal. To others, it's absolutely terrifying. Thus, a call to the cops could very easily result in a brandishing charge.

And to go further - it is indeed being displayed in a threatening manner. By displaying it, you are sending the message that "I have a gun, and if you do not comply, I can/will use it." That's pretty damn threatening. I don't care if it's pointed at my head or you're holding it muzzle-down with the slide back - by bringing it into play, you've made it known that it is a factor in how the event continues to unfold. It is a warning, and a warning that can and WILL easily be interpreted as a threat.

 

[Knotthead]

No, I actually wouldn't, unless an overtly threatening motion or statement was made. We don't piss in our shorts at the mere site of a gun here.

If you come to my door after dark and I am not expecting you, I will answer the door armed. As I will probably be dressed in sweats and a t-shirt by that time, that will mean holding a gun in my hand. And as long as the exchange remains courteous and civil I would do nothing that would be legally defined as brandishing. Unless you were to misconstrue the events to the sheriff, he will not either. As I said, this is Kentucky, and rural Kentucky at that, not Merry Land.

 

[kingpin008]

Dude, get over the "we don't do X here" mindset, because it's ultimately false. Ok, I get it - you live in an area that's familiar with guns. That doesn't mean a damn thing, when someone who ISN'T comes to your door and you have one in your hand. Maybe a new neighbor, maybe a traveler passing by, and maybe, just MAYBE - a native-born kentuckyian (please excuse any misspelling) who just ISN'T a gunnie! You can't just say "oh, we're cool with guns here, it's not an issue" because that's not true!

I'm not trying to antagonize you, please believe that. I have no reason to. And once again, drop the "Merry Land" stuff - I may live here, and it may be generally anti-gun, but even you must realize that NOT EVERYONE IS THAT WAY. Seriously. It has nothing to do with the discussion at hand.

But whatever - I'm glad you feel confident in the fact that you'd be untouchable if someone happened to be scared by a man with a gun in his hand answering the door. I hope you're right, and things are ok for you. I just happen to think otherwise. Dig?

 

[DMK]

I was on the opposite side of this one about 20 years back. I was installing satellite dishes, was running very late, got to a customer's house (on a long dirt road, all by itself, way back in BFE and then a couple miles past) around dusk. Me driving a beat up mid-seventies pickup, wearing dirty jeans and t-shirt, probably looking pretty scruffy. I pull up, get out start walking to the house, only to be met by an equally scruffy looking man with a 12ga. He was making it pretty darn clear he wasn't expecting or wanting company. Me: No problem, I'll take your satellite disk back to the shop. Him: Sata-what? Oh!, (shotgun disappears, big smile, two kids come out of nowhere) come on in! Can I get you a beer? It goes over here....

Funny thing was, it didn't even phase me at the time. Just another day of work in rural Appalachia.

 

[kingpin008]

Haha. See, I can understand that. And I'm not trying to cause fights over this, but when I read a post from someone that tells me that it's not brandishing because X and Y didn't happen, or whatever, it bothers me because they don't understand that if the person who calls the cops says the right things, it can be SO MUCH WORSE than brandishing ever could be. The cops generally believe the first one to call them, and especially so if it's some poor, hysterical salseman or whatever that just encountered a man with a gun in his hand when they answered the door.

Sure, guns might be old hat in whatever location you're in, but guess what folks? NOT EVERYONE SHARES THAT POINT OF VIEW! amazing, isn't it? That's ALL I'm trying to say with my posts. Discretion should ALWAYS come first.

 

[98C5]

Open carry is legal here in Virginia, so answering your door with a visable holstered weapon is not brandishing. Yes, of course every part of the country is different. Even here in Va, what might be fine to do in my area may be frowned upon in a different jurisdiction.

In response to the OP, I feel unholstering the weapon was not warranted at that time. If the guy had an object in his hand or some seedy friends hanging around, yes. However, I don't know his area or crime data there either so it is just an opinion if it happened to me here.

YMMV.

 

[Knotthead]

It seems like the problem here is perception versus reality. Does one's perception of a threat supercede the fact that none was made. Brandish is defined as:

1 : to shake or wave (as a weapon) menacingly
2 : to exhibit in an ostentatious or aggressive manner

Simply holding one in one's hand doesn't meet the criteria. This would be equivalent to having it in a holster, which may have been the case if you had come to the door during the daytime.

Are we still on topic? I forget.

 

[Chris B]

Kingpin, Beachhead: I'm from Howard County, Maryland as well.

King- could you cite the brandishing law? I can't find anything specific besides the NRAs compilation regarding posession and transfer. And are you by any chance the lucky owner of a Mac in .45 that I met in WV a while back?

I have been pulled over for speeding and suspicion of DUI (I was sober, I dropped my phone and swerved a little bit looking for it) with several rifles in the car. The officer was not concerned with the weapons. I only mention this to note that not all HCPD officers are as anti-gun as our legislators.

Beachhead: The only error I think you made was opening the door to a person you don't know. I used to live in Normandy Woods Apartments off of Route 40 in HC. This neighborhood is notorious for drug dealing. One night I heard a very authoritative, almost police like, knock on my front door. I looked out the peephole and couldnt see anyone. I asked " who is it?" and got no response. I sat back down and right away there was another knock. I got my 870. I went back to the door and looked, saw nothing, and said I can't see you, show yourself. Their response was another knock. I racked the shotgun while looking out the peephole. Two young males in baggy clothes and ski masks ran up the stairs and out the door. The police came an hour later and I told them what happened and they said to call if I had any more problems. It's certainly OK to show your weapon to someone that breaks in your front door, the law is less clear when you opened the door for the "attacker".

the only two things my wife and I miss about Maryland are real crab cakes with Old Bay, and Bergers chocolate top cookies!

I'm in Tampa now and I second that.

 

[kingpin008]

Chris - No, I can't cite the law as I don't currently have it in front of me. And for the record, I could be entirely wrong, but from everything I've been told by both criminal lawyers and police, a charge such as brandishing is one that is extremely subjective, and can prove troublesome for the individual accused of it as it's basically their word against the word of the complainant.

And no, Chris - I was not the owner of any "Mac in .45 that you met awhile back". I take that to mean that you were threatened by an individual with such a pistol at some point? If so, why in the world would lead you to think it was me? I fail to see the connection.

Also - I said nothing about cops being anti-gun in Maryland. What I did say was that Maryland is in general an anti-gun state, which is true. We have some of the toughest gun laws in the nation, behind the obvious states like Cali, Mass, and NY. I'm glad the officer didn't give you a hard time, since you indeed weren't doing anything warranting a hassle about guns. Once again, I fail to see your point.

 

[Chris B]

No, King, I just saw that you were 26 and from HOCO and thought you might have been someone I met that let me shoot his Mac, I didn't mean to offend. I was not saying that I was threatened by you or who I thought you were. Oops. The other part about the cops wasnt directed at you either, sorry.

 

[texas bulldog]

here we go again...

kingpin: you see...the thing is, in many jurisdictions [not in maryland, of course] THERE IS NO SUCH CRIME AS BRANDISHING. hard to believe, i know, but it is not a universal law in all states. so while the OP's actions may or may not fit your state's definition of brandishing, many states do not have any prohibition against displaying a weapon on your own property. and from what i've been told about AZ, i'm guessing that's the case there. so regardless of whether the OP's actions were wise, it is highly unlikely that he was at risk legally.

sorry...i just get tired of the brandishing calls. it's just like the thing about auto knives. every time they come up on here, someone says they are prohibited. actually, they are illegal in some jurisdictions...not all.

 

[mb419]

Great response! In your own house, do what you want. I would have answered the door with the gun already by my side. I just love the rest of the reponders here, so scared to actually be ready to use their weapon. Typical.

 

[sixgunner455]

Jorg - there is no daylight savings time in AZ. We don't do that stuff here.

The OP was perfectly within his rights in AZ, legally, to brandish his weapon and order someone off his property. It is specifically legal to do so.

Kenpo, there is no tactical problem either. You may be the fastest man alive at your art. I commend you. I enjoyed Kenpo when I studied it. But someone lifting a pistol to a retention position (at the hip) and firing it is pretty durned fast, too, especially if they practice it. If you do not know the person in front of you, you do not know how fast they can do that, any more than they know how fast you can strip that gun out of their hands. Certainly faster to get a shot off, if the guy is going to jump you, if the gun is already in your hands.

 

[tnieto2004]

The OP was perfectly within his rights in AZ, legally, to brandish his weapon and order someone off his property. It is specifically legal to do so.

Can you show a law correlating with your statement? That you can brandish a weapon and order someone off your property .. And not vice versa .. The OP brandish a weapon BEFORE asking him off his property .. He also opened the door which showed that he could have avoided the confrontation all together if he felt he was in danger of being harmed by the sales man .. The salesman was not breaking in .. Merely talking to him ..

 

[Clipper]

I love how some yahoo from across the other side of the country will tell someone from another state what is and is not legal. I have answered my door to a knock in the middle of the night (I was watching Johnny Carson) with my blackhawk cocked to find some guy flashing a badge and claiming to be a cop, wanting to use my phone to call in some noisy kids in the park across the street. I told him there was a pay phone at the open gas station he could see from my porch. He started to argue until I slid the gun (pointed upwards) from behind the door where he could see it, and told him to beat it. Funny, the black helicopters and guys in ninja suits seem to have lost their way, as I never saw any of them. And the rowdies that liked to raise hell in the park found somewhere else to hang out after I took that pistol and my coach gun out to the front porch to clean them while I watched them playing basketball one day. The quality of the young men using those courts took a remarkable improvement after that...I guess I should be glad my state still respects the rights of the property owner to do his thing on his own place. BTW, the only way it would be illegal for the OP to have done here would be if he actually pointed a gun at the guy without being directly threatened, which he did not do, so what's all the excitement about?

 

[CNYCacher]

I'm glad it turned out well. . .
I don't feel that you handled it well by drawing your gun. I don't want a debate and I don't wish you to be insulted, but I do feel I would be doing you a disservice to disagree with your actions in silence.

 

[tnieto2004]

Pulling guns (showing guns in the case of the police officer needing a phone) on magazine salesmen and police offers that need help .. I think it does more harm than good for the RKBA..

 

[Lurp]

I don't know, but to me it seems like the sales man was up to no good. First he comes up to your house at night to "Sell" you something. Then when you answer the door he mentions a neighbor you do not know of and mentions you shooting him. It almost seems as if he was casing your house for a potential robbery. May have been knocking on the door to see if you were home and when you answered pretended to be a sales person and then tried to identify if you were unarmed for a possible break in or robbery later on. Also the part about no car and him walking around a rural area seems fishy. May have been some other guys waiting in the shadows for the signal...Just never know and it's better to be safe than sorry.

Since it is his property I feel it completely justified to do as you please as long as you are not putting someone else in danger. If I want to walk around my property with a fire arm on my belt or in my hand I beleive I have every right to. He may have prevented a robbery or may have just scared off a sale man, but either way he did not get robbed and it's better to be safe than sorry.

 

[tnieto2004]

If I want to walk around my property with a fire arm on my belt or in my hand I beleive I have every right to.

I agree.. It is the drawing of the weapon which brings the problem


The OP,

I stopped him in mid sentence, informed him that whoever Chris was, must not really know me well, pulled my pistol from its holster

 

[Guy B. Meredith]

To get back to the basic situation, how many honest to goodness door to door magazine salespeople--real salespeople--are out there today? In the Orange County area or SF Bay area of California I'd say just about nil.

For maybe 30 or so years the only door to door magazine sales people I have heard about were crews of randomly selected individuals carted around by one independent group or another. I know many were not on the up and up.

In one case they had a demented type male who took umbrage when a little old lady shad the audacity to say "No".

In another case two young ladies worked me when I was about 26 and ripped me off for a year's subscription to two magazines about 1971. If I'd had anything of value one of them would probably kept my attention while the other did a tour of the apartment.

I have a long and accurate memory and because of the above I accept NO unsolicited calls to my phone or door. NONE. And I am rude about informing violators.

 

[tnieto2004]

So because there is not many salesmen going door to door (And some are sketchy) you should un-holster your gun when they come by? Why even open the door?

Not trying to be offensive .. I just don't understand the purpose of drawing your weapon for intimidation factor to someone who has shown no aggression..

 

[realityscope]

What if you open the door with your gun visibly in your hand, cant exactly unhoslter on the guy now...

If someone rings the bell at my house late, im usually in boxers and have no where to put a holster so it just has to be in my hand, and my opinion is if you dont like the sight of seeing someone open a door with a gun in hand then you prob shouldnt be ringing doorbells at night unannounced.

I once opened the door pretty late one night with pistol in hand to see a DEA agent on my front porch. They had raided a house on my street that was being used to hold drugs( I dont live in a bad place that was just a problem this year in suburban atl) and he wanted to ask me some questions. Point being he was not at all surpirised or concerned and after i politely said one moment to put it away he was invited inside to have a lengthy conversation on what i had noticed lately

 

[granuale]

Why would you ever open the door to an unknown person without a gun on/in your hand? That is how home invasions happen people. Your 100 guns in the safe don't mean squat when you open the house to danger.

As far as the brandishing charge, this is a good lesson in how to deal with the police. Remember they ARE NOT your friends. So, creepy guy comes to the door. You answer door with gun in hand. Guy sees gun and leaves and calls police. Police knock on door. You answer. They say "did you pull a gun on somebody". You close door. Case closed. Don't discuss it AT ALL with them.

 

[tnieto2004]

I don't think anyone here has said you shouldn't have a gun on you (Unless I missed that) .. The point was that as the guy was giving him a "sale's pitch" he un-holstered his weapon to show the guy he had a gun .. The salesman was not showing aggression or being threatening.. Even strategically it was a bad idea to show him you were armed ..

 

[colubrid]

why would you open the door with a gun in your hand?

If I see its a salesman I usually give them the coutesy of breifly explaining their wares. If I am too tired or I feel suspecious, I just ask "WHO IS IT?" and if its someone I don't know, I just tell them "NO THANK YOU!" If its trouble I will know soon enough and i will have the advantage of the door being closed..

No reason in the world to answer the door with a gun in your hands. If you feel that threatened call 911, retreat from the door and keep your gun pointed at the locked door.