Truth in accuracy reporting (Rant)

[R.W.Dale]

I'm so sick and tired of hearing about all these outlandish accuracy claims folks like to make about their guns and the belief that if a gun doesn't shoot sub MOA it's a piece of junk with some kind of problem. In this rant I would like to outline a few guidelines that would go a long ways to making internet accuracy claims much more helpful rather than being pure hyperbole

ONE

Don't make any kind of claim of accuracy on a 3 shot group, You're only 3/5th of the way to a useful indication of potential accuracy with a 3 shot group. Just about any rifle will luck itself into great looking 3 shot groups from time to time. Even the junkiest rifle stands chance of "missing" in the same direction thrice however this likelihood is greatly reduced with a five shot group. which leads me to no2

TWO

Accuracy of your firearm cannot be claimed from ONE lucky group. You must take the good groups and average em in with the bad. In my opinion four 5 shot strings is the MINIMUM to even begin to make any serious claims.

THREE

Understand that every rifle is it's own individual, just because the rem700 you bought shoots 3/4" groups is no garentee that the rifle that was sitting behind it on the rack will do the same.

FOUR

Don't ever use the cliché "All day long" when making an accuracy claim, as soon as most read those words most assume guideline No2 applies

FIVE

I don't care if you use millimeters or inches, decimals or fractions for the love of god drop the measurements based on US currency. International members may not know how large a dime is and even if so depending on caliber a rifle that would shoot into a dime"all day long" would be benchrest grade. When you apply this claim to a 10/22 or an marlin336 people instantly don't believe you

SIX

Learn how to measure groups properly, groups size is determined by the extreme spread minus the bullet diameter. If you don't want to do the math and your groups aren't one ragged hole simply measure distance to the edge of the farthest holes on the same side

........rant mode now on standby........

 

[NoNeedForAName]

Man, I was at the range today - and my .270 shoots dime size groups at 500 yards all day long, with any ammo - off hand. It's magic or somethin.

 

[Pulse]

i kinda asked the a question that went in to that direction a couple days ago, because honestly i allready suspected that all to many people did the "best 3shot group out of 100 and thats how good my rifle is"-thing.

 

[JackOfAllTradesMasterAtNone]

I have a feeling that your rant is going to generate submissions of proof, (when the weather gets better). I personally have some rifles that easily shoot MOA. Not benchrest arms. My hunting rifles that I have worked up loads for. In fact, one of them really likes one particular factory round that is just as accurate as anything I can create for that rifle.

So, as I don't have any proof targets handy, and the weather is pretty crappy here, I won't be proving any time soon; I bet that there are others within THR that can justify that they have some pretty darn accurate rifles.

With reference to #6,

depending on caliber a rifle that would shoot into a dime"all day long" would be benchrest grade.

I do suggest that you specify maximum rifle weight and/or maximum barrel outside diameter as even a 'non benchrest grade' heavy barrel tactical rifle will most often provide some quite surprising results, "all day long".

-Steve

 

[R.W.Dale]

I do suggest that you specify maximum rifle weight and/or maximum barrel outside diameter as even a 'non benchrest grade' heavy barrel tactical rifle will most often provide some quite surprising results, "all day long".

I'd appreciate it if you'd not take my quote out of context by editing off the important modifier


No people who usually have rifles that you can cover all their fives hot groups with something that measures .700 use a better measurement system these type claims are almost exclusively reserved for hunting weight arms. Remember to cover a 5 shot group fired from a 30 cal rifle with a dime it can "measure" no larger than .392"

 

[R.W.Dale]

Don't misunderstand me I'm not saying it can't be done. I have a rifle that can do most of these feats myself. But folks like me who have rifles so capable don't overstate our ability and typically have proof that we can walk the walk and talk the talk. We don't base our claims on may of the things I've outlined

 

[Dr.Rob]

Fact is most people don't shoot as well as their rifles.

What a RIFLE can do doesn't equal what the shooter can do.

I KNOW I have a sub MOA shooting .30-06, and honestly 3 shot strings are just fine for a hunting rifle.

Thing is if I don't practice those groups quickly open up. You gotta practice to stay sharp.

I make my claims with ONE load, tuned to that rifle.

As for dimes and nickles and quarters--a US based site. Next time I'll lay a pound coin on the target.

 

[elmerfudd]

Preach it brother!

I personally like the claims some make about 1/2 MOA PSL's shooting Soviet surplus ammo.

IME and contrary to popular internet wisdom, most rifles won't shoot MOA and those that do will only do it with the right ammo. A good bolt action with the right ammo will often do it. A good free-floated AR with the right ammo will often do it. A good single shot with the right ammo will often do it. I wouldn't expect MOA accuracy from just about anything else, but I did watch a guy with an XCR do it repeatedly once.

 

[schadenfreude]

LOL.... I actually learned something from this post. I don't know anything about groups.

When I explain how my Saiga shot I said, 28/30 hit the 12x12 target. I thought that was badass. .......so 12moa yeah?


Of course I can put a (clip) lol through a krugerrand with my 1911 all day at a 100 meters. I swear by UMC ammo.

 

[.38 Special]

Goodonya, mate. Knew I wasn't the only one thinking there are a pack of liars on THR. The sub MOA AK-47s in particular...

As for "proof" I don't think a picture of a target with holes in it is anything of the sort. Anybody can shoot a lucky group at 15 feet and then post it as "This is what my AK does at 200 yards every time".

There's not really anything to be done about it though, other than the occasional rant. People want to lie about their guns online; oh well. Some posts have the ring of truth, others don't. And still others are obvious lies. (Yes, I'm talking about you, AK guy.)

If it makes the OP feel any better, most of my rifles are realistic 2 MOA guns -- meaning that I can absolutely count on a bullet landing no more than an inch away from POA, barring something really unusual.

I still hold that the "running group" is the true test of a hunting rifle. I have a feeling it's not popular because most folks don't want that much truth...

 

[DRYHUMOR]

Well...

EVERY rifle I own will hit the broad side of a barn, as long as I do my part, ANYTIME. Even on a moonless night!

Nuff said.

 

[Afy]

I know that my .260, and .222 RM are sub MOA as long as I do my part, with the reloading and shooting.
My VZ 24 will reliably hit a paper plate at 100 Meters, as long as I do my part. But it will hit the target.
And yes all my weapons will hit the broad side of a barn... even the black powder ones.

 

[Picher]

I agree with a previous post that 3-shot groups are fine for hunting rifles. Most of us don't have a half hour (or the patience) to shoot a 5-shot cold-barrel group for sighting in a rifle.

The key is how well the rifle, ammo, and shooter do over several groups shot at one, or several range sessions.

When a rifle stops shooting well, that doesn't mean that a new stock is needed, but maybe that the screws are loose, the barrel is too close, or slightly touching the forend, or something else that needs correction.

I'm a great believer in pillar-bedding and free-floating bolt actions. I recently took a 2 1/2 minute rifle and turned it into sub-MOA shooter by just bedding and floating. It was a 7mm-08, Remington Model 7 synthetic stock that had been cracked by over-torquing the front screw. I routed and (internally) bolted across the crack and used Acra-Glass to hold it together under vise pressure. Then, I pillar bedded the screws and fully bedded the action and about an inch of the barrel channel. The barrel pressure-pad was removed.

We were all amazed when I shot the rifle at 100 yards and it printed a perfect clover-leaf with Core-Locts, measuring 5/16". Untuned handloads had just shot a couple of groups just over one inch. Handloading tuning techniques, especially testing various seating depths can bring out best accuracy, but when a very light hunting rifle can shoot sub-MOA with factory Core-Locts, that's a RIFLE!

The stock was cut to fit the new owner, a woman who hadn't been a great shooter in the past, but this year, after a bit of training, she managed some pretty decent 1 1/2 MOA groups. She also shot a deer offhand at over 200 yards.

Picher

 

[stubbicatt]

A precision rifle does not a precision rifleman make, nor a precise report.

Neither is group size *necessarily* the sole means of determining accuracy. Practical accuracy is a different kettle of fish from benchrest accuracy. Practical accuracy can, IMO, be ascertained in different ways, from "slung up and prone," to "snap shots," and other means of evaluation.

Oh well.

 

[JohnBT]

"five shot group"

Ten-shot groups would be better.

"spread minus the bullet diameter"

I believe measuring the actual size of one hole in the target you are using and subtracting that number will result in a more accurate calculation. Try it and see. I suppose wadcutters might might a hole the same size as the bullet, but a lot still depends on the target material.

I also believe that the most important shot from a hunting rifle is the first one. If you don't know where that one is going the rest don't matter a whole lot.

John

Edited to add a response to: "EVERY rifle I own will hit the broad side of a barn"

Are you shooting from inside the barn or from outside?

 

[Art Eatman]

For a hunter, consistency in the results from three-shot groups tells you all you need to know, so I disagree strongly with the first point. Target competition is another matter, of course. And, "consistency" is the operative word.

Back when my eyes were younger and my nerves steadier, I regularly shot five- and even ten-shot groups with my Wby Mark V '06. I'd tweaked the forearm bedding and installed a Canjar trigger. I reliably, session after session, kept five shots inside one inch, and ten shots at around 1-1/8". Good enough. Consistent. The last twenty years, though, I've dropped back to three-shot groups. I found that sub-MOA at 100 yards with three shots translated to sub-MOA at my 500-yard range here at the house.

I figure that the benchrest is where you explore, you test, the capabilities of the rifle and the ammo. The whole idea is to minimize the human factor as to accuracy. Tight group shooting away from a benchrest is then a test of the shooter. As a hunter, though, all I'm interested in is the first shot.

As far as Internet claims, hey, it's the Internet. Folks build credibility over time via rational thought and logic, and the wild or silly stuff is easily ignored. Keyboard Kommandos are generally pretty obvious. I never worry about it.

, Art

 

[Double Naught Spy]

In this rant I would like to outline a few guidelines that would go a long ways to making internet accuracy claims much more helpful rather than being pure hyperbole

krochus, I applaud your OP. Now people should be able to post their whopper stories in a much more credible manner!!

Actually, it would be nice if things were standardized.

I realize that foreigners may not know how big an American coin is. However, not everyone has a ruler at the range and using an object of known dimensions to provide a concept of relative size is commonplace for any sort of photography. Given that this is on the internet, then is should be no problem for folks to look up the dimensions of a coin, should they need to do so.

 

[redneck2]

Gee..guess I've been wrong all these years. I thought hitting a dime at 100 yards with the first shot was a pretty big deal. Guess I don't know how to shoot, or at least what accuracy is. Ooops, wrong target. Anything not paper is illegal.

Guess I need to shoot more than three shots. Hey, if five is better than three, then why not six?? Six has to be better than five. How about eleven shot groups?? If five are better than three, then eleven or twelve have to be better than ten, which is way better than five.

Well, then why stop at twelve or fifteen?? If you can't put the whole box into an inch, I'd throw away the gun.

Just wondering...if you shoot two consecutive 3-shot groups, is that as good as one 6-shot group??

Also, if I shoot a 7mm Mauser do I have to use German coins and metric measurement? I'm not sure I can measure metric groups with English tools. Also not sure of the exchange rate from Marks to Pound Sterling. Changes every day anyway, so maybe my groups shrink and expand with the exchange rate.

Me? I hunt. One shot, one kill. If you want truth and accuracy, you've most likely come to the wrong place. See, this here is the internet, where all things are possible with the correct key strokes, selective memory, and plenty of imagination.

 

[jpwilly]

krochus, I agree with most of what you said. Lets be clear though everyone isn't shooting bench rest. I believe that a 3 shot group for a hunting rifle is a sufficient indication of what that rifle will do for it's intended purpose. If the rifle is for long range target shooting the criteria changes quite a bit.

There's no doubt people get on here and embellish a little, some make claims that are completely unbelievable! Many of us know better.

I was recently a participant in a thread about the accuracy of the PSL where the new owner of a PSL was claiming his PSL could hit a 4" target at 100yrds everytime then went on to claim 5-6" at 800yrds with one...HA! http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=406251&highlight=psl

 

[huntsman]

FIVE

I don't care if you use millimeters or inches, decimals or fractions for the love of god drop the measurements based on US currency. International members may not know how large a dime is and even if so depending on caliber a rifle that would shoot into a dime"all day long" would be benchrest grade. When you apply this claim to a 10/22 or an marlin336 people instantly don't believe you

I always thought accuracy was all my shots on the paper plate at 50 yards.

That’s with a stock .30/30 offhand.

 

[heron]

My Ford shoots tighter groups than your Chevy . . .

krochus, I agree with you generally, but even if everyone were totally honest, there are an awful lot of variables. Can you now specify the exact paper target we should use, and disqualify any that are printed at less than 300 dpi resolution?
I'd be happy if people's accuracy claims would at least include details of most of the important conditions, but that wouldn't stop the problem, either. The more information is included, the more argument it can cause. Try this -- I've never seen anyone put in these data:

*Direction of fire (compass bearing)
*Direction and quality of light on shooter and target
*Temperature, humidity, barometric pressure
*Exact windspeed and direction, measured at target, shooting position, and at least one other point mid-range for each shot fired (this relates to the first item for exact calculation of windage effect)
*Distance from muzzle to target, accurate to, say, 1%

I could go on, but you get the idea. How much scientific analysis do you want to be capable of, and how much is any particular shooter willing -- or even able -- to provide?

Everyone has their own idea of what an acceptable accuracy measurement is. And, of course, they like to brag, and that isn't going to stop.

 

[crebralfix]

Good rant.

People don't understand cold bore either and think it's a flyer.

 

[jbech123]

First off, I will agree with you that people inflate claims of what they and their rifles can do. Hell they do that in real life and they can be called out on it, so imagine how crazy they go on the internet where they can say anything they want and never have to back it up. That said -

Don't make any kind of claim of accuracy on a 3 shot group, You're only 2/5th of the way to a useful indication of potential accuracy with a 3 shot group.

Depends 100% on the application. As a hunter, even a 3 shot group is overkill. In the event you do get more than 1 shot at a game animal, the second 2 will likely be at a running animal so group size will be of little importance. and who made you boss to decide a 5 shot group is enough? Why not 10?
For hunting, I have a 2 bullseye target I bring to the range every time, and no matter what I'm doing for the day at the range, the first shot, and only the first shot only from my hunting and targets guns, gets shot at that target. So at present that target has 17 shots from each in it, and group size is right at 1.5" for my 700 5R and a hair less than 2" for my kimber 84.
The first cold barrel shot is the important one for hunting. For a benchrest guy, of course a whole new set of parameters apply.
Bottom line is there are so many variables, shooting a group of whatever size means little unless all the conditions are quantified. So lets say I shot a 4" group...initial thought...less than impressive, but it was at 300 yards...hmm not bad....in a 20 mph wind, wow now that is starting to look better and better. Now maybe I say it was not at a range but in field conditions , I marched a target out to 300 yards, rested my light hunting rifle on a backpack and shot 3 rounds.
On the other hand, a benchrest guy with a rail gun with a 6 oz trigger on a perfectly calm day would think a .4" group at 100 was horrible.

Accuracy of your firearm cannot be claimed from ONE lucky group. You must take the good groups and average em in with the bad. In my opinion four 5 shot strings is the MINIMUM to even begin to make any serious claims.

Agree just because you shot a half inch group once in your life does not mean you have a half inch rifle.

Understand that every rifle is it's own individual, just because the rem700 you bought shoots 3/4" groups is no garentee that the rifle that was sitting behind it on the rack will do the same.

True but trends tend to show themselves when you shoot alot of rifles. Including friend's rifles, a sample size of ~20 remingtons, 10 winchesters, 12 rugers, a few savages, 2 kimbers and 2 tikkas, the remingtons and savages show the best groups, and the rugers the worst/most inconsistent. I'm not saying this is scientific or anything, and also it's not always apples to apples, I mean my kimber weighs a shade over 5 lbs, and a pss is probably nearly 10, so the remington only shooting ~.2moa better is not so much an issue if I have to carry one all day.

 

[Art Eatman]

Anybody here ever go fishing? Ever see the little tape-measure dealie called a "De-Liar"? Popular among game wardens where the length of the fish is pertinent to the legality of the catch.

The big problem with the Internet is that there's no De-Liar...

 

[jpwilly]

The big problem with the Internet is that there's no De-Liar...

Quite right. The closest thing we could have are standards in measurement, reporting and and the watchful eye of experianced shooters.

Maybe we should have a Regional THR gatherings and let the hotshots bring their stuff.