Truth in accuracy reporting (Rant)

[JohnBT]

"Lets see you run 3 miles in gear and set up on top of your ruck and range a target come up with a solution and make a hit on a moving target...."

Can I just phone in for an air strike?

Thanks.

John

 

[Pulse]

i asked the same question in a other topic and did not get a answare:

why does the US army pay Knight's Armament ~4k each SR-25, which is rated at 1MoA, when most el-cheapo AR15 apperently can do 0.25 MoA 'all day long'?
also, the US Army Marksmanship Units seems to be okay with 1 MoA accuracy.. they use those 1moa rifles to compete and win 600yard Marksmanship challanges and even dare to reach out to a 1000yards with them.

also, a 1 MoA equals to about Human chestsize at 2000yards.. just to give a example on how accurate that actualy is.

Do your rulers come with one side in inches and the other side in metric like ours do?

most do not.
preaty mutch anything is in the metric system, it realy is only TV/Computer screens and Rims that are still in Inch. why? i dont know.

 

[Walkalong]

The average shooter has good days and bad days, different ammo lots, more or less caffiene, etc. All sorts of variables involved. But how many average shooters aquire shooting specific training in technique, breathing, stance, position, etc.

Not many.

So when they say it'll shoot (fill in the blank) all day long, they may actually feel that and believe it.

Agreed. My Bench gun can shoot zero's all day long, but I can't. Sometimes I embarass that rifle something fierce. Good days, bad days, good AM, bad PM. Couple of good group, bad group.

 

[elmerfudd]

My AR will shoot .224 one shot groups at 100 yards any time.

My AK does the exact same thing, so I guess we've got pretty conclusive proof now that there really is no difference in accuracy between the two. They are both consistent 1/4 MOA rifles.

Strangely enough, my Brown Bess also shoots consistent sub-MOA 1 shot groups and they're not known for tack driving accuracy.

 

[DRYHUMOR]

Want accuracy?

Look into the biathlon, cross country ski, shoot, repeat. I saw it firsthand in Soldier Hollow in the 2002 Olympics. It was very, very impressive.

 

[redneck2]

why does the US army pay Knight's Armament ~4k each SR-25, which is rated at 1MoA, when most el-cheapo AR15 apparently can do 0.25 MoA 'all day long'?

Same reason they pay $800 for a toilet seat. Because the factory is in some powerful congressman's district.

The gov't is all about lowest bidder. I think they get get caught in a trap between lowest bidder and quality, and end up paying big time.

also, the US Army Marksmanship Units seems to be okay with 1 MoA accuracy.. they use those 1moa rifles to compete and win 600yard Marksmanship challenges and even dare to reach out to a 1000 yards with them.

As much as I like my AR, I'd absolutely guarantee (with my handloads) MOA or sub MOA, and I'd gladly sell it for 4k. If you think this is more empty internet bluster, I've got about $2,500 in the cash in the gun safe right now. I'm willing to back the claim if you think I'm incorrect. My shooter, my rules, my range. 100 yards, lasered. Bring cash.

I suspect hitting a target at 1,000 is much more about doping the wind, firearm fundamentals, and holding your sight picture as rifle accuracy.

 

[taliv]

Same reason they pay $800 for a toilet seat.

not really. it's because compared to colt's M4 or M16, KAC produces a relatively tiny number of guns by hand. if the gov ordered millions of them, i'm sure KAC could get the cost way down.

 

[redneck2]

That's my whole point. Everything is empty talk until you put your own money on the line. All of a sudden, the room gets quiet.

When you start filling gov't contracts with guaranteed performance, the crowd suddenly shrinks. The loud talkers quiet right down.

 

[plinky]

Hey Krokus, in case no one else has brought it up, NICE SHOOTING! What kind of AK were you shooting?

 

[elmerfudd]

That's my whole point. Everything is empty talk until you put your own money on the line. All of a sudden, the room gets quiet.

Yeah, but you made a completely believable claim. You specified an accurate rifle, handloads and a reasonable distance. I doubt that most AR owners could do that, but I have seen enough that can that there is no way I'd take you up on it. I'm still waiting for someone to make the same offer regarding 5" groups at 800 yards with a PSL, (as they claimed about a month ago).

 

[Pulse]

As much as I like my AR, I'd absolutely guarantee (with my handloads) MOA or sub MOA, and I'd gladly sell it for 4k. If you think this is more empty internet bluster, I've got about $2,500 in the cash in the gun safe right now. I'm willing to back the claim if you think I'm incorrect. My shooter, my rules, my range. 100 yards, lasered. Bring cash.

i absolutly believe that there are Rifles that can shoot sub-moa, even Semiauto ones.
but i dont believe that every $550 el-cheapo AR can even come close, especialy considering that such claims often come from peoples that never where within 50km of a reloading press.
i can absolutly see how a AR with freefloat guards, bull barrel and a quality scope firing a load specialy tuned for that very rifle can do moa or even submoa groups at 100yards, especialy with 3shot groups, maybe even with 5 shot groups.
but once you go in to the 10 or worse, 30 shot groups (1 big hole), most ARs can no longer keep up and only the very top examples, often easy worth 3k or more can still hold one MOA.

on a side note, i would love to come shot with or against you, but i doubt they would let me in to the country with my rifle.

 

[NAK]

Accuracy is like Bass fishing...forum post, water cooler, deer camp talk...it does not hold a grain of salt with me unless I see the trigger pulled or the hook removed.

Away from the range, if you talk to 10 guys about rifle accuracy, at least 6 will have a favorite shooter that does MOA or better 'all day long" frequently with a qualifier like "after bouncing around behind the seat of the truck for 6 months." Funny thing is, few of these guys seem to ever take their favorite shooter to range, at least while I am there. It also seems that many of these great shooters get about half a box of ammo a year put through them. Must be great to be born with that kind of trigger discipline, steady hands and great eyesight. Seems that I have to practice a lot to even get close, some of the time.

 

[pmeisel]

Au contraire, lots of de people here are de liars....

 

[redneck2]

Anybody here ever go fishing? Ever see the little tape-measure dealie called a "De-Liar"? Popular among game wardens where the length of the fish is pertinent to the legality of the catch.

I've got a fish on the wall above me right now. Looks huge mounted. I left off the little brass tag that gives date and size. Most guys guess 12-14#. It was 9 pounds 4 ounces. Sorry, I don't know the conversion to kilograms.

 

[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

Wow, who peed in your Wheaties? The rant is needed, and I disbelieve the majority of accuracy claims without pictures, and some with pictures (disbelieve the distance claim). Amazing how pretty much every rifle that anyone owns shoots 1 MOA or better, unless its an AK, then it shoots 2 MOA. And yes, it's always all day long. So I pretty much agree with everything. Except #1. I think that a 3-shot group IS plenty good to determine accuracy, PROVIDED that you follow Rant Rule #2, to determine that it was not a fluke. Going from 3 to 5 shots does nothing but allow the possibility of shooter-induced fliers which then tests the shooter rather than the gun. Important thing to do, but not relevant to what the GUN can do.

 

[Art Eatman]

Reading through all this, it looks to me like there are accurate rifles and there are accurate shooters. The rifles seem more consistent than the shooters, though, as to "all day long" stuff. I've had days at the benchrest and in the field where I've been totally disgusted with myself. Call it a Zen thing, if you like. I've had other days, same rifle, where it was indeed an "all day long" thing. It's not the rifle which changes; it's me.

I don't worry about it all that much...

 

[notorious]

I shot a 1.5" group at 100 yards with my Ruger LCP... with Wolf .380ACP steel cased ammo and lacquered FMJ bullets. Really!

Can't wait to get the LCP scoped and dialed in.

C'mon... let's all chill out a bit. It's the internet. You always will have the online superheroes who can shoot out a gnat's eyelash at 2000 metres with a .177 copper bb out of a Red Ryder lever BB gun... because we all know that is the gun that can put an eye out.

 

[jbech123]

And for those who lock their rifles in a super duper shock absorber vise lead sled. with a electronic hydro trigger. We know who you are... We also know that your groups open up to 2 inches while shooting from a sandbag or rucksack.... hahaha. Lets see you run 3 miles in gear and set up on top of your ruck and range a target come up with a solution and make a hit on a moving target....

I hear you, and I'm definitely a "hunting accuracy" person. I respect everyone's game, but to me personally the .2" group with 20 lb rail gun with a 6 oz trigger, that the user only touches the trigger, is not appealing. The groups that mean something to me are what I can do under field conditions using my backpack as a rest. But to each their own.
People being people will tend to inadvertently exaggerate things or remember them better than they actually were in reality. I am a fairly avid mule deer hunter, and I have to laugh when hunting with someone without alot of muley experience under their belt. To hear them tell stories of deer we saw on the trip when we get back is funny. These are solid guys that are not looking to lie, but they tell the story of a deer we saw across a canyon or couldn't get to for some reason, and they describe the rack by spreading their arms as wide as they can saying "he was at least this wide" etc...and having seen thousands of bucks in the wild and taking a number of nice ones, I know the deer he is talking about was between 155-160 inches, 22-24 inch spread. Respectable to be sure, but certainly nothing like the story being told. and that is not to brag on myself - since I have little interest in elk hunting, every 6x6 I see is a "monster"...when in reality a seasoned elk guy would see things much differently.

 

[madcratebuilder]

First lair never has a chance.

 

[deerhunter61]

I began reading this and got through the first page. I agree there are a lot of posts that make me smile on here with the claims being made especially about accuracy.

As far as my rifles and the accuracy I have spoke about they are all hunting rifles and have been 3 shot groups and will continue to be 3 shot groups. I reload and as much as I want to believe it saves me money I am not so sure anymore. Especially considering I shoot more now. Also I shoot 3 rounds through my rifles and then let the barrel cool so again I will only be speaking about 3 shot groups. I also use a lead sled at the range most of the time because I am usually trying out new rounds and I am not looking to see how good I shoot but how good the round is and I want to remove me from the equation. So when I state the rifle will shoot 1/4 inch groups at a 100 yards it is the rifle that deserves the kudos not me.

Can I shoot accurately? Sure...1/2 groups with each of my rifles off hand...Not even close and I am too old to worry about that type of stuff now. Do I practice and am I good enough to hit what I aim at? Absolutely.

I have never been a great range shooter. It funny. When I was younger put a coke can up at a hundred yards and I would hit it every time but ask me to hit the bulleyes of a target and it was a toss up. But in the woods with a game animal in my sights never a problem either. I am not saying I have never missed but for what ever the reason when I hunt and take aim at an object everything slows down and I see it very clearly so I have seldom missed.

I think as long as everyone takes things with a grain of salt there should not be much to this issue.

Most of what you have brought up reminds me of golf handicaps....Most people claim they have a 10 handicap thinking a handicap is the average of all their scores...nope. It is the best 5 out of the last 20 posted and those 5 are averaged and that with the difficulty of the course factored in begets your handicap. The other problem is with the way people count...they do not count all of their strokes and want to pretend they are better than they really are. So basically I am just saying nothing is happening here that does not happen else where every day and frankly it is just not that big of a deal...

 

[browningguy]

A load of codswallop by and large.

3 shot groups are fine for a hunting rifle, I've never had to use the third one but that's what I use anyway. For my precision rifles I use 5 or 10 shot groups, although 5 is most used by me.

I know quite a few people that shoot in the .2's, you guys are just hanging with the wrong crowd. If you don't believe anything except what you see with your own eyes, then fine, but don't belittle the people that can actually shoot.

 

[redneck2]

It isn't that sub MOA groups aren't possible....

It's when Junior says he can do it off hand with his Chinese SKS, irons, and the cheapest mil-surp ammo "all day long" that the credibility factor fades

back in grade school, it was the "my dog's bigger than your dog" syndrome

These are the same guys that come into the gun shop and buy .500 S&W revolvers because it's the biggest, baddest thing there. Probably 75% that get traded back in are unfired, or the original box of ammo has three missing.

Long, long ago in junior high, I read the book "The Secret Life of Walter Mitty". I think there are a LOT of Walter Mittys here and most everywhere in the world.

I was in High School when the original Dirty Harry movie was released. Every wanna be was buying up Model 29's. They never learn that you can't buy talent or skills. Closest they get is in their dreams.

 

[yooper_sjd]

why i kin drive nails all day long with my hakim. expecially with a case of hakim thumb. but got steel plate, so long as nails are available to pound, they get butt stroked. hope not to affend anyone, but it does drive a nail well

 

[lionking]

Exaggerating,I guess it happens.But I thought the point of sharing stories and info specially on gun forums is to get a idea what a gun is capable of and to learn to become a better shooter?Knowledge is the main goal on a forum,which translates into knowledge that improves your skills.

It has become apparent to me,with surplus rifles no matter what make or model the average spread one will do while rested is 2 to 4 moa,while some may be capable of a little less if it is a better than average or just capable of a group the size of a beachball depending on condition and the shooters skill he puts into it.

Hunting rifles scoped people seem to hope to see groups the size of a quarter or less while varmit or specialized target rifles people seem to expect the size of a dime.And then there the handloaders.

One of our members during the milsurp plate shoot was unhappy that with his Persian mauser got 2-3 moa from it and the time that I rested mine on a bench I too was like that but now I realize this is just about norm for a rifle made for military use even if it has a barrel as long as I am and is in great condition.Handloaders can shrink those sizes though.But then again depending on what you think,personally I don't think 2moa out of a surplus rifle is bad at all,if you can get all your shots into a 10 ring.And besides,when we show our groups we show our "best of".

 

[JWarren]

Basically, there's no way to properly report your groups on an Internet forum.

You see-- as indicated on this thread-- you can do everything as has been suggested here, and then the range is doubted.

Maybe, we could take a picture through a rangefinder or something, but then there's no way to prove that you actually shot at that range.


And we have to remember that there will be some that will NEVER accept anything that they did not witness themselves. Oddly enough, those are the ones that will be drawn to the tread with targets on it.


I think I'll keep drawing little black circles on paper plates and actually ENJOY shooting my rifles.



-- John