Truth in accuracy reporting (Rant)

[Pulse]

I challenge anyone from another country to claim that they don't know how big a dime is. I have travelled in foreign countries and lived in South America and I can tell you that the world is pretty much filled with american money. Not only that, but if we were to say that we shot under 1" people from other countries would wonder how big an inch is.

i did not know how big a nikel or dime was until i actualy looked it up and i still have to use google most of the time to make sure again and often just translate it in to the Metric system.
an Inch however is generaly known, TV/Computer screens and aluminum rims are measured in Inch, even with our metric system.

and yes, the world is filled with US currency, but paper money, not coins.
tell me you shoot 10 dollar sized groups and i probably could guess the size, tell me you shoot Dime sized groups and i have to use google.

- someone from another country

 

[DRYHUMOR]

12.5mm = 1/2"
25mm = 1"
dime = 17.75mm
nickel = 21.17mm
quarter = 24mm

 

[lionking]

Quote plinky"A peeve of mine that I don't think has been mentioned is called fliers. Now there is such a thing and it is useful but that doesn't mean you can ignore the flier(s) for the sake of a good group. Occasionally even magazine tests will use this crutch. If you have a series of such targets it probably shows good potential if you can just get rid of the fliers Till then, the group is what it is."


I dunno,look at this photo I posted with my Mini 14.There is a lonely hole away from the rest,in this case you can call it a flyer I think.There are times when we flinch or squeeze off before we are ready or at the range the guy next to you blasts of a 18 inch 30-06 just as you are shooting that the muzzle blast makes you flinch.

The photo in the link below showing 9 shots in a pattern but with that single shot way off,I don't think it would be right to count that "flyer" as part of the group specially if you know as you shot off that it was a error on your part.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=5192332&postcount=55

 

[FlyinBryan]

i think a called flyer is one that is known by the shooter to have hit the point of aim, but that point of aim was off.

if you didnt realize it until after the fact, like when you walked up and saw it, i dont think it can be a "called flyer".

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Given that this is on the internet, then is should be no problem for folks to look up the dimensions of a coin, should they need to do so.

i did not know how big a nikel or dime was until i actualy looked it up and i still have to use google most of the time to make sure again and often just translate it in to the Metric system.

I rest my case.

 

[XTerminator]

My AK-47 shoots 5-shot groups that can be covered by a Quarter all day long. Well..........................
5 Nickels anyway.


Steve

 

[FlyinBryan]

is someone here really upset when someone says they can shoot a group the size of a (insert any domestic item)????

really???????

 

[longdayjake]

i did not know how big a nikel or dime was until i actualy looked it up and i still have to use google most of the time to make sure again and often just translate it in to the Metric system.

Yet you admit that you know how big one is

Do your rulers come with one side in inches and the other side in metric like ours do?

 

[lionking]

Quotei think a called flyer is one that is known by the shooter to have hit the point of aim, but that point of aim was off.

if you didnt realize it until after the fact, like when you walked up and saw it, i dont think it can be a "called flyer".

Well yeah,but there are times when you just know it was you.Case in point these plates with my .303 Enfield.The first plate I knew it was me,as I shot I just wasn't concentrating the way I should,I just felt scatter minded as I shot.After seeing the first plate I buckled down and cleared my mind and forced myself to focus on the front sight and squeeze so the rounds went off with a surprise.It showed a difference,could be that the rifle shoots better warmed up but that first plate I just knew was not typical of what that rifle could do.

The photo with the Mini 14,it is just obvious that one is so far off from 9 others that I just think you can't count it as part of the "group".

 

[plinky]

LK, I'd have to agree that one flyer out of 10 shots is much better statistically than one out of five and if you can call it when the trigger breaks, it probably was pilot error. If not, it's just as likely you have a gremlin to chase down. Only one way to be sure...shoot it again without the error.

If you recall, in that same surplus match I had a 1" group with the M1917 (except for a flyer). Never could get rid of the flyer and averaged out around 2" IIRC.

 

[lionking]

Plinky agreed.I guess it all comes down to the variables of you the shooter,the gun's particular condition and the ammo selection.Too many varibles,the best we can do is give our own experiences and look at others and come up with conclusion of a gun or ammo tendancy for accuracy or not based on your's and others experience.

Until I visited forums I never knew if a particular gun of mine was typical of the accuracy it got because I never saw another one to compare.Get 10 AK rifles,use the same ammo in each of them benched with a sled not just rested while shouldering to take the shooter out of the equation as much as possible and maybe you can come up with a conclusion of just what a AK can do on average but one AK with a guy using different ammo than the next guy shooting his style only gives a round about clue to what a gun can shoot.The best you can say is "this is what mine does when Im at my best with the right ammo in whatever position".

And then there are older milsurps which given their history and usage accuracy can vary widely.I have a Garand that shoots in the bulls,10 and 9 ring consistantly and I have another with similar muzzle wear that shoots twice the size group on average with the same ammo.

Now you mention that every time with your M1917 you get 4 in a tight group with one away from the rest,any idea what would make that happen?Why would a rifle shoot 4 tight and one that is anti social always even after warmed up?

 

[earlthegoat2]

and make sure your comfortable knowing your rifle can shoot better groups than you can hold if your not on a benchrest. Which is probably more than 1 MOA

 

[rrflyer]

So what you're looking for is something like this?

All groups measured edge to edge. So minus .3 for actual center to center size.

.308 rifle 5 shot groups 100 yards

Shot off a bipod prone.

 

[Hardtarget]

When I see a magazine do a range test of a rifle I check the little box that shows smallest group, largest group, and extreme spread. I only like the one that shows the "smallest of the largest groups" I know, that is comparing ammo brands and there are many variables contributing to a rifles accuracy...this is just the way I like to look at the info.

I don't remember the writer, but I read a comment once..." a rifle in only as accurate as its worst group" I don't know about that, either.

Mark.

 

[BornAgainBullseye]

And for those who lock their rifles in a super duper shock absorber vise lead sled. with a electronic hydro trigger. We know who you are... We also know that your groups open up to 2 inches while shooting from a sandbag or rucksack.... hahaha. Lets see you run 3 miles in gear and set up on top of your ruck and range a target come up with a solution and make a hit on a moving target....

 

[lionking]

Well I guess there can only be a definition when judging a certain rifle or ammo design as a "tendancy" to be so and so accurate.There is no one definative truth specially when you consider humans and the weather are parts of the shooting equation.

Many tout the K31 as being oh so accurate and it does have a tendancy to be so,but then again after shooting 3 K31's and other milsurps there are some of my other designs that are on par with the K31.....in my hands with those rifles.When someone asks "is a Mosin more accurate than a K31?" there isn't a real answer to that than "a K31 tends to be more accurate but a particular Mosin may be more accurate".I have achieved decent results overall with a K31,seen what others can do with one,tends to confirm that it is generally a accurate rifle for a milsurp with iron sights but some rifles even the same design and some people just shoot better than the next.But then you get the question "is a AK more accurate than a M16?" and it is universally known that almost always a M16 is more but...

Some manufactures guarantee a rifle to shoot so and so out of the box,but that is based on a average.The best you can do is see what others do it with it then see what you can do with it and make a call.

 

[elmerfudd]

I've got a K31 and 5 Mosin Nagants, including an M39, and using GP11 I can keep the K31 in just under 2" at 100 yards with the iron sights. I'm a little sloppier with the M39 and iron sights, maybe 2.25" with 7N1 ammo and I had one variety of commercial ammo that it also shot really well with. The best of my Russian Mosin Nagants shoots about 3 MOA with iron sights.

Now I suspect that both my K31 and the M39 are capable of close to MOA accuracy and that the limiting factor is my eyesight and my ability with iron sights. My M44 might be capable of 2 MOA and my other MN's are probably only capable of 3 MOA or less. One in particular, much less.

IMO, the main problems with Mosin Nagant accuracy are poorly built and maintained rifles and third rate ammunition. The basic design is sound and is capable of excellent accuracy and the Soviets used them successfully in international competition, but most of the Mosin Nagants we see here were built during the war years by a government that didn't give a s--t about quality. The barrels are often worn, the parts often don't match and even the best of the surplus ammo is far from match grade.

The Swiss on the other hand made finely crafted rifles and their ammo is practically match grade. The K31 design probably isn't all that much better than the Mosin Nagant, (although it certainly is somewhat better), but it's execution is on an entirely different level. It's like comparing a Mercedes with a Yugo.

 

[JohnKSa]

Learn how to measure groups properly, groups size is determined by the extreme spread minus the bullet diameter.

This will often underestimate the group size, and the relative effect is greater the smaller the group size is.

If you want to do the measurement this way then subtract the HOLE size from the extreme spread instead of just subtracting the bullet diameter. Almost invariably the hole size is markedly smaller than the nominal bullet diameter.

I find it's easier and more accurate to measure center-to-center even though it does require some "eye-balling" to determine where the center of a hole is.

 

[SHvar]

I was looking through some targets we saved.
Some a bit entertaining, nothing in any serious attempt at the time to be super accurate but.
This target had 2 rifles fired at it for fun, and to compare the differences.

The large hole (next to the quarter) was 16 rounds of barnaul brown bear being fired from the Ruger model 77 target rifle, a 1 inch group of 16 shots. The rest of the shots were taken with barnaul brown bear also from my DPMS lopro classic.
All shots were fired at 100 yds, the ruger was fired with a bipod and a 12X bushnell scope while sitting. The DPMS was fired with a 1x32 bushnell T-dot reticle scope off of a piece of wood, also sitting.
The DPMS had a full 30 rd magazine, you can recognize 22 of those shots individually (the rest are lost among the other holes).
Its obvious I wasnt taking my time with the DPMS.
Next was a target with 30 rds of barnaul brown bear at 100 yds. My wife and I took turns firing a 30 rd mag each at our targets.
Mine was 1 minute of CD, hahaha.

Hers was 2 minute of CD.

Taking my time firing off of a sandbag at 100 yds with my DPMS, here is a 1 inch group of 5.

Most of the time we are shooting 3-10 shot groups, nothing set in stone, just what we feel like doing at the time. Sometimes I set multiple targets at 50 and 100 yds, fire at all of them with a single magazine.
The next time the weather is nice enough to try again I might get some better targets to post.

 

[R.W.Dale]

If you want to do the measurement this way then subtract the HOLE size from the extreme spread instead of just subtracting the bullet diameter. Almost invariably the hole size is markedly smaller than the nominal bullet diameter.

I find it's easier and more accurate to measure center-to-center even though it does require some "eye-balling" to determine where the center of a hole is

BUT this only works with groups that are individual holes. You cannot apply this methodology to "ONE HOLE" groupings.,such as the one below

 

[JohnKSa]

BUT this only works with groups that are individual holes. You cannot apply this methodology to "ONE HOLE" groupings.,such as the one below...

Unfortunately "one hole" groupings will have the most relative error induced by assuming that the hole size is the same as bullet diameter.

Here's a challenge.

Take the target in the picture and use some calipers to measure the hole size of the bullet hole on the left. It's by itself enough that you should be able to get a good measurement. Then use the hole size instead of the bullet diameter in the group calculation and post the results.

I'll bet the error exceeds 10% for that group.

 

[R.W.Dale]

Take the target in the picture and use some calipers to measure the hole size of the bullet hole on the left. It's by itself enough that you should be able to get a good measurement. Then use the hole size instead of the bullet diameter in the group calculation and post the results.

I'll bet the error exceeds 10% for that group.

NOPE! Measuring to the edge of the grease ring of an individual bullet hole, something I always do, yields a measurement of .293

So no, not even remotely close to 10%

 

[C-grunt]

My AR will shoot .224 one shot groups at 100 yards any time.

 

[JohnKSa]

...not even remotely close to 10%

The group size reported initially was 0.258 inches. Adding 0.308", the bullet diameter, to that gets us back to the original outer edge measurement of the group (0.566"). Subtracting out the hole size (.293") gives an actual group size of 0.273"; 6% larger than initially reported.

Ok, now using your calipers, see what you get by attempting a center-to-center measurement of the group.

 

[DRYHUMOR]

Well...

Judging from the groups posted, I would say some accuracy claims are valid.

But it really seems to boil down to this. In general.

Military type rifles appear to be accurate enough to engage a man sized target consistently.

Hunting type rifles appear to be accurate enough to engage game sized targets accurately.

And specialty type rifles appear to be able to engage varmints and targets accurately.

One would think they would do it on command, as well as do it for every shooter. It's usually not the case.

The average shooter has good days and bad days, different ammo lots, more or less caffiene, etc. All sorts of variables involved. But how many average shooters aquire shooting specific training in technique, breathing, stance, position, etc.

Not many.

So when they say it'll shoot (fill in the blank) all day long, they may actually feel that and believe it.

Saw an interesting picture that applies to claims of accuracy.

2008 Federal ammunition catalog, page 15. It shows a target stated to be 10 shots fired at 200 yds, about a 3/4 inch group. The photo on the page shows a shooter with an M1A. The target appears to be a 100 yd target with 5 inches of visible black bull.

Wouldn't that allude to the target being shot with an M1A, non verbally, even though that 5" bull would be damn hard to see at 200 yds with iron sights?