The story of how public lands become closed to shooting (photos)

[Marbles]

Perhaps we can top off this thread by laying out some ideas for making shooting stuff easy to clean up.

Say I want to shoot soda cans. Do I lay out a big tarp that could cover the sun? A home-made "container" to collect the mess? ughmm...

I don't like cleaning up mess, my mess or anybody else's mess. But if I use the facilites, I should be prepared to take care of it. Same logic as if you use the trash can, be prepared to empty it. If you borrow someone's car, be prepared to put some gas in it. Borrow a printer, be prepared to stock it with paper/toner/ink.

So I clean up anyways. Because it's my duty, reponsibility. Even though I don't like it. Do it anyways.

 

[Walkalong]

It's pitiful what a few people do. We have the same problem here. We lost a free place to shoot here because of it. Now they charge for and monitor the place. Not all that bad, but we F'd up a nice, private, free place to shoot, whoever "we" are. :banghead:

 

[Craig_AR]

45 years ago my Boy Scout training for how to act outdoors was pretty simple: Leave the land better than you found it. Carry out everything you brought in, and take along what you can of what others left behind.

craig

 

[WayneConrad]

Pack out at least what you bring in. Don't forget your brass. Lay out a sheet to catch brass, or use brass catchers.

Consider edible targets such as cookies and crackers. The critters will clean up after you.

Don't forget noise pollution. Give that family of campers some peace.

Get your shooting club to organize a cleanup of a shooting area. Publicize the heck out of it. Get it in the paper!

 

[coloradokevin]

Lytle Creek is a good example of what can happen to clean up a shooting area. Back in the 70's it was a wild and wooly place with trash everywhere. Unsafe shooting everywhere. In the late 90's it was closed to shooting by the Forest Service things got strict and shooting was not tolerated, guns were taken and fines levied. Because of bad behavior by a few a popular shooting area was closed.
Fast forward to the new Creek.

Perhaps this begs an obvious question (since cleaning the place up in the obvious answer). But, how exactly did the FS go about cleaning up this area?

In other words, how can we (as shooters) work with the FS/etc to have the same kind of success that you guys had with your range?

I'm really disillusioned with the whole recreational shooting situation around Colorado right now. In the past three years every free/public area that I am aware of has been closed to shooting because of the one-percenters (the idiots)!

At this point I'm not even sure where to go shooting... other than expensive private ranges. I know the forest service allows dispersed shooting, but I've always prefered to shoot in other semi-established areas, rather than marching way back into the woods to do so!

(maybe one of you kind fellow Coloradans can drop me a PM with some info on a super-secret-squirel place to shoot around Denver? Perhaps one that isn't sitting on the chopping block right now with the FS... And, as always, I'll pick up my/others trash if I ever locate the area!)

 

[Caimlas]

Here's an idea: contact your local Boy Scouts or Cub Scouts group. Not only would the offenders be more likely to respect a sign saying "this site is cleaned by Boy Scout Troop 1234, please don't litter" than a simple trash can, but it'll both help keep the area clean and help create another generation of conservation-minded young men.

(Of course, the way things are going, the female troop-leaders may simply try and move the troop to try and get shooting banned at the site, too... )

 

[Darthbauer]

Lytle Creek in So. Cal used to have that problem when I was shooting there in high school in the early 90's. I've heard the situation has improved though.

Well they don't find bodies there too often anymore, but it's still a dump and a fine example of how an open range shouldn't be.

Its nice now but you have to shoot at the ranges. Its not open shooting anymore. RSD buzz through extremly low in choppers looking for people doing ANYTHING illegal.

 

[AKCOP]

I have no use for people who call themselves shooters who leave litter behind whether it be at an organized range, a unorganized public shooting area or just a public pit. I shoot at a county maintained range
that gets trashed by people who show up with hundreds of dollars worth of guns and ammo but don't seem to find the money for a staple gun and some paper targets. They will haul in cans, bottles, tires, and all assorted junk and then leave it behind. I forsee the day coming real soon that unless you own land to shoot on their will be few public ranges available. very sad indeed

 

[BackCountry]

Coloradokevin, I don't know of any more shooting areas along the front range open on public land. My friends who are into shooting and still live in the Denver area come to my place (on the west side of the divide) to shoot these days. Since Left Hand Canyon has been closed, they say the best place for them to go shooting is over here, a 4 1/2 hour drive away from where they live. The only other way they get to shoot anymore is at competitions. Most ranges have a long waiting list to get a membership.

My son's boyscout troup does clean up and post the local shooting areas. It doesn't help with the trash. Their signs also get used as targets. The areas do get cleaned up once a year by them, and several other times by the DOW.

 

[lax]

Man that sucks. Although it doesn't come close to the damage the illegals are doing with their trash and rape trees as they invade this country. If only the gov't was that tenacious with the people that dumped 723 large bags with 18000 pounds of garbage over two months in 2002.

http://usinfo.state.gov/eap/east_asia_pacific/chinese_human_smuggling/smuggling_in_the_press/environment.html

Check out the video for some heavy duty trashing of the environment.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=87e_1190809921

 

[heypete]

I shoot on BLM land near Tucson, AZ and I appreciate the ability to shoot for free in an area with a wonderful view.

I usually end up taking a trash bag or two of garbage out, not including my brass. It doesn't seem to make much of a dent, but I do it anyway. A friend and I went out to the range a few months ago and hauled about 1,000 pounds of trash out, and it still didn't look that much better. It's hard to get a lot of the trash, as there's cacti, prickly bushes, etc. that make it difficult to move about, but which hold a bunch of garbage (plastic bags, etc.).

It's particularly bad when people shoot the "Pick Up Your Shotgun Shells" signs.

I don't mind it if people shoot computers (I've had that desire too!) or other stuff, so long as they pick up afterwards. Shooting glass bottles is pretty dumb, as the shards go everywhere.

I should organize another range cleanup day...

 

[coloradokevin]

Backcountry,

Unfortunately you kind of highlighted the problem that I was noticing... We simply don't have public shooting areas left in Colorado!

I lived in OH years ago, and I actually had more places to shoot there than I do here (in a state that was more crowded, had less public land, and was less "gun friendly").

Something needs to be done in this state!

 

[BSlacker]

Perhaps this begs an obvious question (since cleaning the place up in the obvious answer). But, how exactly did the FS go about cleaning up this area?

In other words, how can we (as shooters) work with the FS/etc to have the same kind of success that you guys had with your range?

IIRC the FS did a complete crack down using LE to close the area for shooting for an extended time. They closed the road after dark, during fire season they closed it 24/7 stuff like that. During this time the FS did a cleanup of the area, hauled off all the old cars and fidges big stuff like that. Local gun clubs worked to pick up small stuff like shotgun shells and trash. Once the large area was clean the local shooters and local PD put pressure on the FS to began to allow shooting at a designated area. Gun clubs continued to keep the range clean.
I don't know how it is operated today. I think it is a concession owned by a group of individuals. They put up some front money to develop the range and provide insurance, range rules and range safety personel. The current range has been closed due to trash at times. The FS is serious they investigate all gun shots outside the range.

RSD buzz through extremly low in choppers looking for people doing ANYTHING illegal.

After hearing shots from outside the range I have seen them choppers. There is just the one road and you have to get your vehicle and guns out, FS can wait for them on the road. I still can't figure out why the people do this why don't they just pay to shoot at the range. No hassle and they get to take the guns home.
I suggest contacting the local FS and find out just what shut it down. Maybe nothing you can do if development or such shut it down. If it was trash then find out what it would take to reopen the area. Then get a local club to help to clean it up.

 

[UnknownSailor]

I used to go to Lytle Creek during the bad old days, and yes, it was a mess. I used to keep one handgun set aside hidden but loaded, as the cholos liked to come out with their SKS and AKs and act a fool.
They closed all the open shooting areas on Ortega Highway first in the late 80s, then a some years later they closed Lytle Creek. There used to be an open area a good ways up the 15 towards Vegas, but I haven't liven in that area in almost 15 years, and have no idea if it's still available.
Lytle Creek is run much like a normal outdoor range now. You have to sign in, pay the fee, and you have to shoot at paper. No working from the holster, all guns must be on the table actions open, no rapid fire stuff.

 

[BackCountry]

Coloradokevin,

There are still more shooting areas in Colorado than in most states because we have such a large percentage of public land. It is just along the front range cities that there are no longer places to shoot. Years ago (in the early 80's and before) there were plenty of places to shoot along the front range. Then those cities boomed with mostly transplants from California. They came to get away from the problems of California and just brought their garbage with them. Since then there has been a steady decline along the front range cities. Shooting areas have been the first of many things to go. Luckily the rest of the state (in the mountains and away from the cities) have not been affected as much by the new comers. You are just going to have to plan a camping trip over the divide and enjoy the public land where you can still shoot where you please. Just clean up after yourself.

 

[BSlacker]

I used Lytle Creek as a example of what good can come of people working with the FS and LE to provide low cost safe/sane place to shoot. It ain't perfect but with joining the range and maybe joining a club that uses one of the private ranges you can get around most public range restrictions.

Lytle Creek is run much like a normal outdoor range now. You have to sign in, pay the fee, and you have to shoot at paper. No working from the holster, all guns must be on the table actions open, no rapid fire stuff.

This is what I mean. Most popular shooting areas that are on FS land that get trashed will get closed simple as that. If enough interest exist then pressure will bear on the right people to open controlled shooting areas they must not cause a trash problem or they will be closed. You will pay fees, shoot less interesting targets, have less freedom to practice such as holster rules, fire rates are often restricted, but not currently at Lytle Creek. I am ok with a normal outdoor range for most of my shooting. When I want more varied shooting experience I am a member of a range that allows it.
It is great how most shooters clean up after themselves. I don't think it is real shooters that make the mess it is people with guns thats all not really shooters that enjoy it and want to continue for a long time.

There used to be an open area a good ways up the 15 towards Vegas, but I haven't liven in that area in almost 15 years, and have no idea if it's still available.

These areas are restricted to shotgun only due to development not trash. Stodard Wells road has a nice range right off the exit. Join for a modest fee and you can rapid fire and fire from a holster at private pistol bays. Nice clean range on private property.

 

[h0ss]

Man, that second picture with the shotgun shells littering the ground looks just like the ground at the place where i shoot.

Only difference, is the place i shoot is private property, but the owners let people shoot on it. It is a business that makes concrete and what-not for construction. A little down the public road past their business they have a dirt road on their property with a gate in front so you have to park and get out and walk, but its an old gravel pit they dont really use anymore.

Everyone goes there to shoot, and even though its private property, everyone (morons) shoots up old TV's, laptops, satelite dishes, mannequins (sp?), whatever you can think of, and then they leave it.

I guess the owners dont care because they dont use it anymore, but i see all that garbage laying around and i get nervous because what if they do see it and then post no trespassing and put up a fence or close off the area that people shoot.

And being generous as i sometimes can be, i get the urge to clean up all the trash as to ensure that i can have a place to shoot as well as everyone else who shoots there (even if they are morons). I mean, this is private property that the owners let us shoot on like its public. I dont even know any of them! I wish people would smarten up!

However, i dont have a truck that i can use to clean. I would be lucky to find someone who would help me clean, so i would most likely be going solo on that project. Also, it discourages me because i know I would be the one cleaning, and everyone after would see that it got picked up, and not care and STILL leave their crap. It would get trashed again, and again. But what am i going to do, keep being the only one cleaning someone elses private property?

 

[MT GUNNY]

When I go to my shooting spot I pick up after other people a few large items some bits of trash tos them in the back of my truck when im done shooting I empty my truck bead at the local McDs.

 

[coloradokevin]

Here comes the next saga in this story... First the FS closes parts of the grasslands that the idiots have trashed...

Idiots respond by shooting up private property in the area:

http://www.9news.com/news/local/article.aspx?storyid=89667

News doesn't help the matter, refering to the damage as being caused by "recreational shooters", rather than criminals.

Like I said, I won't be surprised if the forest service issues an outright shooting ban on the Arapahoe and Roosevelt National Forests in the very near future... It has been debated before, and they have recently closed parts of the Pawnee Grasslands, and the Left Hand Canyon area. Instead of an improvement, this is the repsonse the forest service is seeing!

 

[Jim March]

If you want to bring targets that you can leave there, no problem. Go to any dollar store and buy a large pack of 200+ generic praline crackers. They're about 3" x 3" square. Lay them against a berm or whatever and they make wonderful targets that the local critters will take care of later.

Problem solved.

 

[Coronach]

If you know any boy scouts, cleaning up a shooting pit makes for an excellent service project.

Heck, building a range on public land (with applicable permissions, of course) would make an outstanding Eagle Scout project. Plus, it introduces more people to the sport, if only in a small way.

Mike

 

[blackcash88]

When I go to my shooting spot I pick up after other people a few large items some bits of trash tos them in the back of my truck when im done shooting I empty my truck bead at the local McDs.

And I'm sure they really love you for that by utilizing services they pay for.

 

[tmajors]

It's not often I go to public lands to shoot, but when I do I clean up my trash, and about 4 times my trash in other peoples. Doesn't make too much of a dent, but at least the area immediately around my shooting is clean when I leave.

 

[Justin]

The thing that I find ridiculous is that there is an 11% federal excise tax on rifles and 10% tax on pistols that is supposed to be generate the revenue for taking care of outdoor spaces. With all the guns sold in this country every year, I have to wonder where that money is going.

It's certainly not being used to hire range officers.

 

[PTK]

Okay, so there really aren't places anywhere in the South Park area to shoot anymore, unless I feel like driving to Cherry Creek (Clear Creek? I don't recall) and paying $15 or so for an hour. Great.