"The Turner Diaries" hurts our cause....

[StrikeFire83]

So I stumbled on this piece of inexcusable racist filth (The Turner Diaries) on the internet this morning and was appalled to learn that it has been and continues to be sold at gun shows with some frequency.

The fact that McVeigh sold the book at his gunshow table and based his crimes on the book is bad enough, but the fact that William Pierce would try to co-opt the struggle to keep firearms ownership legal into his racist Nazi fantasy world disgusts me.

I’m glad this “novel” remains in print, because it forces us to remember that neo-Nazism and Klan garbage is still clinging to life in this country.

I think it is our duty as good men (and women) to decry this piece of trash and confront those who would accuse the gun community of being like the villainous caricatures who populate The Turner Diaries.

 

[Liberal Gun Nut]

I support free speech and all, but gun shows are commercial events, run as a business. Surely the business that runs them could set some standards of what can be sold there? Having the Turner Diaries at gun shows confirms the worst stereotypes. Also the Nazi stuff and the WWII "historical" stuff and Wehrmacht "collectibles" should not be there. Let them have all that garbage in their own show.

Just like a shopping mall makes very careful decisions about which businesses it allows in, shouldn't a gun show be able to do the same thing?

 

[kengrubb]

On another thread, Stauffenberg quoted Michael Douglas (Foster) in Falling Down to Frederic Forrest (Nick the Nazi).

"We are not the same. I'm an American. You're a sick a**hole."

Totalitarian movements tend to favor the right to individual arms--up until the point they obtain power.

 

[beerslurpy]

I've never seen anything like that at a gun show. Then again, I dont hang out at the confederate belt buckle and beef jerky table so I probably would have missed it if it was there. I'm usually looking for magazine and ammo bargains. Sadly my gun show visits are at an end until I become gainfully employed again.

 

[Finch]

At any gunshow I've been to (only Las Vegas one's) they clearly say on their table rental agreement that the sale or promotion of hate based material and products are forbidden. Although they do exclude objects that could be of historical value, such as Nazi war medals and the like.

 

[kengrubb]

Just like a shopping mall makes very careful decisions about which businesses it allows in, shouldn't a gun show be able to do the same thing?

They can, and some do. Silverado doesn't let that stuff in. I don't believe WAC does either.

Personally, I don't see a problem with WWII and Wehrmacht collectibles. I similarly don't see a problem owning a Civil War era firearm that was owned and used by a Confederate.

Reproduction Nazi collectibles strike me as clearly associating oneself with Nazism.

Authentic Nazi items from WWII while collectible are still associated with something abhorrent. If one owned it under the auspices of having a "trophy" from a conquered idealology, then why not own an authentic Klan hood. I cannot see myself owning either.

 

[crazed_ss]

Gun shows here are pretty lame. Probably because all sales, even private ones, have to go through FFLs and have background checks and such. Last gun show I went to had a bunch of Nazi stuff.

 

[Liberal Gun Nut]

Personally, I don't see a problem with WWII and Wehrmacht collectibles. I similarly don't see a problem owning a Civil War era firearm that was owned and used by a Confederate.

WWII collectibles from the Allies, I have no problem with. I personally am not interested in them, but cool, they were from the right side. The Allies were fighting against totalitarianism (tenuous alliance with Stalin aside).

Wehrmacht collectibles are another thing entirely. They are coded symbols for not just "interest in WWII history", but identification with one particular side and one particular ideology, and ideology of evil. Sort of like how, in modern Germany people are not allowed to admire the Nazis, so they have code words like Dresden, or symbols or images to identify themselves with the Nazis. That's what these Wehrmacht collectibles are, in my view, and if I had any say in it, they would be banned from gun shows and from GunBroker. Let them have their own Nazi Gun Show and NaziCollectibleBay.com site if they want to.

Not only are these things abhorent in their own right, but, as I said above, they confirm the worst stereotypes about gun owners.

And on the business side of things, I stopped going to gun shows long ago when I saw those horrible Wehrmacht "collectible" tables. So they lost me and my friends as customers.

 

[Cromlech]

There is such a thing as genuine historical interest, you know.

Maybe somebody has an extensive collection of WWII memorabilia from many different countries, should they leave out some of the beautifully crafted German items, simply because there is a taboo associated with them?

If you don't like those people who have their house adorned with SS, Gestapo and other Nazi 'decor', fine don't go there or associate with them. Craploads of buildings in my home city of Bristol were bombed during the blitz in WWII, does that mean that I shouldn't collect Luftwaffe memorabilia? Not that I do.

Should people not collect 19th Century United States Army memorabilia on account of the displacement of thousands of Native Americans?

 

[Selfdfenz]

Per the original post: Never read The Turner Diaries but based on comments made by many I'm not sure the world would miss the The Turner Diaries if all the copies of it disappeared overnight. Since I don't plan on ever reading it I could care less. I don't go to gunshows to buy reading material.

One comment on the Nazi uniforms and badges:
I've always kind of eyeballed the people on both sides of those tables with the idea in the back of my mind they were kooks until I attended a combination gun/militaria show where one of the booths that several complete WWII German uniforms on display.

I was fascinated to look at that display and to think my Dad had looked at men dressed the same way across a set of gun sites while they were doing the same. The same display had some complete examples of US battle dress, one of which I recognized as being my Dad's WWII unit right down to the boots.

All the uniforms seemed so small.

I still think some of the people that trade Nazi stuff are kooks but seeing those uniforms side-by-side sort of changed my perspective on the whole issue.

S-

 

[orangelo]

They can sell whatever they like at their tables. Doesn't mean I'm gonna spend a single cent on their products however.

Display nazi flags and stuff in a non-historical manner and I pretty much take my Class 3 sized wallet to another table and spend it there instead.

 

[ilbob]

I have read the Turner Diaries. It is an angry, mean spirited book. Parts of it are hard to read. Other parts are quite fascinating as it gives you an insight into a sub-culture you probably never knew existed.

It is written at maybe a junior high school reading level, which can make it maddening to read at points. That may (or may not) tell you something about the intended audience.

I don't see that collecting war memorabilia from any side of a war is inherently bad. History is history. Keep in mind that world communism killed far more people than the Nazis ever dreamed of. I don't see any effort to ban Soviet, Red Chinese, or North Korean war memorabilia.

I am not inclined to ban anything that does not directly harm some other person. If you want to goose step down the street in your black SS style uniform, it will not bug me one bit, because I will not be there to watch.

I find it somewhat ironic that we have gun owners that want to ban WW2 German military artifacts but can't understand why evil black rifles are feared by some in the gun control camp. They are all just inanimate objects, and ought to be treated that way.

 

[Bruce H]

Freedom can be a harsh mistress. Nobody is forcing anyone else to buy and read the material. If everybody gets a choice of what to not have around there would be a lot less things in the world. I've seen this material at gun shows and have never had the proprietor grab me and force me to read it.

 

[ilbob]

Freedom can be a harsh mistress. Nobody is forcing anyone else to buy and read the material. If everybody gets a choice of what to not have around there would be a lot less things in the world. I've seen this material at gun shows and have never had the proprietor grab me and force me to read it.

Some of the stuff from the John Birch Society is not much better. Just written in a less inflammatory way. And they are at a fair number of gun shows.

I have noticed lately they make an effort to disguise themselves though. Nothing at the table says JBS. They admit it if you ask them point blank, but otherwise you might never know.

 

[Thin Black Line]

Unfortunately, this is one of the warts that our 1st amendment allows on
our national body.

 

[HankB]

I inherited a number of Japanese collectibles - rifle, swords, flags, periscope - from my father who gathered them as war trophies on the field of battle during WWII. I see nothing wrong with keeping them for what they represent - tangible reminders of the triumph of good over evil. I can see how some people could develop an interest in collecting some of this stuff, though I'm not personally interested in war relics collected by strangers.

Same goes for most German/Wehrmacht/Nazi battle-related stuff . . . which does not include modern imitations, the Turner Diaries, any Aryan Nations crap, or anything that glorifies Nazis, death camps, or implies Hitler was right.

(If you believe the Nazis were worse than the Japanese, I suggest you google the "Rape of Nanking" and "Bataan Death March" for a start.)

For those who assert they won't own anything associated with evil, I assume you don't own any rifles with Mauser actions, Lugers or P-38s, nor SKSs, AK-clones, or stuff coming from any other parts of the world associated with evil. (If you're strict, you could add New York, Massachusettes, Maryland, Illinois, and California to your "don't buy or own stuff from bad places or people" list.)

 

[Sindawe]

Freedom can be a harsh mistress.

Well said Sir, well said.

I've seen The Turner Diaries for sale at a couple of gun shows now and then, usually along side other texts. Some in the same vein, some not. While I've no desire to read it, its presence at gun shows bothers me not one iota.

Same goes with Nazi, Imperial Japan or even Soviet memorabilia, whether authentic or reproduction. The authentic stuff has historical value and in my view the reproductions are on the same level as reproductions of ancient Roman artifacts.

While I do not actively collect such artifacts, I've a few items that I've purchased just cause they strike my fancy on an atheistic level. My den has hanging on its walls the Naval Ensign of Imperial Japan and the Confederate Navy Jack of 1863-1865. My favored historical peice though is an authentic Reichs mark minted in 1937 that has been saw cut around the eagle on the face.

 

[The-Fly]

I've never seen any outright nazi type garbage at the shows I've attended. I do see the John Bircher's regularly, and think they are way out in right field so to speak. Oh well, free country and all that.

 

[geekWithA.45]

I think there are fundamental distinctions to be made between gun culture, war memorabilia, and the infantile white supremacist's wish fulfillment fantasy that is the Turner Diaries.

+1 on the Falling Down quote.

 

[asdaf]

I have read the Turner Diaries and they leave you feeling as if you've been covered with a thick layer of slime by the time you're finished. But right after I finished I went out and bought my own copy. (Used, I didn't want any more royalty payments getting back to Pierce.) Now, as a liberal who opposes gun control, I offer it as a loan to anybody who will read it. I outline the real crimes; murder, robbery, and terrorism, associated with those who take the book as gospel. I try to drop in a mention of the racist origins of much modern gun control law. When they return it to me I tell them how I found it impossible to read the "Day of the Rope" scene without wanting to pull a few items out of the gunlocker. They chuckle and usually agree at which point I extend an invitation to go and try shooting. I have an %80-90 success rate with some gentle cajoling. Of the people who go there is always a reduction in hoplophobia and a few have become genuine converts.

It is foolish of anybody who is trying to win the political battle over gun control to associate themselves with Pierce and his evil crowd so if it were my gun show that stuff would be out the door. If its worth the damage to your primary cause to make a little more money it's a free country I guess. Personally it is convenient when your opponent writes your own propaganda for you. And remember- You can't consider yourself truly left-wing untill you get an AK-47.

 

[Liberal Gun Nut]

Freedom can be a harsh mistress. Nobody is forcing anyone else to buy and read the material. If everybody gets a choice of what to not have around there would be a lot less things in the world. I've seen this material at gun shows and have never had the proprietor grab me and force me to read it.

Freedom isn't always that harsh. Gun show organizers have the freedom to say no to businesses they don't want there. Should Nazis be able to get parade permits, or permits to hold their own Nazi gun shows? Absolutely! They are welcome to do that. I think it would make business (and moral) sense for operators of mainstream gun shows to ban all that stuff from their shows.

 

[FreedomKommando]

Last time I went to a gun show at the George R. Brown Convention Center here in Houston, there was some guy selling Nazi **** at this table, flying the swastika. As I walked past, I saw him in conversation with another guy who stopped to check out his wares. All I heard was a snippet of the conversation, the guy behind the table saying, "I'm not saying that some Jews didn't get killed, but..."

Obvisouly he's a Holocaust denier who sells Nazi "memorabilia" and recruits for some neo-Nazi outfit. The organizers of the gun show - NOT the state - should forbid that kind of filth.

 

[Liberal Gun Nut]

Yes, the show is a private business. If I had a shopping mall, would I allow Nazis to sell Wehrmacht "collectibles"? No, it's morally bad and bad for business. They can, and should do the same at gun shows.

Take a look at this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mHRqe9L56t4

That's the stereotype many urban liberal Jews have of gun owners. It's not true. But selling that crap at gun shows provides confirmation of the stereotype. Let the Nazis have their own show.

 

[444]

I read the book.
I don't remember that much about it. If you don't like it, don't read it (you obviously DID read it however). I read a lot of stuff I don't agree with. I watch a lot of stuff on TV that I don't agree with. I engage in conversation with people I don't agree with. I don't think any of them should be banned.
If I remember correctly, the Nazis were the ones usually associated with book burning. The concept is the same no matter how self righteous you are.

I don't consider myself racist. That being said the most racist things I have ever heard come from the mouths of African/Americans on a daily basis. They say things that I would be tarred and feathered for. The join and support many openly racist oganizations from black colleges to black book stores, to black clubs to black football conferences, to black television networks to what have you. Good friends of mine that happen to be black make statements at work that are so racist that I would be fired if I made similar statements about them. Obviously racisim knows no borders and I don't think that the racist speech, music, organizations, or television networks supported by black Americans should be banned either.
I do however think that many Americans need to punch into reality and realize that just because the person isn't a WASP they can and are racist. And the fact that they arn't white doesn't make it right or acceptable.

As far as "hurting our cause", I don't think it matters. People are going to think what they are going to think. Rational, sensible people realize that they can't stereotype people. The idea that if only we act a certain way or if we only say certain things or if we only own certain types of guns that the antis will realize we are great people is a flawed idea. They don't like us and there is nothing we are going to do to change it.

 

[GW]

I disagree
Let the market decide
Reprehensible as Turner Diaries may be, they will go the way of the dodo if nobody buys them.
Attempt to ban them and people will buy them just to see what the fuss is all about.
This book thrives on controversy and the best way to kill it is to ignore it