"The Turner Diaries" hurts our cause....

[crazed_ss]

You didnt answer the question... Would you have a problem with someone selling jihadist propaganda at gunshows?

EDIT: ..And *** does CA have to do with anything? Are you saying people dont like Californians because we're not fans Nazism?

 

[FreedomKommando]

CDs of videos of our guys getting beheaded and blown up by jihadis,

The networks do not show such things, and they do not fly enemy flags over their buildings or during their broadcasts. The media do not glorify Al Qaeda, bin Laden, Hizbollah, or the Iraqi insurgency. The guy flying the Nazi flags over his table at a gunshow is glorifying the Third Reich.

How does this grab you ? http://zombietime.com/stop_the_us_is...war_8_12_2006/
That is OK, but if you display WWII stuff at the gunshow, you are a sicko.

No, I don't that it's OK to refer to Jews as "kikes." Nobody on this forum has voiced the opinion that it is OK to call Jews "kikes," so what does that dork with a sign have to do with neo-Nazis selling Nazi sh** - excuse me, I mean "World War II military artifacts" at gun shows?

 

[Liberal Gun Nut]

I said several times in this thread I have a big problem with Nazi crap at gunshows. I'll say that I would have an equally big problem with Hizbolah flags at gun shows.

This kind of stuff is a deal killer for fence-sitters.

 

[Autolycus]

ASDAF: A better book for pro-gun people to use to represent a bad government is Unintended Consequences.

I got the impression that you were using The Turner Diaries to illustrate a bad government. (I may have misread your post.)

As it stands I support peoples right to own Nazi memorabilia. If it is real then it should be treated with respect. It is a piece of history that can serve as a reminder of the worst kind of hatred. And the men who carried it were a formidable enemy.

Replica crap is just so some kids can feel tough and as if they belong. Books like the Turner Diaries should be sold at KKK meetings and all that. It is not a part of the gun culture but part of a culture that likes guns. I am not for the banning of books by the government but by private groups I would hope a gunshow would get rid of that stuff.

The Antis love to point out that this is the stuff you see at a lot of gun shows. Timothy McVeigh claimed that he blew up a building to support the gun culture and he used the Turner Diaries as an inspiration. This kind of stuff scares people who are borderline anti or pro gun. They become anti when they see some books like that being sold at gun shows. They then associate them as being the gun culture. And we dont need any more enemies than we have.

 

[GW]

"Let the Market decide!" What garbage. The Market isn't G-d Almighty. It's an abstraction of the human tendency to buy and sell stuff. If you choose it as your arbiter of morality you have a conscience that most closely resembles cheese-cloth.

I prefer the market as the arbiter in these matters over self-appointed judges of morality
Its this simple-- If nobody buys the books, if nobody is throwing tantrums about it and keeping it in people's consciousness, it will die the quiet death it deserves.
The issue is freedom and this includes the freedom for these people to be a$$holes. They are the price we have to pay for our freedom to say what's on our minds, complain about our politicians or even to post here on the internet.

Try to organize a boycott of the shows and see if the promoters cut the bookseller loose.

But I do believe that people who spout this sewage are more likely than your average American to dangerous to the people around them. I don't trust them and think that law enforcement needs to be aware of what they do and come down on them with the Big Hammer when they engage in acts of terrorism

Wow, change the text in red to "own guns" and you have the mentality of the folks who want to take away our freedom/right to keep and bear arms

If you are right and this is the only venue where this sort of filth and the scum who peddle it are to be found, well, that certainly says something about us as a group.

I like to think that it means gun-shows and those of us who attend them are about FREEDOM, Liberty and Self-Determination, As I said before, the nazi types are the burden we must bear if we are to be a free society.
I prefer having to deal with those idiots over having thought-police determine what I can and cannot say/read/write.

 

[kengrubb]

Timothy McVeigh claimed that he blew up a building to support the gun culture and he used the Turner Diaries as an inspiration.

It is alleged that McVeigh claimed to have read Unintended Consequences, wished he'd read it before blowing up the Murrah Building, and that he would not have blown up the Murrah Building had he read it.

John Ross has a superb response about McVeigh and Unintended Consequences.

 

[The Guy]

Military history stuff is neat, no matter whos side it came from. I don't own any though.

I don't think it is a good thing to have a nazi flag unfolded in plain veiw at a gun show, or those guys who insist on wearing German Military uniforms at their booths. They may have a first admendment right to do so, but what they are doing in our shared house (firearms) is bad for our image. We have enough trouble with image anyway to consiously add fuel to the radical left's fire.

I used to have a confederate flag in my room when I was at school. Then I became freinds witha dude who happened to be black. He was cool with it, but I ended up thowing it out anyway because I realised that to most blacks, it was an incennerary symbol of oppression. I CHOSE to toss it, out of respect for him, even though he DID NOT have a problem with it. I did not want the immage that I am an intollerant racist, because I am not.

I also cringe when some people show up to shows wearing lots of cammo and "kill 'em all" type shirts. Those people are the ones who end up on T.V. looking like illiterate dumb asses. They may not be, but you bet that the press will do a good job of protraying them as such.

At a show at the Champaign County fairgrounds several years ago, there were several people standing around outside. They were all dressed well and chatting quitely among theirselves. A borred T.V. crew was watching them, waiting for something to happen. Well, in the form of three leather clad motorcyclists it did. The on scene guy waved his camera over, had a short interveiw (30 seconds was all he needed) and zoom, the T.V. crew was off.

That night the interveiw was played on the news. You guessed it, they (motorcycle guys) were protrayed as the "typical" gunshow people, and the one they talked to was esspecially dumb sounding.

Remember who they spoke to out of all the people standing around. Not the older gentlemen, not I (my hair must have been comded that day), but the sterotypical "gun guy".

We are representaives of our culture all the time, so we must hold ourselves to a minimal standard in our represantation. That is why, to help our image in the public eye, we must refrain from having these symbols prominately displayed at our venues. They have a right to be there, I will not disagree, but the promince should be minimalised.

P.S. I have no problem with motorcycle riders. I want to get a bike myself. I have no problem with confederate flags or "kill 'em all" t-shirts. Your choice. Just remember what they say about you in the court of pubilc oppinion, the real court we have to win over. And no, it shouldn't have to be that way!

 

[Autolycus]

Great posting by The Guy.

If you watch "Bowling for Columbine" you would see the people he interviewed. One of the supposed OKC conspirators, a guy whos hat read "F**K You" and Heston. The OKC guy was made to appear like the nutcase he is, the hat guy was talking about how people could be out to get him and just made to sound like a paranoid schitzo. Heston was also made to look bad. Its hard for Antis to do that if there are no Nazi dressed people at a gun show or biker types spouting racism or sounding like conspiracy theorists.

 

[RustyShackelford]

The Turner Diaries/No Heroes/gun show incident

The Turner Diaries is not the best PR for pro-gun/2nd Amendment/gun rights activists. It's a bunch of racist *&%$ that should not be taken seriously.

The SAC(FBI Special Agent in Charge) who started the FBI's elite HRT(Hostage Rescue Team) made all of his sworn agents read The Turner Diaries and understand/learn about the hate groups that push this BS across the US. Note: for more information get the non-fiction book; No Heroes where the SAC explains this subject in more detail.

A few years ago I saw a big display at a local gun show; a group of "white power" nutbars where standing around some guy signing copies of The Turner Diaries! The man claimed to be the "author" of the book but there was one major problem, I saw the real author interviewed on a network TV news show and this guy was a different person!

What really burned my *^% was that a group of uniformed FHP(Florida Highway Patrol) troopers were also standing by the neo-Nazi table laughing and joking with these a-holes like they were at a church picnic or backyard BBQ, .

I considered contacting the FHP's Office of Professional Standards or the FHP Commandant directly but I thought they'd just give me some lame excuses. I was ticked that my tax dollars were be wasted watching these sworn LEOs guarding a lowlife bunch of jerk-offs!

Rusty

 

[Rich K]

I read the Turner Diaries to give me an idea how these wackos think They are a sick bunch of puppies, But if you don't know what they think, you can't offer a good argument against them. You have to know where the chinks are in their armor, and exploit them. Just my .02.

 

[Frog48]

The Turner Diaries is garbage. The whackjobs that believe in that crap are scumbags. I find such beliefs severely misguided and dangerous, however I support their Constitutional Right to hold those opinions and publish their literature.

On another note, I have no problem with WW2 German MILITARY collectibles. I do not think highly of Nazi propaganda, though.

So far on this topic, yall are making no distinction between the Hitler chronies and the soldiers. Nazis were the political party, and the paramilitary units within the party (SA/SD/SS/Gestapo). The Wehrmacht was the military (Army/Navy/Luftwaffe).

I know, its just semantics, to an extent.

 

[Deanimator]

I have read the Turner Diaries. It is an angry, mean spirited book. Parts of it are hard to read. Other parts are quite fascinating as it gives you an insight into a sub-culture you probably never knew existed.

The neo-Nazi National Alliance used to sell it at gunshows at the Cuyahoga Country Fairgrounds, here in the Cleveland area. They eventually got the boot. They uniformly seemed to represent the bar patrons in Star Wars, rather than some "master race". There wasn't a chin among them. The funny thing was that they used as their symbol, the Nazi "Mother's Cross" for reproductive virtuosity. Oddly, none of them seemed especially fecund...

 

[Kentak]

Regarding "Nazi crap at gunshows," etc.

My brother is a Civil War buff. He has a collection of both Union and Confederate artifacts. Some collectors specialize in Union, others in Confederate. Doesn't mean they take sides, they just have an interest in one or the other. Same thing with WWII. Just because someone has an interest in collecting Nazi artifacts, doesn't necessarily mean they are fans of the Nazi doctrine. It's a legit niche of historical interest. *Could* the collectors be neo-Nazis? Sure, but let's not jump to that conclusion based just on the interest in the artifacts.

K

 

[Sungun09]

"Personally, I'm glad to see books like "Turner Diaries' still out there. Lets me know that viewpoints more extreme than mine are still out there, and are not being jailed (yet). It's one of my canaries in the coalmine, so to speak."

Well said

 

[Hk91 Fan]

I don't post much but this one brought me out. I am absolutely astounded at the fact that there are some here who feel that gunshows should choose to exclude certain war relics from the tables. Ever searched for a certain obscure firearm? Well then, next time try for it's related accouterment - I assure you that this is much more time consuming and difficult.

I own numerous Nazi objects (all real*, expensive, and very much tied to the arms that they surround). Moreover, I own numerous other war relics, as well. As an example, I would own true Hezzbolah (sp?), Chechen, all Axis members, Ghengis Khan, Darth Vader and/or whatever else were I able to own the true arms of the period. I am a collector, and cherish these items. There should be no more stigma attached to these items than there should be for a Volkswagon, or a Krupps coffe maker or whatever else people tend to own.

Moreover, since when did we all care what anti's think about our sport/heritage/hobby/craft/whatever? "They" will always paint us as racist, ignorant, paranoid extremists and whatever else will help forward their anti freedom agenda. Further, in case some of you haven't noticed, the gun culture is not immune to the type of ignorant, racist, ignorant, paranoid, and extremist persons who populate EVERY facet of society. None are immune.

If the Turner Diaries didn't exist, the anti's would fabricate another type of stereotype for us to wallow beneath. When that goes away, they will start going for Enemies, and UC...


* P.S. I would certainly consider owning modern reproductions of war relics if I was set on a certain look for a case and couldn't find the real thing. I would still try to locate the real object, though - but, this can be difficult.

 

[gwalchmai]

I always find it hilarious when <strike>leftist</strike> progressive gun owners rail about how TD, nazi junk, and beef jerky shouldn't be sold at gun shows because it "hurts our cause". They completely miss their creeping incrementalism in their zeal to appeal to the very leftists who want to close the gun shows down.

 

[tellner]

Sorry, it doesn't wash.

This stuff is evil. We should fight evil, not support it. Let them buy and sell their trash in private away from decent people, but cut them no more slack than we do the jihadis.

Not care what the antis say? Well, in Marshmallow Fairy Land we wouldn't have to care what anyone else thinks. Here in the real world there are things like public opinion. If people like you support and encourage Nazi bastards you are going to turn fence sitters and decent pro-gunners into antis. If right and wrong don't affect you at least self-interest should make a dent.

 

[444]

It's called "divide and conquer" gwalchmai.
You make one segment of the group out to be villians and go from there. People who collect WWII relics are bad. People who own guns with big magazines are bad. People who own machine guns are bad. People who read certain books are bad. People who dress a certain way are bad.
You succeed with this tactic when the members of the group itself buy into the program an villianize that segment of the group and disassociate themselves with members of that segment. Which is another ironic part of this thread. People are so anxious to proclaim themselves as not racist yet they don't think about the fact that they are singling out a certain group of people for "special treatment".

What frightens me about these threads is how effective the brain washing is. When a thread like this is started, people wait in line simply to post that they are not racist. They aren't adding anything to the thread: they just want to publically state that they are not racist. And the targets of these allegations are the people that the thought police say are the targets. As I tried to bring up at the beginning of this thread, it is rare that you get this kind of outrage at racism by blacks or racism by muslums or whatever. In fact, in the past, when racist comments have been made about muslums, the thread was immediately locked. But, make a racist statement about whites and that is OK in our society. And, people are so brainwashed that they never even think about it. In the re-education classes we have at work, these are called "protected groups". If you are not a member of one of these protected groups you can not be the victim of racism or discrimination. If it's racist, then it's racist: doesn't matter who you are or what group you belong to.
Let's use that thing on top of our necks.

 

[Art Eatman]

There's a really big difference between somebody selling WW II artifacts and including German or Japanese material, and somebody displaying a Nazi flag as a symbol of his beliefs as he sells Nazi stuff.

I've always believed in "Know Your Enemy", which is why I've read "Mein Kampf", some of Lenin's stuff, and Karl Marx. Reading the "Turner Diaries" or the author's second book (I forget the title) and browsing such websites as "Stormfront" is just part of having some feel for what/how the weirdly-people think. I guess nowadays, checking out Jihadist stuff might be worthwhile, although I think I know as much as I need to about them...

Art

 

[BobTheTomato]

Maybe we should let the UN regulate it. Then there will be no problems in the world........

 

[Phetro]

Bah...don't buy it. I wouldn't. The best way to protest a thing is to deny its makers your money. And let's face it: The Turner Diaries is not exactly your household-name book, either--certainly not even well-known enough to be a threat to anyone. So people not buying it has worked.

But banning it at gunshows is just as much an infringement of rights as is banning guns. You can't say "I believe in freedom of speech" and then have a "but" anywhere afterwards. If there are restrictions, there is no freedom, now is there?

(No, yelling "fire" in theaters should not be illegal either--if people are dumb enough to trample each other over some idiot yelling "fire" when there's obviously no fire, it's the Darwin award for all of them.)

 

[wingnutx]

A private business (mall, gun show) deciding what can be displayed or marketed at their function is not censorship.

 

[gwalchmai]

Not care what the antis say? Well, in Marshmallow Fairy Land we wouldn't have to care what anyone else thinks. Here in the real world there are things like public opinion. If people like you support and encourage Nazi bastards you are going to turn fence sitters and decent pro-gunners into antis. If right and wrong don't affect you at least self-interest should make a dent.

So since I disagree with you I "support and encourage Nazi bastards". That's right out of the playbook, isn't it?

But let's just address the fence sitters and "decent" pro-gunners. Won't they be turned into antis when they see "assault rifles" being sold at shows? What about "high capacity magazines" and "cop killer bullets"? Before you're done you can only sell at gun shows what Mama Brady says is OK. I don't see that as being in my self-interest.

 

[Phetro]

What frightens me about these threads is how effective the brain washing is. When a thread like this is started, people wait in line simply to post that they are not racist. They aren't adding anything to the thread: they just want to publically state that they are not racist.

Man! Talk about hitting the nail on the head...that sums up about 99% of the sheople right there. I would be ashamed of myself if my mind were so simple as to suffer from that bit of social engineering. But propaganda has convinced the masses that anything less than publicly condemning racism is unacceptable.

They also condemn the people who disagree--apparently "to each his own" isn't something they practice...at least not in public. "No...there should be no racism because a bunch of people said it's unfair and doesn't make sense, so let's condemn whoever disagrees, and try to censor them so it looks like they don't exist!" Come on. The fact of the matter is, these sheep had no opinion on racism before they were told what to think by Big Brother and Big Media: their two sources of "information" and "facts."

I personally don't care what anyone believes--whether they're racist, neutral, or anti. Why does anyone care what anyone else thinks? I actually believe in that Constitution that protects everyone's rights to believe whatever they want, and speak their minds, whatever their opinion.

 

[mike101]

Banning Nazis

The Turner Diaries shoud absolutely be banned from gun shows. The last thing gun owners in this country need right now, is to be associated with the hate-spewing morons who subscribe to this garbage.

Real Nazi memorabilia from WWII is a valid collectable. WWII was the biggest event in all of human history. I personally know people who lived through the Nazi occupation of Copenhagen, who hated the Germans, but still have a collection of Nazi artifacts. I don't believe, however, that they would approve of flying the Swastika under any circumstances. Neither do I. The fact that WWII ended 60 years ago does not make these people any less the enemy.

I realize that there is a First Ammendment in place, to protect the rights of everyone, even these Nazi/Klan idiots. However, it seems to me that since this country fought a terrible war to rid the world of the Nazi threat, we should reserve the right to ban their literature, and to consider their espousal of Nazi philosophy as treasonous behavior.

People all over the world died by the millions to rid our planet of the Nazis. As far as I am concerned, they have no rights.

Am I mistaken, or was the Klan outlawed in this country at one time? If we can outlaw the Klan, we can outlaw the Nazis.