Thinking straight on martial arts

Status
Not open for further replies.
D

dave3006

member
Joined
Jul 18, 2003
Messages
898
All systems are not created equal. We like to get the warm feel goods and say ridiculous things like "It is not the fighter, it is the art". Or some other stupid thing like that. Don't be afraid the discriminate. Your life or your facial structure depends on it.

Discrimination and judgement is good. Some arts work better than others because they are based on better principles and better training. This is not mean. This is the truth.

If you think they are all the same, I would like to introduce you to a brand new martial art. It is call "Finger-do". It was handed down from an ancient sage who had a moment of insight from the gods. The students train for hours extending their left pinky finger in a variety of secret katas with hidden meanings. The core principle is to stop an attacker by hitting him in the left nostril and pentrating deeply in to the attackers brain. It requires years of training and perfect timing. The students train with cooperating partners because it is soo deadly. Everyone trains 7 days a week for 5 hours a day.

I guess since this system is a style, it must be valid. If you find the right teacher or if the student is good, it would work wouldn't it?


WHAT YOU BELIEVE CAN GET YOU HURT OR KILLED. ALL SYSTEMS ARE NOT EQUAL.
 
BTW, I wholeheartedly agree. There's a boatload of crap out there.

Think critically, be as objective as you can and do everything you can to test your techniques in as realistic a manner as possible.
 
True enough. It is more to the point, however, to say that not all schools or teachers are the same.

And even if it makes you cringe and think of PC, the old adage is not intended to mean that the art (or the weapon) does not matter at all. It is only meant to express that the person matters much, much more than any of these things. That's true.

(Besides, the way you wrote it would mean the opposite. . . . .) ;)
 
I studied Kuk Sool Wan, the Korean martial art, for one semester.

I quit mainly because it was all "art" and not much "martial."

Learning I could kick a target higher than my head was good stuff.

Listening to Korean theories about Chi in regards to which side men and women should lie on during streching exercises wasn't so cool.

It is my opinion that too many of the "martial arts" focus too much on philosophies and world views and religion and metaphysics instead of what to do when somebody attacks you with a tire tool.....at least in how they are taught in the US.

I already know what my personal philosophies and religious beliefs are, and am not looking for new ones.

I saw a famous Dutch martial arts expert who actually had to kill a man once in a bar fight when he worked as a bouncer. (Vicious blow to the side of the head that partially ripped the man's ear off. He lated died in a coma)

He said that the problem with the way martial arts are taught today is that kata takes up little space, requires little effort on the part of the "master" and the hours pass by and the student fees roll up. And all the students learn for their money is hours and hours of kata.

hillbilly
 
...the problem with the way martial arts are taught today is that kata takes up little space, requires little effort on the part of the "master" and the hours pass by and the student fees roll up. And all the students learn for their money is hours and hours of kata.
Click to expand...

You're right. Kata that never gets put into action is a useless and expensive passion.
 
True enough that some "styles" don't teach effective fighting techniques, but to classify an individual school as worthwhile or fluff based on the name of the style being taught is foolish.

I am somewhat biased here. I hold black belt ranking in Tae Kwon Do. I freely admit that the notion of Tae Kwon Do being an "ancient" martial art is bunk. I also know that the current practice of denigrating TKD as worthless is idiotic. It DOES depend on the shcool and the instructor.

I began my martial arts journey in 1974. TKD was the only school available within a 45 mile radius of my home. For you neophytes, however, be aware that TKD in 1974 and TKD in 2003 bear little or no resemblence to each other. Yes, TKD in 1974 emphasized kicking more than other styles, but our particular organization recommended 50% / 50% hands and feet. Kicks were never to be used above the waist in combat as it was unrealistic. A significant portion of class time was spent on conditioning, i.e. full powered blocks against full-powered punches and kicks. We also spent time on "slipping" blows as well and recognized that this was usually superior to hard blocks. Sparring was "semi" contact and at that time gloves and booties were unheard of. Kata was practiced, but recognized as being only a way to refine the "technical" side of techniques.

As I and my friends achieved our dan rankings, we realized that TKD was only one way of many. We have explored Judo, Aikido, Uechi-Ryu, Kyokushinkai, and Okinawan and modern weapons training.

I have to agree with a statement attributed to the late great Bruce Lee. "... a punch is just a punch and a kick is just a kick."
 
Systems are not the be-all-end-all for a fighter. The fighter may use the system as a basic structure. But it is a skeleton, nothing more, nothing less. It is up to the fighter to learn out how build the real body of his skill set. How do you do this? Fight as realistically as possible in training.

For example, I know that Dave likes BJJ. BJJ is okay but it doesn't teach you to deal with some very real threats that one may face on "the street". So it is fine to use BJJ as a base, but you need to figure out effective ways to deal with the things they don't teach you. For example: I've wrestled with BJJ folk and they don't really like it when you start twisting their pinky finger or sticking your thumb into their eye sockets. They REALLY don't like it if you bring a concealed knife drone to the event.

The art is just the skeleton, repeat after me :D
 
Daniel Florey is right. No art is complete or perfect. BJJ does not cover everything you need. I do not think the poking and biting thing is much of a distraction to a trained grappler. However, he is right that BJJ does not cover all types of scenarios.

Here is the point you have to consider. Does your art deliver on the key area it covers? In the context of grappling, BJJ is effective and works. Likewise, does Tae Kwon Do, Tai Chi, or Karate work in the context of what they are designed to do - stand up fighting? The answer is kind of. They are better than nothing. However, a good boxer or kickboxer will take these people out because of better training and principles of the arts. This is in the context of stand up fighting.

Pick the best art for the three phases of unarmed fighting:

1. Free movement phase - punching and kicking
2. Clinch - opponents grabbing or holding in a stand up position.
3. Ground

You can be great in one phase and suck in the other two.
 
If you want to use it to get in shape, pick one, and have fun.

If you want self defense until you're too old and feeble to venture into public, spend the money you would on just a fraction of the classes on a good .38 special revolver, and some practice ammo.
 
bogie, I think part of the point of this discussion is that many shooters are coming to realize that carrying a gun often isn't enough.

To use the gun effectively you need to have time and space to deploy it. Often these must be created when confronted with an adversary at very close range (where, it seems, the majority of conflict occurs. Imagine that.). To create this time and space one often needs to use their empty hands or improvise with whatever they may have in their hands. To do this safely and more importantly effectively it helps to have practical training to give you some idea of what to do.

:p
 
ElT: 1. you live in the middle of nowhere, out there in the Big Empty Middle :D .

2. I don't Walk, only Talk. Me #1 Keyboard Commando :neener: .
 
san0, don't I wish! If I did live somewhere like that, maybe the Western Wastes, I'd have more room to shoot. My sissy urban neighbors take a dim view of El Tejon running transition drills in my postage stamp sized backyard.:D

Something about the noise and rics hitting their garage. Geez, neighbors!

I don't walk either, I crawl.:D
 
It's not about having fun or being in shape. It is about winning.
Click to expand...

If you don't tell me what it's all about for me, my kids, or my mother, I won't tell you what it's all about for you. Deal? :rolleyes:

Winning is great, but at the moment, getting in shape drastically increases my ability to win.

And of course, you don't shoot for fun. Right? It's not about popping balloons, shooting is about winning!
 
Winning is great, but at the moment, getting in shape drastically increases my ability to win.
Click to expand...

No doubt :) .

Give those fat karate guys, hypothetically speaking, a heavy bag and have 'em hammer the piss outta it for 60 seconds.

Then, immediately have them tell you again how fitness isn't that important in a 'real' fight. If they can talk that is; you may have to wait a while...

:rolleyes:

Edit:

The term 'fat karate guy' could just as easily be replaced with 'pencil necked wushu kid' or 'saggy tai chi master'. It is in no way meant to discriminate against actual fat karate guys. I sure wouldn't wanna make 'em mad at me.
 
Being in shape is the by product of training, not the goal. For some, a modest amount of conditioning is needed to even begin.

I run 5 miles in the morning, do at least 100 situps per day. I lift weights at lunch and train BJJ in the evenings. I am 41 and weigh the exact same (165lbs) as I did when I wrestled in high school. I keep up with and beat many of the 20 something year old tatooed, pierced kids in my class.

For me, being in shape is not an option or a choice. I just make it happen.
 
Is it really the system? I remember taking a self defense class and the teacher was showing us what to do when someone grabs your wrist. So we would practice on each other while the teacher helped us out. I was paired with someone about the same height but not build. He grabbed my wrist I got out of it. I grab his.... try and try and try he did my paws were just too strong for him for any technique (other than a swift kick in the nuts LOL).
 
Being in shape is the by product of training, not the goal.
Click to expand...

Wait, let's try this again. I think I can make that make sense.

Don, for me, being in shape is the by product of training, not the goal.
Click to expand...
There, now it's a true statement. Before, it was your subjective opinion stated as fact, and that's just irritating.

Seriously, Dave, I wouldn't lie to you. There really ARE people on the planet who have different goals than you. There are even people who have similar goals but want to go about achieving them in different ways. What is so difficult about that?
For me, being in shape is not an option or a choice. I just make it happen.
Click to expand...
Shenanigans! If you make it happen, how is it not a choice or an option? I don't have a lunch hour, by the way. I eat lunch with my class so I can help them eat. On most weekdays I get up at 5:30, get the kids up and ready for school, commute to work, sometimes get some lifting in at school, work till 4:00, then drive across town, change clothes and clock in by 5:00, and work until 10:30. Then I go home and fall in bed to do it all again. It's only recently I've been thinking I can afford to cut back a few days a week at the second job so I can go back to the dojang, hopefully with the kids so I can see them every once in awhile. I think it's great that you make time to run, lift and go to your BJJ class. Heck, I think it's really nice that you have a BJJ gym nearby. I'm not being sarcastic, I really do think that's great. But it is not me. It doesn't work for my life. I am not a 41-year-old uber-athlete who thinks the only reason to train is winning. I'm a 25-year-old, overweight father of two very troubled children who's barely scraping by through the clever scheme of working 65-75 hours per week. There's a hell of a lot more to my life than combat, and gaining a lot more combat proficiency than I have while having some fun and losing some weight seems like a pretty good idea to me. I could, I suppose, sit on my butt and refuse to do anything unless it's the ultimate in death-dealing and mayhem, but that doesn't really seem productive.

Your way is not the only way. The longer you try to prove it is the only way, the less sense it makes.
 
I have been thinking for a while about how to respond to this thread.

While it is true that some martial arts use outdated training methods and fail to address modern attacks.

However the student plays a major part in his education as well. It doesn't matter if the student has all the potential of Bruce Lee if he is to lazy to come to class more then once a month. It doesn't matter if the student learns all the techniques Royce Gracie knows if he is to afraid to use his skill when he needs it. (cowardice happens) It doesn't matter if the student is as ruthless as Colonel(?) Fairbairn if he is to stupid to know when he should block a punch and when he should get in there and stomp his attacker.

I study martial arts. By this I mean I go to class 3 times a week (more often if I could) and train with an experienced instructor and my fellow students. I also spend time reading about the history and philosophy of my art. I spend time on the internet, watching the news, talking to people, and reading books researching crime and victimization, to learn about how criminals attack victims. I do some basic exercise to stay in shape. I also try to research the mindset of people who have been in self defense situations or emergencies to try and understand where your mind needs to be in order to make it home alive. I keep my mind and more importantly my eyes and ears open to what people with more or even different experience have to say, I have worked with arts other then the one I study and have learned something new in every instance.

I would suggest that if a person approaches the martial arts from that perspective, the selection of the art they study can come down to personal choice. I have heard accounts of people using every martial art from Tai Chi to the most modern Reality Based Self Defense systems to defend themselves and make it home alive. I even read in a newspaper about a fellow in Japan who defended himself from an attacking bear with a judo throw.

Certainly there are arts that will make you a proficient fighter quicker then others, but that doesn't mean the others are worthless or that you can't use them if you have the appropriate mindset and drive.
 
You can use a golf club as a hammer. However, that does not change the fact that it was designed to hit little white balls.

Don, your excuses at first sound compelling. But, I have to come back to the point that martial arts are about winning. Period. It sounds like you are not winning in your personal life either. Instead of focusing on the excuses. I would find a way to win in your personal life. Re-arranging your finances to work only one job, getting retrained to make more money so that you only have one job, getting help from family or friends, losing the weight by eating better, moving, or doing anything to get control.

This is what I mean about winning. You are not in control. Find a way to get there or you have to suffer more. The causes may or may not have been your fault. But, there is always a way to win. You have to grab life by the throat and shake it until you get what you need.

P.S. Sharing emotionally in your pain is not true compasion. Compasion is finding a way out of the pain.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

N
  • Locked
martial arts
2
Replies
43
Views
1K
Dnaltrop
D
C
  • Locked
Study Martial Arts.
2 3 4 5
Replies
122
Views
6K
Don Gwinn
D
D
  • Locked
Myth - "It is not the art, it is the fighter"
2
Replies
26
Views
2K
Nippy
N
T
  • Locked
Martial Arts School Help
2 3
Replies
52
Views
2K
roo_ster
roo_ster
D
  • Locked
Internal Martial Arts
Replies
6
Views
537
Nippy
N
Back
Top