martial arts

[Trent]

Damn that looks like it was painful!

Only other thing I have to add is training for a few sessions, a few weeks, or even a few months will not make you proficient enough for combat.

In fact, training for a few years might not make you proficient enough for combat, but you'll probably be able to at least not get pummeled badly in a self defense scenario. Hopefully, by then, your situational-awareness will be up to snuff and you'll actively avoid confrontations as a rule. The best fight is no fight at all; and anyone who's ever been in and later documented a hand to hand, knife, sword, or gunfight will state that simple fact with certainty and truth.

I was attacked with a knife once, and count myself very lucky that I was sober and the attacker was not. If he was just a hair faster or I a hair slower, I'd be dead. As it turns out, elbow strikes do have a great terminal effect when done properly; he was unconscious and missing a tooth. But he got inside my guard, and did it fast - faster than I could THINK. Elbows aren't my first choice when sparring, but I responded on reflex with one.

You have to train until whatever art you are studying becomes integrated in to YOU.

THEN - and only then - is it effective. Because fights don't happen at the speed of "if you do, this I do this". You don't have the luxury of time or thought. Fights happen at the speed of RIGHT NOW.

While I haven't been in a gun fight, and I hope to hell I never am, I imagine those aren't much different. So I practice, practice, and practice some more. No thought required anymore.

 

[tuj]

Damn that looks like it was painful!

It was. The paramedics were worthless when they showed up; they didn't think it was broken and treated me like I was faking an injury to get pain meds. They didn't give me anything and made me climb onto the stretcher myself, didn't even bother turning on the lights or the sirens for the ride to the hospital. At that point I was close to going into shock from the pain (actually hoping I would pass out, because it hurt like nothing else I have ever experienced). I asked the ER doc why the para's were so bad and he said it was because they were not used to seeing a broken femur from a sports injury. But it can and does happen, and yes I drink my milk and there's nothing wrong with my bones and I'm fairly young.

Everything got all better once they saw it on the x-ray, said 'oh *****' and dropped the morphine quickly into my IV.

Anyway, I was on offense and about to get the tap when my femur snapped. Anything can happen in a real fight. Best to avoid it to begin with.

 

[vc1911]

-all pretty good posts!

So if you haven't noticed yet you need exposure to a little bit of everything...find camp/dojo/facility close to you and jump in, I've trained TKD, wrestling, boxing, Aikijujitsu (traditional aikido), Judo, BJJ, shorinji kempo and Muay Thai.

Muay thai covers ALL practical striking period, train muay thai no matter what else you do!

The catching/passive arts (aikido-kung fu) and the big flashy arts (taekwondo-capoeira) and anything else you see in movies will get your ass kicked.

BJJ is the most practical (and ubiquitous) grappling style around now. GO to a school and jump in a class, just do it. If you can find a Kodokan Judo dojo go there too, Standup grappling is often overlooked at brazilian schools. If you know a college wrestler train with him too!
BJJ is easier to learn and rather low impact (compared to judo).

Just go to a gym, get in there nothing matter more the mat time!
grappling is addicting

 

[MachIVshooter]

Your friend needs to learn to wrestle.

That was part of the problem; I was a wrestler, I know how to flip a take-down. And it exemplifies the point that when all bets are off and you have no idea what fighting style (if any) your opponent uses, you just do whatever you can. There's no question that technique can help, but as I said, you have integrate the style you've learned and adapt to the fight, or losing is a very real possibility. Hubris because of a rank one has obtained with whatever art can easily cost them the fight.

Bladed boxing stances are very ripe for all kinds or proven take downs. They also make it impossible to block leg kicks.

That depends. I'm 5'10" with a 6'5" armspan, and my arms are 32" from axilla to fingertip. My fighting stance is not as upright as a professional boxer; More a modified wrestling ready stance with fists fencing my face. Very few people have enough leg to get inside without taking a blow to the head or torso, or getting grappled.

 

[robMaine]

I always chime in on these threads to share the most important aspect of any training... to get ready for a SD situation you need to train in an environment where you hit and get hit, and I mean actually hit.... not point sparring, not forms, but full speed sparring. Otherwise you will be shaken up the first time an attacker actually hits you.

With that out the way, the best combination I have found is Muay Thai, BJJ, Judo, Wrestling and American boxing. You can find this all at an MMA gym, just make sure you go to a gym that also focuses on SD and not just sport. Pure sport MMA and BJJ is dangerous in a street fight.

 

[NWGlocker]

Wow. A lot of things to think over. I'll have to see what works for a middle-age person who's in good cardio shape, but not too flexible, and needs to lose about 10 pounds to hit ideal weight. Power-driven techniques might not work for me since I don't have much upper body strength. Should have mentioned this in the beginning since it might steer me in another direction than someone half my age.

 

[conw]

Girodin's posts on page 1 are good stuff.

Think of MMA or a good foundation in fighting as a delivery system.

If you learn how to drive a car from a racing school you wouldn't complain about the lack of stoplights on the track. If you learn how to shoot from an IDPA grandmaster you wouldn't complain about the lack of hostage rescue tactics. But fundamentals remain fundamentals. Does anyone think an IDPA champ can't learn further tactics, or a pro race car driver can't figure out how to deal with stoplights? Environment changes, goals change, fundamentals are fundamentals...

Go find the best people, learn from them, shape the delivery system to your goals. The best fighters are MMA guys, and the best coaches for fighting are MMA coaches. You can get the "cherry on top" from a self defense focused seminar, but the foundation takes much longer to build.

 

[vc1911]

^^^that's good analysis and approach.

Find a gym and jump in!

 

[Girodin]

That was part of the problem; I was a wrestler, I know how to flip a take-down. And it exemplifies the point that when all bets are off and you have no idea what fighting style (if any) your opponent uses, you just do whatever you can.

This is why one needs skills in all three realms, standing wrestling, and ground. My personal theory is that to maximize your odds in any given fight you have to be able to control two of the three. You can be an absurdly good grappler but if you cannot get the fight to the ground it does you now good. A world class striker has almost all those skills neutralized if he or she is taken to the ground. If you're superior at and can control any two of the three you can play to strengths. If you are better at striking and grappling you have good odds where ever the fight goes and thus controlling the wrestling component is not really as crucial. If you are better and either striking or grappling as well as wrestling you can often dictate where they fight goes (either keep it standing or score a take down) and play to your strong suit. Styles make fights.

Very few people have enough leg to get inside without taking a blow to the head or torso, or getting grappled.

Proper leg kicks are set up and one also moves in a way that makes counter strikes very difficult. I've trained with guys that are as tall as 6'8" and can land leg kicks whilst avoid counter punches (I'm about 5' 10"). This isn't some super unique to me skill. If one is decent at Thai they can do it, and I have seen a number of much shorter opponents successful leg kick taller guys. I recently cornered a 5'7" fighter against a guy I would guess was 6' 2" or 3". The 5'7" guy tore up his taller opponent with kicks. Extreme differences in height and reach make things tougher of course. A reach advantage certainly is not going to in its self protect one from legs kicks though. The issue with a bladed stance and leg kicks is that you have to turn your leg too far back the other way to take the kick on right part of your leg for a block. One really cannot block leg kicks out of that stance. Even if you can get the leg up the blow tends to land in areas where damage is done. That's why people don't stand that way any time kicks to the legs are allowed.

Kicking almost always makes one more vulnerable to take downs. Set ups and good foot work combined with proper kicking technique mitigate the risks.

 

[Girodin]

I'll have to see what works for a middle-age person who's in good cardio shape, but not too flexible, and needs to lose about 10 pounds to hit ideal weight. Power-driven techniques might not work for me since I don't have much upper body strength. Should have mentioned this in the beginning since it might steer me in another direction than someone half my age.

All kinds of people have come to the gyms I've trained at that are much much more out of shape than the picture you paint. I cannot tell you how many people I've had come and start training muay thai with me and lose 30+ pounds in relatively short order. One of those guys is actually a pro fighter now (along with having a full time job and 4 kids). Flexibility, weight lose, and increased strength are the natural results of training. They don't come overnight but neither do fighting skills.

 

[tuj]

Some of the best advice I've read about fighting comes from The Man, Bruce Lee, in his book the Tao of Jeet Kune Do. There is also a companion book with lots of pictures and practical examples (its orange, I forget the name).

Basically it boils down to this:
-if you are in a real fight, your attacker is trying to kill or maim you.
-there are two primary targets in such a fight; eyes and groin
-there are a number of secondary targets, such as the throat.
-attack the primary targets any way you can, then escape.

Most people are expecting punches in a fight, not an eye-gouge. Fight dirty, fight hard, and fight to win. But JKD emphasizes that fighting is not 'sport', it's your-life-is-on-the-line. It's a lot like Krav in that respect.

 

[Nushif]

Don't reject one form just because it looks impractical- i think it will still certainly help you immensely in a self-defense application.

I did a couple years of Ed Parker Kenpo, one of Haidong Gumdo and have dinked around with others, as well as some Combatives.
And all I can say is: read the above. There is precious little difference between a Kenpo, Eagle Claw Kung-Fu (GREAT FUN!) and Combatives arm bar/break when you're on the ground, out of breath, sweaty, gross and high on adrenaline.

My only advice would be to avoid distinctly sporting styles titled "Olympic HaidongKeJudo" or somesuch. Scoring for points and fighting is different.

 

[mdauben]

Can anyone point me to websites that can introduce a noob to how to find a good trainer/studio/dojo and how to choose a system? There's a lot of junk out there and it's hard to figure out what direction to go.

Its hard to point out something without getting down to specific schools and instructors. I've got a couple decades of formal MA experience. Mostly Judo, Aikido and a little Goju-ryu Karate. Even in the same system/art, some places place more or less emphasis on real world self defence. In the end my usual recomendation is to do your research on the styles offered locally, and then observe a class or two.

unless you're able to dedicate several hours a week you're better off concentrating on basic cardio fitness and taking a few courses like Southnarc's.

This! There are a few simple tricks you can learn from books or weekend seminars, but most MA techniques require hours of training to really master, and regular training to stay fresh. If you don't have the time or inclination to spend a couple hours twice a week or more, you are probably wasting your time as far as developing usable MA skills go.

Grappling: this is where BJJ is king.

Even though I have spent years studying Judo, I would have to agree with this. Now, I have never seen a BJJ grappling technique that I have not learned it Judo, but the issue is most Judo dojos are very sport oriented and in tournaments they activly discourage groundwork, so most dojos don't spend a lot of time on it. I myself have gone out of my way to learn groundwork, but I had to do a lot of "independent study" to develop those skills. SImply studdying BJJ probably would have been easier.

 

[conw]

For anyone looking for a good acid test for gyms Google Matt Thornton aliveness. Be sure to watch the YouTube vids and read the blog too.

 

[Cosmoline]

Don't forget hatha yoga, tai chi or similar training as a foundation for flexibility and body-awareness. Those started out as very ancient martial arts. They obviously aren't too practical for direct application to a fight, but the skills of balance and mind-body focus are extremely valuable. Also it helps reducing injuries in the over-40 crowd ;-)

 

[Dnaltrop]

I spent a good part of my teens Fencing (foil/epee/saber), made the attempt in JKD and discovered how truly badly i'd torn my left shoulder years earlier. What I learned , as far as permanent skills go, greatly improved balance, how to fall properly, better reflexes. Wish my body wasn't coming apart like it is now but I put the Falling training to VERY good use these days.

You should see me pirouette through the living room when the Dog, 2 of the kids and Grandma are running around and one of my hips come out. Eat your heart out Baryshnikov!

I used to do Yoga, but my doctors forbid me to continue it, (Naturally Too Flexible) . I mostly keep myself in shape by just tensing my muscles against themselves without motion. You can do it anywhere, but be careful, you'd be surprised how badly you can overpressure the body if you push too hard.

However, I still keep up on the fencing skills though as much as possible... albeit not with a featherweight thin stabbing blade, or a Steel bullwhip (saber fencers are sadists or masochists, pick one ) .

I practice with one of my 6-7 lb steel/wood canes now. After years of carrying one everywhere (before CCW) , it's as light as a feather to me.

Eldest has asked for Aikido, (of her own volition) Hopefully we can get her going sooner rather than later.

Dang Wrestlers/Grapplers... You guys are No joke! In my teens I had a 5'1" friend who could tie my lanky 6'5" keester in knots at will. He'd run at me, bounce off my knee, swing around my neck like a monkey ( literally making monkey noises) and topple me like a Tree for laughs. Great lesson there though. It's not the size of the dog in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog.

 

[BLB68]

Wow. A lot of things to think over. I'll have to see what works for a middle-age person who's in good cardio shape, but not too flexible, and needs to lose about 10 pounds to hit ideal weight.

You don't sound terribly out of shape to me. As long as you don't have any serious orthopedic problems, jump in!

 

[Cosmoline]

Didn't Bruce Lee suggest fencing as the most practical martial art for people to take up?

I used to do Yoga, but my doctors forbid me to continue it, (Naturally Too Flexible)

You know they actually have a system of stretches for that now. I've got similar issues with hyperextension, and six months of yoga have really helped tune the muscles and lock down the joint. Done properly, it isn't about maxing out your flexibility so much as learning precision balance and movement. My instructor has these stretches that flex and strengthen precision spots inside of the joints. It's pretty cool, and it works.

Also just discovered that my hippy-dippy looking yoga bag is the perfect size for an AR-15. "No, that's just my yoga stuff. See the little swans?"

 

[Dnaltrop]

Lee was actually an Epee fencer before he created JKD. Part of why I attempted the transition. Same skillset, (shorter range ) More room for footwork other than that teeny, tiny platform... same instant reactions to tiny openings for a single strike.

In Epee the entire body is a legal target, and you watch everything at once (if you can)

Wish I could have continued, but my joints just couldn't take the stress.