martial arts

[NWGlocker]

The thread about the "fence" is reinforcing what I've always known-- that I know almost nothing about how to integrate my firearm into a more generalized means for me and the family to defend ourselves from close-up aggressors. I said "martial arts" but I realize that's a loaded phrase. A couple of items I wanted to raise:

Anyone here students of the various self defense / martial arts? My goal is to learn movement, countermoves, methods that complement my firearm knowledge.

Can anyone point me to websites that can introduce a noob to how to find a good trainer/studio/dojo and how to choose a system? There's a lot of junk out there and it's hard to figure out what direction to go.

 

[hso]

If you search for terms "martial arts", "Krav Maga", "taekwondo", "hapkido", or any of the other names of arts you'll find tons of threads on this. There are advocates of specific arts in those threads and there are advocates of none of them that will recommend that unless you're able to dedicate several hours a week you're better off concentrating on basic cardio fitness and taking a few courses like Southnarc's.

The upshot is that a firearm is just a tool and a person that only has the skill to use only one tool isn't going to be able to deal with all problems as well as one with a couple skills to use different tools they're well versed in using. Of course the best solution is to know how to avoid situations where you're forced to use those tools and skills.

 

[JShirley]

The first, most vital idea is that "self defence" includes all sorts of ways to keep you safe, not just ways to fight or kill. Insurance, fire extinguishers, and seat belts are all self-defence tools.

That being said, not everyone gets into a fight or struggles to survive a violent physical assault. But, everyone falls. Your first priority should be finding an art that teaches how to hit the ground without injury. This skill has saved me from serious injury and perhaps even death for the last 18 years, including through a couple of years as an infantryman, and two combat deployments.

John

 

[Njal Thorgeirsson]

Hello,

I'm a first degree black belt in taekwondo.

I can't really recommend any websites or comment on other martial arts.

But I can make a few things clear. First of all, regardless of whether or not the method you choose is specifically for self defense or not, they all take a lot of time and effort to become proficient at. But one thing I certainly want to comment on is that while martial arts look fancy and impractical- they don't (or at least shouldn't) look fancy in most self defense applications. Fundamentally, martial arts, in my opinion, serve to make your reflexes (and fundamental hand-to-hand combat skills) better in an indirect way. Don't reject one form just because it looks impractical- i think it will still certainly help you immensely in a self-defense application.

Also, martial arts are somewhat misunderstood by many. I've met plenty of novices who think they're ready for a real fight because they've practiced some fancy ways to bend your arm or grab your throat- trying those things in a real fight is useless unless you're already being grabbed- it is vitally important to keep your distance in a real fight. It is important to be extremely conservative with the complexity of what you do. Simple and fast/unexpected is the only way you can certainly effectively defend yourself.

So to sum things up- don't choose a martial art just because it looks like it caters to self-defense. Often, trying to physically grab your opponent will greatly endanger you if you aren't extremely well practiced. So I certainly wouldn't simply recommend a high-contact form (judo etc.) over a low contact one (taekwondo, karate etc.). It will not necessarily prepare you better, and might give you a false sense of confidence. Taekwondo has served me very well.

 

[NWGlocker]

The first, most vital idea is that "self defence" includes all sorts of ways to keep you safe, not just ways to fight or kill. Insurance, fire extinguishers, and seat belts are all self-defence tools.

That being said, not everyone gets into a fight or struggles to survive a violent physical assault. But, everyone falls. Your first priority should be finding an art that teaches how to hit the ground without injury. This skill has saved me from serious injury and perhaps even death for the last 18 years, including through a couple of years as an infantryman, and two combat deployments.

John

Good reminder about the falling. The videos in the fence thread don't do justice to the high chance that some of those folks had a double head injury-- one from the punch and one from when their head hits the ground.

Would judo be one of the disciplines that has a bit of focus on that issue?

 

[conw]

I like the "combat sport" tested martial arts because:

1) Training them to get better than other practitioners is one of the primary goals, and it's hard for people to get and retain students if they are not measurably good (as in, students winning competitions) teachers

2) "Street" or "self defense" are environments or goals, not styles - any "street style" or "SD style" is prone to collapsing under the weight of its intentions, and any honest teacher will generally give credit to actual fighting systems and focus on the fundamentals THEN cater the delivery to the appropriate environment or goal of the student

3) By being eclectic you get to focus on different 'ranges,' typically expressed as striking, clinch, and ground. Farther than striking is running away, or shooting distance. An intimate understanding of the core arts taught in MMA classes will make you proficient at any range in a fight. MMA is not a system or style but rather a competitive filtering system that necessitates proficiency at all ranges (except shooting, obviously).

4) Working at various levels of resistance UP TO fully resisting with training partners is crucial, fundamental, vital, I can't emphasize it enough! If your MA gym NEVER does this, it's not as good as one that does. If they do it frequently and in smart ways (i.e. dosing the resistance to the student's ability to assimilate the experience), that is more important than what "art." The thing is, the ability to deal with someone trying their hardest to stop you from dealing with them is THE fundamental goal of self defense AND sportive arts. SD-oriented training often glosses over this and does not do a great job of working with real resistance.

I would say start off doing some resistance training and cardio a few times a week, take a Southnarc class if you can (this will give you a fundamental structure and understanding of the 'street' environment and 'self-defense' goal), and during the time of general personal development, sample some "free week" trial periods at various martial arts gyms but don't join until you have tried quite a few.

The thing is, there are only so many ways human bodies can tangle, disentangle, hurt one another, and defend from attempts to hurt. MMA is Darwinian in that many arts can potentially be used if the practitioner wants to use them, but ultimately only a few, fairly refined ones, are successful. By all means dabble but I think you will be successful with MMA striking/boxing for stand-up, and BJJ for the ground. People will say "But you don't want to be on the ground..." - exactly the point! If you train there, you will be better able to stand up, prevent from being injured, and defend there.

Again, Southnarc's training is invaluable to help you shape the training you receive to best further your own goals. The BJJ/boxing advice (some wrestling thrown in is good too if you can find it) is canonical - people who have had these do better in his classes than people who haven't. So, if you want the most bang for your buck, do ECQC first. If you want to do a more gradual approach work on fitness, and sample different MA gyms until you find one you like, and take ECQC as you are able.

As a side benefit, the combat "arts" that require greater fitness levels will also pay off by reducing your risk (which is more likely than being assaulted and injured) of health issues due to a sedentary lifestyle.

 

[NWGlocker]

Thanks for the replies so far. Choosing which direction to go has been even more challenging than choosing a firearm. Insurance, eating/staying healthy, fire and disaster planning-- all that're in the books.

It's this thread where I want to admit I'm pretty deficient. I took a simunitions class at Cascadia Tactical-- the scenario that played out was two people posing as "cable company" workers walked into my "home" and I allowed them to get close enough to stab me. After 3 weeks I still have the bruise from the plastic knife that tagged me in my ribs. A real god eye opener for me. Yes, I learned there were a lot of things to do differently. But what if an aggressor ever gets that close in real life?

I'm planning to look at some local outfits and yes, I don't plan to take a few web seminars, live classes and say "I'm good". This'll be a lifelong pursuit, something I hope to share with my toddler daughter when she gets older.

 

[JShirley]

NWG,

Yes, judo tends to teach hitting the ground more than most MA. It also is easier to find than some MA disciplines, and can teach important lessons about balance that will be very useful.

The trap of MMA is when it over-focuses on ground fighting, and under-focuses on weapons. Ultimately, MMA are sports, and it's important to remember that if you choose to train in them.

John

 

[poolingmyignorance]

Having worked perviously as an instructor in BJJ/MMA.. I'd like to adress a "point" I hear again and again.."You don't want to be on the ground", because if there are multiple attackers your screwed. Yes and no.
If there are multiple attackers and I mean attackers..not potential attackers. I'm speaking directly after contact is made. Chances are if your not quickly swarmed and ko'd your gonna end up on the ground. You'd best know how to manuver once you get there. People have to be taught how to fight on the ground, it doesn't come naturally so submission/postitional training can give you a HUGE advatage there. Basic freestyle wrestling (while it was effective in the UFC with superior level athlets) isn't really sufficent for most senarios.
I'm not telling you to flop on your back and scream "get in my guard", or anything, I just believe that ignoring that entire arena is potentially a grave mistake. I will say the best idea is to get to where your opponets cannot attack from multiple angles. And try to flee from that direction.
But if your attacker has taken you down... he's down with you.. he's a partial shield. And that has it's ins and outs. I'm not going to sit and debate this for anybody who might want to, simply becasue the "Which martial art is best" pretty much equates to 9mm vs 40s&w vs 45. ( I probably wouldn't choose thai chi, though)
To the OP's question. It's always best to seek professional first person instruction from a qualified instructor particuarlly in the business of firearms training. There aren't many schools that I know of that implemnt firarms into their training. Other than disarms and basic retention. Thats all we taught, no intgration of them to more complex senarios.
I don't really recommend using the internet or reading materials for anything other than selecting which arts or type of instruction you wish to pursue. As there are so many details to martial arts, self defence that can be lost on paper. It really is best to see it live, in person first hand, and third person, to reveal all the intricticies that are present.

 

[Harley Rider 55]

NWGlocker
I've been involved in training/teaching various arts for close to a half century. In a nutshell the "ground game" has changed self-defense as we know it. There id no one art that will make you proficient in all areas. Your wants/needs may be too broad for studyof one syatem. It appears you are looking what the majority of adults are looking for: military style
hand to hand combat training. You want the skills of SpecOps operators.

1. If you want to kill/maim/hurt someone as quickly and efficiently as possible - Krav Maga - the drawback is the total lack of a ground game.

2. Judo and traditional Jiu Jitsu will teach you to put someone on the ground and choke/submit them. It does not teach you what to do if the opponent grabs your testicles etc. Aikido will accomplish the same, but without effort. The drawback is a very steep learning curve.

3. A traditional art that can be described as MMA - Hapkido, Silat, Kajukenbo, Sambo - I would say Sambo is the more all atound art as they train alot on the ground. It's just hard to find trainers.

I hope this information helps you in your "quest to control you body in order to control another's"

"Kill Or Be Killed" - Lt. Walter Nelson, United States Army, Director of Physical Training, Miami Beach, Floida, 1942 - my father

 

[bhhacker]

BJJ,Judo, grappling arts etc are really good to know. That said, you dont want a fight to go to the ground because a good percentage of fights that do..either your friends/family is going to stomp them or the same will be done to you.

Im partial to Muay Thai because its such a brutal and efficient art. A lot of it translates to the street.

I dont like TKD (sorry guys, not trying to ruffle feathers) because while its pretty and can be effective, its just not as complete as an art as i would like it to be in street fighting. Even Olympic TKD the fighters hands are down a good chunk of the time. I once fought a kid who was very decorated in light contact karate tourneys. Not to be rude, but compared to my muay thai background, it was a joke.

As a general rule, NEVER kick above the waist. Its not worth it. I grew up in the ring, my dads owned a kickboxing school since i was 2. I was a scrappy kid and an even more hellish teenager. A lot of sport combat fighting doesnt have practical applications in real life situation. Especially after i had back surgery and lost out on being able to compete at a competitive level. I had to get smarter and meaner instead of relying on my physical attributes to keep me safe.

best bet is to try a few different styles, and glean what you can from them and "throw away" the useless stuff. That is essentially the principle of JKD. I would definitely look into Krav Maga as it is not for sport, it is for realistic self defense. Be aware of people cashing in on that name though. Make sure what youre learning is good. Also, just because you can do a technique in class doesnt mean it works on the street. Think about it, the people in your class know that move, and know what they are trained to do to comply with that move.

A person that doesnt know what the heck they are supposed to do might not even be phased with certain techniques.


Sorry about the ramble. hope you were able to get some decent info out of it and feel free to ask me all the questions youd like. With all the scam artist martial artists out there, i like to help people get good training.

 

[sidheshooter]

Since we are offering opinions, I will offer up some of mine.
my background: primarily Okinawan Goju-ryu Karate, in which I trained for decades, including having my own dojo, along with teaching at the invite of my hometown police department.

For a variety of reasons, I have left that art and branched out, gravitating towards defensive tactics and pure combatives, as opposed to the arts.

I agree that spending sometime (years) in a core traditional martial art that teaches how to fall is a fantastic idea; along with developing myelination for falling properly, traditional arts teach timing, balance, power generation, positioning, biomechanical attack cues, and a whole lot else that one can take with them into a combatives POI.

That said, straight up combatives training will most quickly impart the skills needed to survive a variety of attacks, including attacks from unskilled aggressors (no small issue if all you have ever defended against is attackers from your own style), weapons, multiple attackers, and other common street threats. Also, combative schools have no adherence to "rules"-my main beef with any "sport" style (If one wishes to learn how to best defend against a sport style, look up the rules of prohibited attacks, and make that your go-to list!). A good training program will also address bridging techniques (from verbal to empty hand or empty hand to your chosen carry weapon), as well as legal issues.

Once some basic physical skills are addressed (falling, striking, etc; as others mention, there are only so many ways for human bodies to clash) it really becomes more an issue of goals and attitude of the instuctor over choice of the core style.

Lastly, the idea of enjoying a core art and working on pure combatives are not exclusive: one can take a seminar or two from any of the names regularly mentioned on ST&T on the side while spending a few nights a week for a few years in a Judo club.

JMO and FWIW.

And, NWGlocker, I am glad that the fence thread made you think about this stuff. That's the whole reason I started it-I've been thinking about this stuff myself. As an aside, I am also in the PNW, and some of my training was undertaken on the wet side. Feel free to PM me: given that I've been dinking with this stuff since 1981, I might have met some good instructors that are close to you, depending where you live, or know of some who host reputable traveling trainers (ie: Janich, SN, Miller et al.) The northwest is a good place for this type of training.

 

[Girodin]

Fighting basically involves three skills: striking on your feet, wrestling, grappling and ground fighting. I'm going to make some statements that I'm sure will get some people in a huff. However, they are based on 12+ years of fighting, training fighters, and training in hand to hand stuff. For striking the most effective thing to study is Muay Thai, my second choice would be boxing. Muay thai is better because it has more weapons and because of clinch skills taught in muay thai. I have trained with many nationally ranked boxers. Boxer's simply don't have the clinch skills to be effective against someone whoe really knows muay thai. Another good thing about muay thai is that the very basics are relatively simple and one can become reasonable proficient in those basics in a relatively short period of time (assuming a reasonably athletic person). Both boxing and thai teach you footwork (allow the footwork for each differs in some respects). Footwork is GREATLY under appreciated by people that don't really know fighting. Training muay thai will also get you in shape. Physical conditioning is a HUGE part of a physical fight.

For the wrestling aspect basic wrestling and judo skills are the name of the game. Most MMA type gyms teach some basic wrestling. Wrestling is what allows you to stay on your feet and control where the fight takes place. Throws can also be very effective tools in a fight.

Grappling: this is where BJJ is king. I don't advocate trying to go to the ground in most instances on the street. However, you may end up there. You need to know how to fight there or you don't really know how to fight. BJJ also teaches sweeps and how to get back up.

Now each of the above have a lot of sport components. They have elements that are for sport fighting and are not as well suited for self defense, things that are more for the ring than the street. However, they also offer the foundational skills required for street application of self defense moves. If you look at shivworks stuff it looks a lot, a lot, a lot, like basic muay thai, wrestling, and jiu jitsu with street and weapons applications.

People will pitch systems supposedly created just for self defense. However, from what I have seen these often fail to teach the most basic foundational skills. Things like how to properly punch, footwork, etc. If you cannot throw a decent punch all your street applications for doing so don't matter one wit, because your punch is not effective even if it lands. I've seen this be the case for more than a few Krav Maga students. People that throw arm punches, people who generate almost no power with knee strikes because of the way they throw them, etc, etc, etc. I have even seen a number of instructors of some of the street combative systems exhibit the very same problems.

If you want to learn how to fight, find a LEGIT place that teaches legit muay thai and a place that will teach basic wrestling and BJJ. After you have the foundational skills you can turn to learning some of the more street oriented applications of those skills.

 

[smalls]

I've done a bit of wrestling, boxing, BJJ and Muay Thai.

What was said about knowing what to do when you get to the ground (because chances are it will happen) is a great point. I'm also a big fan of Muay Thai, and I hate being on the ground. I kinda had to force myself to learn BJJ and to wrestle.

 

[Mango88]

That being said, not everyone gets into a fight or struggles to survive a violent physical assault. But, everyone falls.

Try Akido, it is a skill that will aid you even as you age or become somewhat infirm. Its hard to do all that karate kicking and punching when you are old, handicapped, or just not very athletic.

 

[GEM]

If the OP is in the Pacific NW, Insights Training offers combative courses and knife courses that are integrated with firearms usage.

The courses emphasize escape from physical combat rather than how to slug it out as they are for SD and not the MA match.

Useful for practical applications. No connection to them besides taking two of those courses.

 

[sidheshooter]

Insights would be a good place to start exploring. I have not taken those particular courses, but I can vouch for Greg Hamilton as a teacher, FWIW.

 

[Girodin]

Off of Insights website:

Interesting armbar. I don't know what is going on in this phase of the instruction (i.e he might be explaining what not to do, correcting some errors, etc) but its not the pictured I'd pick to put on my sight to advertise my ground fighting class.

 

[poolingmyignorance]

Off of Insights website:

Interesting armbar. I don't know what is going on in this phase of the instruction (i.e he might be explaining what not to do, correcting some errors, etc) but its not the pictured I'd pick to put on my sight to advertise my ground fighting class.

+1

It's only okay to cross feet in that postion if BOTH ARMS are trapped inside the legs.
he's taking wieght off his opponet and leaving an arm free to leverage with!

 

[BLB68]

I don't really have anything to add except this: Fitness.

ALL martial arts require a certain level of fitness.

Many schools advertise that their arts are usable by the old, the frail, kids, women, everyone! This is a misleading bit of advertisement.

You'll need to be at least minimally fit if you want to avoid injuries and advance at a decent pace. You should be in at least fair cardio shape, have decent flexibility, and a good, strong core.

Don't expect martial arts training to bring you from being very out of shape into good condition, that only invites injuries.

If you have lower back issues, you should discuss this up front with your instructor. I had to drop **** due to low back issues.

What? k-a-l-i is filtered?

 

[azgun]

I'll put in my 2 cents. I have been training in martial arts for about 12 years. I have trained in kenpo karate. The art I earned is similar to kajukenbo. While it is not the main concept we do do ground defense and submissions. My philosophy is to cause as much damage in as little as time. In the majority of fights it is more than 1 attacker. I also train in conjunction with firearms. While I am a huge supporter or martial arts, firearms would be my first choice.

 

[MachIVshooter]

Also, just because you can do a technique in class doesnt mean it works on the street. Think about it, the people in your class know that move, and know what they are trained to do to comply with that move.

A person that doesnt know what the heck they are supposed to do might not even be phased with certain techniques

THIS!

A friend of mine had been in training for a little while, wanted to demonstrate this great takedown move he'd learned. Problem was that it doesn't work on someone who 1) sees it coming and 2) has a bladed boxing stance, as I do. We're of similar size (I have about 2" and 20# on him), and there was just no way this move was going to work unless I was already off-balance or not paying attention. It would need to be used in conjunction with another technique that serves to unbalance or distract.

That's not to say that many of the techniques learned in the various arts aren't useful; They certainly can be. But as bhhacker said, just because they work beautifully in a classroom during sparring, don't expect it to play out that way in a real fight.

Also never forget that size does matter. Some of those real fancy, intricate manuevers may work beautifully against someone similar to your size, but be almost or completely ineffective on a guy who has you by 100 lbs.

Learn how to incorporate the art into self defense, not use it for self defense.

As a general rule, NEVER kick above the waist

This too. Very, VERY few people have the skills to kick high and recover quickly or not fall when their opponent blocks the kick or even grabs their leg. Trying to kick someone in the face or roundhouse them is a real good way to take a hard fall. Just because Bruce Lee could doesn't mean you can.

 

[Girodin]

Think about it, the people in your class know that move, and know what they are trained to do to comply with that move.

This is a good point. It is also an advantage that competition tested ring sport skills have (wrestling, Muay Thai, BJJ, and the like). They are designed for non compliant opponents. Things that cannot reliably be pulled off tend to not be focused on. Of course the reverse can be true of competition skills. Somethings only work because of the rules, i.e. because certain things are disallowed. However the foundational skills are generally good to go. A second point this raises is that if you are not actually fighting at some point in your training you are setting your self up for failure. Effective training cannot be all theory and no action.

I am made to think of an Aikido class I attended with a friend. The instructor was showing a complicated defense to a punch that was premised on grabbing the wrist of the puncher as the punch came in. After over a decade of Muay Thai and boxing it was painfully apparent to me this move would NEVER work against anyone throwing a proper punch. Out of respect I didn't say anything but I wanted to offer the guy $1,000 if he could catch my punch like that, let alone then complete the rest of the move. The vast majority of the things this gentleman showed were simply too complicated to be effective going live and against an opponent that had any kind of skill or who was even just reasonably athletic. Of course his classes never involved anything other than slow repetition with compliant opponents. Such practice is of course required to initially learn moves. However, you need some training with a non compliant training partners to really learn the move and to test your ability to actually do it.

The real problem for most people who want to learn to fight is that there is generally more garbage out there than there is good instruction. First there are simply many many many systems, styles, or what have you that are not practical. Then even withing the good ones there are horrible instructors that have no business teaching. When one is totally new it can be difficult to discern practical from impractical and good instructors from horrible ones. People who get in with the impractical or bad instructors often never even know it and soon are drinking the coolaide.

A friend of mine had been in training for a little while, wanted to demonstrate this great takedown move he'd learned. Problem was that it doesn't work on someone who 1) sees it coming and 2) has a bladed boxing stance,

Your friend needs to learn to wrestle. Bladed boxing stances are very ripe for all kinds or proven take downs. They also make it impossible to block leg kicks. The real point though is that you need to know enough to adapt to the situation and opponent. For the most part very few things work against all opponents in all situations. As the saying goes "Styles make fights." A take down that works in one situation doesn't work in another (this is why wrestlers learn a bunch of them and not just one). The same is true of a strike, a counter, a defense etc. Furthermore real fighting is fluid not static. Often an initial approach doesn't work or is defended, it is then important to know what to try next, or when to simply abort. I do not think any move is undefendable. AS they say for every thrust there is a parry. There are moves, counter moves, counters to counters, counters to counters to counters and so on.

 

[tuj]

I have trained in and studied tae kwon do, jeet kune do, Brazilian ju-jitsu, and mixed-martial-arts and a little bit of Krav Maga. A couple of thoughts:

-some styles are very flashy of emphasis impractical moves or less practical aspects such as counting to 50 in Korean. Not that useful for self-defense, but part of the study of an art.

-some styles like JKD are virtually impossible to practice correctly at full-force because they involve things like eye-gougings as a primary strike. There are alternative ways to train, but ultimately it's hard to simulate a full-fledged eye-strike.

-training can get you hurt. I learned this the hard way...

...yes that's my femur. And I broke it while attempting to submit my partner with a gogoplata when he rolled his weight over my body to relieve the choke. Took me over a year to recover from that and I still have a rod in my leg.

As for the workout aspect, the best I found was BJJ; nothing burns calories and works the mind as hard at the same time.

 

[Girodin]

That's my femur. And I broke it while attempting to submit my partner with a gogoplata when he rolled his weight over my body to relieve the choke.

WOW!