I read a lot of discussion here about carrying a big enough gun. Personally I feel that I carry enough, as I carry .40 usually, sometimes a .38spl, and every now and then .380. That said I see people that carry smaller calibers being criticized for doing so. However, I have never once heard anyone say "I had to use my gun, and didn't have enough gun." It seems that most of the time the situation is taken care of when the gun comes out, and I couldn't imagine someone sticking around even if you are flingling .22's at them. I'll continue to carry larger calibers most of the time but what are everyone else's thoughts about this?
Thought about small caliber carry guns.
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Ledgehammer
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I agree - I can't see anyone sticking around for that, unless hopped up on something. Most badguys will high tail the other direction if faced with even a .22
orionengnr
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Perhaps those people are unable to say anything at all.
kingpin008
Member
You're absolutely right, most will. However, for those that won't, I'd prefer to have something a bit bigger than .22 to perforate them with.
Perhaps those people are unable to say anything at all.
Excellent point.
Basically, I think it comes down to a simple equation: bigger calibers create bigger holes, which in turn accellerate blood loss/general incapacitation in goblins. This is a good thing and an important thing, and not to be played around with. Therefore, when folks have a choice, they tend to choose bigger. Of course a .22 is better than a sharp stick, but .380, 9mm, and .45 are better than both, ya know?
David E
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Incorrect. Ask any cop who's been in a shoot out if he wished he had a bigger gun that held more ammo. The answer will be, "HELL YES!"
What you won't ever hear is, "During my shoot out, I was wishing my gun was smaller and held fewer rounds."
One observation I've made is that good people put their own values and reactions onto evil people. IE; "_I_ wouldn't stick around if they were shooting .22's at me!" Of course not, but then, you wouldn't be trying to kill someone for a gang initiation or to get money to score more drugs while being high. Why would you expect such a person to react the same as you?
Another issue I see is that people assign equal effectiveness to any gun or caliber they carry. IE; a two-shot .22 will work just as well as a .45 Maybe it will, up until the point you have to shoot them to prevent them from killing you in the next second. Was the .22 enough? You'll find out in about a second.
A related issue to the above is that "if it's a good technique with a .45, then it's a good technique with a .22" Well, no, it's not. Center mass is not a bad technique in general, but the smaller you go in caliber and power, then the more precise your hits need to be. A good center mass hit with a 200 grain JHP +P .45 round will likely have good results, whilst a .22 likely won't. Put that same .22 in the throat or in an eye and things are looking better for you. Put the whole mag rapidly into the badguy's face and your problem is solved. (unless there are more badguys)
The smaller the gun, the easier it is to carry, but the harder it is to make the precise hits. Practice them!
Any gun with you beats any gun not....but that doesn't mean they're all equally effective. In general, carry the largest caliber you: 1) can control, 2) will actually carry. Practice accordingly.
There may be more than one person, you may want to make sure that if it's a gang type situation, they will just start shooting and not stop. The younger the gang member the more dangerous they are. A startagy is only good if it works, there are too many variables to decide what is enough prior to the incident. Do yourself a favor and carry something that will stop someone if you hit them in the proper place. I would not go lighter than a 380, with 10 rounds, you may carry an LCP type with an extra mag in the other pocket. 9 to ten ounces is nothing, older 22 and 25 caliber pistols weigh more, so why would you carry anything less. I have mine in my pocket as I type this, and I am older, 60. I always take tis in an uncle mikes front pocket holster and a spare mag in my left pocket. When leaving to go out I take a second pistol one of several carry guns. It may depend on where I am headed or if it's day or night.
After over 3 decades I learned that you cannot plan when someone is going to shoot you. But if you are going to carry, at least carry a gun that will do the job it was made for.
A 22 is deadlly in the right hands, but a larger bullet will do a better job. Hollow points were made to stop people not target practice, you don't know if the guy or guys are going to run away, or get pissed that you shot at them, carry guns are just that, the 22 was never meant to be a carry pistol, other tthan a gun of last resort back when we didn't have these mini 9's and 40's. You carried a baby Browning or a Bauer for backup, because a 38 was too big for some types of undercover or detective work. And it was better than nothing. Is that what you want, "a better than nothing" gun to risk your life on, when there are so many choices now that are far superior. Pleasee rethink your choices. There are so many people getting guns now, and so much crap on the internet, using good common sense and lessons learned from the past by professionals, should be more relavent to you than a passing thought, just trying to save you from a mistake.
After over 3 decades I learned that you cannot plan when someone is going to shoot you. But if you are going to carry, at least carry a gun that will do the job it was made for.
A 22 is deadlly in the right hands, but a larger bullet will do a better job. Hollow points were made to stop people not target practice, you don't know if the guy or guys are going to run away, or get pissed that you shot at them, carry guns are just that, the 22 was never meant to be a carry pistol, other tthan a gun of last resort back when we didn't have these mini 9's and 40's. You carried a baby Browning or a Bauer for backup, because a 38 was too big for some types of undercover or detective work. And it was better than nothing. Is that what you want, "a better than nothing" gun to risk your life on, when there are so many choices now that are far superior. Pleasee rethink your choices. There are so many people getting guns now, and so much crap on the internet, using good common sense and lessons learned from the past by professionals, should be more relavent to you than a passing thought, just trying to save you from a mistake.
Fred Fuller
Moderator Emeritus
The smaller the caliber of the carry gun, the more it demands of the shooter's ability in order to be effective as a rule- unless the shooter is counting on luck, that is. There are only a few relatively small targets that allow a small caliber carry gun to be instantly effective, and most of them are on the head- a notoriously difficult target.
With any handgun, no matter the caliber, there are only two factors that really count- placement and penetration. Achieve both with any caliber and a stop is likely. Fail on either count, or both and... well, things might not go well for the home team, if the assailant is determined. One of the problems with smaller calibers is achieving adequate penetration, especially when using hollowpoint bullets.
It was one of my fellow Tarheels (Robert Ruark) who popularized the phrase "Use enough gun." He used it as the title of a book about hunting big game in Africa, but it applies elsewhere too. Because the less gun you use, the more coolness under pressure and skill you are going to have to muster- unless, of course, you count on luck.
lpl
With any handgun, no matter the caliber, there are only two factors that really count- placement and penetration. Achieve both with any caliber and a stop is likely. Fail on either count, or both and... well, things might not go well for the home team, if the assailant is determined. One of the problems with smaller calibers is achieving adequate penetration, especially when using hollowpoint bullets.
It was one of my fellow Tarheels (Robert Ruark) who popularized the phrase "Use enough gun." He used it as the title of a book about hunting big game in Africa, but it applies elsewhere too. Because the less gun you use, the more coolness under pressure and skill you are going to have to muster- unless, of course, you count on luck.
lpl
NMGonzo
Member
The size of the gun that the guy carries is important, but more important is the size of the fight of the guy with the gun.
I once met a very interesting man at a dog kennel. He and I found a common bond in guns an struck up a friendship of sorts.
He had the uncanny ability to hit small targets with a Ruger .22lr semi-auto without looking at the sights. He used to practice shooting a broomstick from six feet away from a tight retention position, hitting it three times as fast as he could pull the trigger...did I mention that he did this while walking toward the target and did it without breaking stride. When I ask him about the choice of target, he told me that it was about the size of the human spinal columm. He might have been a Mall Ninja, but I watched him do it repeatedly. Obviously his training had been rather specific and he did mention that it took many thousands of rounds of practice to get to that level.
The interesting thing, and to the point of this thread, is that his normal carry when going into town was a 9mm H&K P7. When I asked him for the reasoning for his choice, his answer was, "Small calibers are only effective when you have surprise on your side and you can choose the circumstances of your encounter"
Take it for what it is worth...I believed him
He had the uncanny ability to hit small targets with a Ruger .22lr semi-auto without looking at the sights. He used to practice shooting a broomstick from six feet away from a tight retention position, hitting it three times as fast as he could pull the trigger...did I mention that he did this while walking toward the target and did it without breaking stride. When I ask him about the choice of target, he told me that it was about the size of the human spinal columm. He might have been a Mall Ninja, but I watched him do it repeatedly. Obviously his training had been rather specific and he did mention that it took many thousands of rounds of practice to get to that level.
The interesting thing, and to the point of this thread, is that his normal carry when going into town was a 9mm H&K P7. When I asked him for the reasoning for his choice, his answer was, "Small calibers are only effective when you have surprise on your side and you can choose the circumstances of your encounter"
Take it for what it is worth...I believed him
Ledgehammer
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I carry a 9mm but wouldn't volunteer to be shot by a .22. Like I said somebody hopped up on something could be hard to stop period.
killchain
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The smallest I will carry if by choice is a .380. Now, if I had to carry something smaller, such as a .22, I would want a revolver.
But for my EDC, it's a Kel-Tec .380. Otherwise, it's a .45ACP.
But for my EDC, it's a Kel-Tec .380. Otherwise, it's a .45ACP.
In logic there is something called an "immediate inference". For example, if you say that some men are fat then you could reach the immediate inference that some men are not fat.
It is true that most any gun will suffice in most situations but that immediately leads to the inference ( conclusion ) some guns will not suffice in some situations. What is the likely hood you may ask? I don't know. I carry a handgun and extra ammunition not for the most likely situations but for those other less likely situations.
Remember, when it comes to SD you only have to make ONE mistake for it to be your last!
It is true that most any gun will suffice in most situations but that immediately leads to the inference ( conclusion ) some guns will not suffice in some situations. What is the likely hood you may ask? I don't know. I carry a handgun and extra ammunition not for the most likely situations but for those other less likely situations.
Remember, when it comes to SD you only have to make ONE mistake for it to be your last!
Armored farmer
Member
My thoughts,
When posed this question I always say the gun that you will carry, be it a .22; .25; .32, is better than the custom high cap combat gun back home in the safe because it is too bulky to carry.
When posed this question I always say the gun that you will carry, be it a .22; .25; .32, is better than the custom high cap combat gun back home in the safe because it is too bulky to carry.
That pretty much sums it up.
IMO, defense is a personal choice of what compromises an individual is willing to make. Each approach has strengths and weaknesses, and each approach is not appropriate for each individual.
Firearms stop threats in one of two ways:
1. The mental stop.
The mental stop occurs because the threat either sees the gun, and does NOT want to be shot, OR, because the threat has been shot, and does not want to be shot again, despite being physically capable of continuing their assault.
2. The physical stop.
The physical stop occurs because the threat has sustained enough physical damage to prevent further physical action.
Every firearm has the potential to achieve a mental stop. While handguns are weak compared to rifles, even a .22 short could produce the pain and damage that most people would gladly avoid if they could.
Every firearm has the potential to achieve a physical stop. While the human body is pretty tough, even an air-gun has the potential to achieve a physical stop if it hits the right spot as shown below:
NYC man killed by air-rifle : http://www.nytimes.com/2000/07/22/n...h-in-brooklyn-highlights-air-gun-dangers.html
However, the more powerful the round, the greater the potential to achieve a physical stop.
My choice is .45ACP, and I wouldn't carry anything less powerful than a 9mm if given a choice. While the more powerful guns are larger, heavier, and more challenging to conceal, that is a compromise I am willing to make to have the greater potential of achieving a physical stop, if needed.
IMO, as long as an individual knows and accepts the strengths and weaknesses of their firearm, it doesn't matter what they carry, as it is a personal choice.
This is a bugaboo with me. Guys come and want a tiny .380 and go around thinking they are armed.
One who didnt was a fellow who worked at a pawn shop not far from me. He had his Tomcat .32acp on him the day 3 guys broke into the pawn shop. He was so unsure of the "stopping power" of his .32 that he kept it hidden and prayed they didnt search people, as they probably would have killed him.
After that he took his .45 to work.
Another incident not far from me had 2 thugs going into a liquor store and ordering everyone down. They did not notice the armed citizen in the aisle. He took aim and shot one of the thugs 3 times with his XD40 and missed the second guy. Thug stumbled into the parking lot and died. Would anyone want to face those guys from 25 feet away with a Kel tec .32?
Little pocket guns have their role as backups or whatever but I would never think of one as a primary.
The fortunate thing is that most people will never have to test out the theory that they have enough gun.
One who didnt was a fellow who worked at a pawn shop not far from me. He had his Tomcat .32acp on him the day 3 guys broke into the pawn shop. He was so unsure of the "stopping power" of his .32 that he kept it hidden and prayed they didnt search people, as they probably would have killed him.
After that he took his .45 to work.
Another incident not far from me had 2 thugs going into a liquor store and ordering everyone down. They did not notice the armed citizen in the aisle. He took aim and shot one of the thugs 3 times with his XD40 and missed the second guy. Thug stumbled into the parking lot and died. Would anyone want to face those guys from 25 feet away with a Kel tec .32?
Little pocket guns have their role as backups or whatever but I would never think of one as a primary.
The fortunate thing is that most people will never have to test out the theory that they have enough gun.
Deltaboy1984
Member
I carry my 22 hunting the rest of time it is my 38 or my Sigma 40.
I have had my CHL for almost one year exactly and carry one of the latest micro .380's.
This pistol fully loaded weighs 12 ounces and when inserted in it's leather pocket holster,again fully loaded, weighs 13.5 ounces.
It's dimensions are: Length 5.24",Height 3.77",Width .75".
This thing is such a comfortable package at times I actually forget I have it on me.
I am in the process of trying to figure out a way to carry my Smith&Wesson model 37 Airweight in a comfortable manner.
Currently I am looking at IWB holsters and for loose fitting shorts with cargo pockets a good pocket holster.
I read here many times some of these guys walking around with full size 1911's and other like hardware items and I have to wonder to myself just how they go about this in a way that is not an over bearing hassle as well as a physical comfort factor.
Although knowing all humans come in different weights,girths,heights,etc I imagine that factors into all of this.
I have also considered a pistol such as a Kahr PM-9 as it is obviously more powerful than my current .380 but a tad bigger in size and several ounces more in weight.
Not exactly a pocket model when you are 5'7" and a normal weight.
One thing I have learned in the last year carrying is the way and the what you are carrying has,at least for me,a tendendacy to evolve and to experiment.
Case in point is my wanting to try the thicker and slightly heavier model 37 as a carry piece as well as when I carried my Colt Mustang PocketLite several months ago in a borrowed,but made for that pistol,IWB holster which I found not to my liking because I was constantly getting stabbed by the beavertail on the pistol and once somehow or another the safety was disengaged which scared the crap out of me once I discovered it as the pistol was in the cocked mode ready to go.
The Mustang has no grip safety so if the safety becomes disengaged it's ready to go.
So for me this is going to become a long learning process with more experimenting on the way.
I am more than ready to learn all I can on this issue.
This pistol fully loaded weighs 12 ounces and when inserted in it's leather pocket holster,again fully loaded, weighs 13.5 ounces.
It's dimensions are: Length 5.24",Height 3.77",Width .75".
This thing is such a comfortable package at times I actually forget I have it on me.
I am in the process of trying to figure out a way to carry my Smith&Wesson model 37 Airweight in a comfortable manner.
Currently I am looking at IWB holsters and for loose fitting shorts with cargo pockets a good pocket holster.
I read here many times some of these guys walking around with full size 1911's and other like hardware items and I have to wonder to myself just how they go about this in a way that is not an over bearing hassle as well as a physical comfort factor.
Although knowing all humans come in different weights,girths,heights,etc I imagine that factors into all of this.
I have also considered a pistol such as a Kahr PM-9 as it is obviously more powerful than my current .380 but a tad bigger in size and several ounces more in weight.
Not exactly a pocket model when you are 5'7" and a normal weight.
One thing I have learned in the last year carrying is the way and the what you are carrying has,at least for me,a tendendacy to evolve and to experiment.
Case in point is my wanting to try the thicker and slightly heavier model 37 as a carry piece as well as when I carried my Colt Mustang PocketLite several months ago in a borrowed,but made for that pistol,IWB holster which I found not to my liking because I was constantly getting stabbed by the beavertail on the pistol and once somehow or another the safety was disengaged which scared the crap out of me once I discovered it as the pistol was in the cocked mode ready to go.
The Mustang has no grip safety so if the safety becomes disengaged it's ready to go.
So for me this is going to become a long learning process with more experimenting on the way.
I am more than ready to learn all I can on this issue.
killchain
Member
My Dad put it best when I scoffed at his .380 in comparison to my .45:
"Sure, you sit there and debate whether you want to put that holster on to go to the gas station. Sometimes you'll say, "Hey, that's too much work, I'll go without." I have my gun ALL THE TIME."
I bought the .380 shortly after. He was right.
"Sure, you sit there and debate whether you want to put that holster on to go to the gas station. Sometimes you'll say, "Hey, that's too much work, I'll go without." I have my gun ALL THE TIME."
I bought the .380 shortly after. He was right.
Try carrying any assortment of the following: a weapon weighing anywhere from 8 to 28 pounds, 7 to 28 pounds of ammo, 8 pounds of water, 7 pound spare barrel, 21 pound tripod, armor with plates, coms, meds, chow, helmet, demo, and copenhagen. Do it for 20 years and you too will scoff at the notion that ANY handgun is "heavy".
While I believe gun selection is a personal choice, I feel sorry for folks who choose a smaller handgun, just because they think a more effective gun is "too heavy". It's not. You can get used to quite a load, at any age, if you put your mind to it.
IMHO IMHO IMHO IMHO IMHO
I think that a .22 would probably be effective, but everything would have to be going right: The gun would have to fire reliably, and your shot placement would have to be good. My way of thinking is that if I'm having such a bad day that I'm in a firefight, if my luck is so bad that some one is shooting at me and vis a vis, then why should I expect to have luck on my side? By definition of being in a gunfight, things are not going right, so it makes sense that things like shot placement are not going to be going right either. If so, I want the largest safety net I can get my hands on.
I said the .22 would probably be effective, but there are things at work. When I look at a gun for self defence, I'm thinking about all the usual stuff: reliability, is ammo available, can I shoot it competently etc. I also think about its going to stop the threat - not the man, not the mugger, the threat. I'm thinking about multiple attackers, dogs, mountain lions, someone taking cover etc. (I'm not saying all my guns meet that criteria, just that its something I think about.)
I have no doubt that the .22LR can be effective, and lethal. I also have no doubt that human beings are capable of enduring a lot. I'm not bragging, or trying to thump my chest or anything, but I have what I consider to be a fairly high pain tolerance. As much as I know that a small caliber round can be lethal, I also know that if someone is hopped up on adrenaline, pain alone is not going to stop someone. If all the BG wants is your wallet, a .22 would probably be very effective, but if the BG is angry, if he is determined to hurt you, then I'd want something a bit bigger.
Chris "the Kayak-Man" Johnson
I think that a .22 would probably be effective, but everything would have to be going right: The gun would have to fire reliably, and your shot placement would have to be good. My way of thinking is that if I'm having such a bad day that I'm in a firefight, if my luck is so bad that some one is shooting at me and vis a vis, then why should I expect to have luck on my side? By definition of being in a gunfight, things are not going right, so it makes sense that things like shot placement are not going to be going right either. If so, I want the largest safety net I can get my hands on.
I said the .22 would probably be effective, but there are things at work. When I look at a gun for self defence, I'm thinking about all the usual stuff: reliability, is ammo available, can I shoot it competently etc. I also think about its going to stop the threat - not the man, not the mugger, the threat. I'm thinking about multiple attackers, dogs, mountain lions, someone taking cover etc. (I'm not saying all my guns meet that criteria, just that its something I think about.)
I have no doubt that the .22LR can be effective, and lethal. I also have no doubt that human beings are capable of enduring a lot. I'm not bragging, or trying to thump my chest or anything, but I have what I consider to be a fairly high pain tolerance. As much as I know that a small caliber round can be lethal, I also know that if someone is hopped up on adrenaline, pain alone is not going to stop someone. If all the BG wants is your wallet, a .22 would probably be very effective, but if the BG is angry, if he is determined to hurt you, then I'd want something a bit bigger.
Chris "the Kayak-Man" Johnson
David E
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That's a failing of the person
By then, it's too late. You don't get to choose who the badguy is, how many there are or how he/they will react to your .22 hits. It will be cold comfort to say to yourself in your last seconds, "Well, at least I had a gun with me....piss-poor choice tho it was...."
Hoppes Love Potion
Member
I use a small single-action .22 revolver for primary carry. It has .22 LR and .22 Mag cylinders, so I can practice cheaply and quietly (and daily, without a trip to the range) using subsonic .22 LR or .22 Short ammo. The .22 WMR cylinder is for carry, and the choices for defensive ammo in the caliber are improving, with new offerings from Speer and Hornady designed for short barrels.
Frequent practice has resulted in a significant accuracy improvement, and I do not use the sights, just point it like a finger. The lack of recoil means once I'm dialed in I can unload multiple rounds into the same hole. And I am developing muscle memory which is critical in a stress situation.
The small size means I can take it with me everywhere, no matter what I happen to be wearing. That's important where I live (FL).
All choices are compromises. I recognize that I've chosen a weapon which is less formidable if the trigger has to be pulled. I try to balance that with intangibles which I know to be much more important than bullet size.
Frequent practice has resulted in a significant accuracy improvement, and I do not use the sights, just point it like a finger. The lack of recoil means once I'm dialed in I can unload multiple rounds into the same hole. And I am developing muscle memory which is critical in a stress situation.
The small size means I can take it with me everywhere, no matter what I happen to be wearing. That's important where I live (FL).
All choices are compromises. I recognize that I've chosen a weapon which is less formidable if the trigger has to be pulled. I try to balance that with intangibles which I know to be much more important than bullet size.
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