Thought about small caliber carry guns.

[heeler]

Well JoeSlomo I carry around on a daily basis a 30 pound ladder,tool belt with many pounds of steel tools hanging of off it,electrical multi meter,etc. and it's all been part of my work for the last 25 years but it's still heavy and uncomfortable but it's makes me a living.
What was your point again??

 

[LAK]

Next to having a service ready pistol - loaded, and accessible - the primary requisite is an operator factor; being able to shoot bullets through the vital tissue of an attacker. Quickly, on demand.

If you can do that, a .380, a .32 or even a .22 is probably fine. If you can't, a bigger gun is not likely to save you.

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Je Suis Prest

 

[mljdeckard]

On the other hand, have you ever heard anyone say, "I was in a gunfight, and I just had too much firepower." Is it possible that you didn't hear people complain about using too LITTLE firepower BECAUSE THEY DIDN'T SURVIVE?

If the deterrent effect of pulling a gun is so effective, why carry a real gun at all? Just carry an airsoft gun and depend on that to change the bad guys mind. Or carry a gun with no ammo. If it's all about the shock effect, it doesn't matter, right?

All handguns suck. They are compromise of portability and firepower. We carry them because it's not practical to carry a rifle everywhere. (For most of us.) The most common result of a person being hit with a handgun is that they will RUN AWAY. this means that they are also capable of continuing to try to kill you. In saying that a little gun is good enough, you are basically saying that you think that you are already well-enough protected with a handgun, so it doesn't matter WHICH one you use.

I don't like this at all. I feel that if it has come down to using a handgun to fight for my life, I don't want to pick the ones at the very bottom of the list for being likely to stop the bad guy. Sure a .22 MAY work. So might a knitting needle to the jugular if you can get close enough to make sure you place it right the first time. The FBI has test protocols that determine some rounds are more likely to penetrate enough to stop an attacker than others.

And it's not just the effectiveness of the bullet. Smaller guns are harder to hold well, and harder to aim. They have less weight which means more felt recoil. It's like saying, "When I am fighting for my life, I think it's ok to use a less effective round, fired from a shorter barrel, with less velocity, shorter sight radius, poor follow-up shots, and smaller magazine capacity."

Carry what you want. Yes, it's......technically a gun. But for me, and anyone I know well enough to care if they live or die, I will do everything I can to persuade them to carry a 9mm or larger, even if it means loaning them one until they can get their own. There are narrow exceptions where I will say to go ahead with the .380. Just understand, that if you are carrying a smaller gun for convenience, it is YOUR responsibility to make sure that your training can cover the deficit. If you are an expert who knows that you can handle it well enough to save your life, well then go ahead. But if you are just carrying a little gun because it's more CONVENIENT, I am going to go out on a limb and suggest that you are probably too lazy to train well, and just kind of hoping for the best.

But in either case, it's not MY keyster you are shooting to save.

 

[heeler]

Mljdeckhard you make some good points but I am curious.
Have you ever been in a gunfight while carrying a full size handgun??

 

[qwert65]

I prefer my 1911 but its really not practical im a large animal vet and when you wrestle 1000 pound animals every day a lcp in a pocket just works better

 

[mljdeckard]

(On THR, we consider it poor etiquette to challenge people to verify their armed encounters.)

I have trained to carry and fire a variety of handguns. I am currently in the hottest place I ever care to see, carrying a gun that I feel is too big for many people to handle well. I keep it with me at all times except while I am in the shower. I don't wish for one second that I could trade it out for a mouse gun.

As an armed civilian, I carry a full-size 1911 year-round, including 100+ degree summers. Carrying is a lifestyle, not an accessory. Make your lifestyle and wardrobe fit your gun, not the other way around.

 

[heeler]

Mljdeckard, I am not challenging you or trying to engage in poor etiquette.
You made what I considered some valid points and since you made sure that included a statement on training and knowing how to use a small pistol to cover ones supposed deficet by not carrying a larger pistol out of convenience or laziness I just thought since you had such strong view points on this you might have had some real life experience on why this was so necessary.
I am well aware if one carrys it's their responsibility to know how to use the weapon regardless if it's a Kel-Tek P 32 or some full sized double stacked Glock.

 

[skifast]

From my research, I don't think there is any practical difference in stopping power between a 9mm and a 45. A 9 will do essentially the same damage as a 45 going through the same hole in the same person.

I do agree that handgun cartridges are a compromise and in general are not guaranteed man stoppers. Therefore, for me having more rounds in a 9mm is better than less rounds in a 45.

Thus, I have two carry guns. The one I carry most is a Taurus PT809(18 + 1) with a spare mag. When my clothes don't allow carrying a full size gun, I carry a Taurus PT709.

 

[heeler]

I guess some decisions on size of the handgun carried can be attributed to states that have open carry vs states that concealed means concealed such as Texas.
If allowed to open carry a Buntline Special could work but concealed carry brings other issues to the plate.

 

[skoro]

Thought about small caliber carry guns

I usually carry a 38+P or 9mm. I occasionally go as light as 380. And I don't feel underarmed with any of them.

But, the way I see it, any goblin who attacks me isn't going to expect me to be armed with anything, let alone a lethal handgun. And he'll more than likely be expecting compliance rather than armed resistance. In that type of event, I think producing even a 22 would probably send him/them scurrying.

Then there's the even more unlikely confrontation with a drug-dazed former NFL lineman, who'd shrug off a not-so-solid hit from a 45.

We all have to assess what our risks are and prepare accordingly.

I say carry what makes you comfortable, but there's no reason to criticize anyone else's choice.

 

[TEAM101]

I don't feel well armed with small caliber guns. On the street, I'll take the .45 acp. In the woods, I like the 10mm.

 

[JohnBiltz]

I don't live my life to carry a gun. I carry a gun to help me live the rest of my life. I don't feel a need for some service sized handgun. A G26 is as big as I'm comfortable with carrying and at the limit of how much discomfort I'm willing to put up with. I also don't feel I'm sacrificing a lot carrying it and what little I'll gain carrying bigger is not worth the expense of doing so and by expense I mean comfort and ease of carry.

 

[bobbarker]

I sometimes carry a Taurus Judge (3 rounds of 45LC and 2 of .410) and sometimes carry an FN 5.7. I have WAY fewer rounds with the revolver, but they are MUCH bigger.

My thought on it is that when you start poking holes in someone, it doesn't really matter that much how big they are.

End result, I really don't have a set answer of "Bigger is better." Smaller calbers mean you'll have a higher round capacity. (obviously there are exceptions to this, so please don't pile on.) If you're accurate with a .22, and that's what you're happy/comfortable with carrying, go for it. I carry both ways.

 

[Pyro]

I carry my Titan .25 and sometimes my .32 S&W Long F&W.
I use Speer 35 grain Gold Dot, out of a 2.5 inch barrel those things run about 950-1000 FPS.
I chose not to use FMJ because of the shallow cavity trails they leave.
We call it the "Noisy Cricket", the thing is pretty loud.
The small gun is easy to conceal and it comfortable to wear.
I can also carry an extra magazine in a belt holder for a total of 15 bullets, God forbid I'll ever need to do a reload.
Yes the .25 is a pretty weak round, but with the little recoil I can put 8 rounds into the thoracic triangle pretty quick.
It floats my boat, don't need others telling me different.

 

[Intruder6]

Apparently, there is a reason for the saying "Dead men tell no tales." Perhaps the dead carried too small a gun.

When I worked in a couple of gun stores, it often struck me that too many people were looking for a gun to make them feel safer - not for one that could save their life.

Conversely, a small gun in your pocket is better than a bigger gun home in the underwear drawer.

 

[JoeSlomo]

What was your point again??

- heeler

You can get used to quite a load, at any age, if you put your mind to it.

-JoeSlomo

 

[Snowy Rivers]

I am going to cautiously weigh in here.

I have been known to carry a little mouse gun under some circumstances. As mentioned, better a little gun in your Pocket, yada yada yada.

I carry a 23 Glock almost all the time.

On some summer time ocassions I can't hide that Glock. (Summer halter tops and shorts)

Just grab a little mouse gun (22 mag mini revolver and drop it in the pocket)

Now we can beat to death the old rhetoric of "DONT leave home with a gun that has a caliber that starts with anything less than a 4 "

OK all kidding aside, If you can use what your carrying effectively, it will do.

The question certainly has merrit.

You can carry a 50 DE, can you be effective with it ????

A nice little 40 Glock or a Springfield XD compact in 40??

A featherweight 357 snubby

A 9mm Taurus

If you feel comfortable and you can be effective, it will probably do the trick.

The dirty little 22 LR will stop a hardened killer, if the shot is placed right.

I have even carried the FNH "Five seven" I dont like the thing particularly. Those tiny little rounds just dont make me all comfortable. I wonder if they would really work that well.

Sure, Placed right, they will work.

The 1911 45 colt was developed in an era when the stopping power of the 38 was just not getting it done.

The large 45 slugs got the task handled.

Back many years, the FBI agents were out gunned and getting their butts handed to them.

The call for more power went out, the 10mm was developed.

Many agents to be BLUNT were scared of the big 10. The 40 S&W was developed and proved to be a great compromise in power and controlability.

Myself I will grab the first good used Glock 29 (10mm compact) that walks through my shop door and stuff it in a Holster and call it MINE

I feel that there is really not a cut a dried answer here. I dont advise my students to choose a mouse gun, but if they can't handle a large caiber well (as in hit well) I will explore the smaller calibers with them.

38 spec, 380, 9mm, 25, 32 lots to choose from.

Hope this helps some ??????????//

Snowy

 

[Armored farmer]

Conversely, a small gun in your pocket is better than a bigger gun home in the underwear drawer

IMHO also

 

[LAK]

Let's take an historical example that was probably reapeated literally thousands of times, perhaps a hundred thousand or more times.

During WW2 Russia's most commonly used smg and pistol round was the 7.62x25 Tokarev - which in all cases, can reasonably be assumed to have been using full metal jacketed bullets or "hardball". A .30 caliber pistol round with non-expanding bullets.

You can add the Chinese of the Korean war for good measure as told by our own servicemen. Throw in Vietnam as well.

I have never, not at any time, come across a single instance where anyone from either side has joked about, or lamented "what a poor stopper the 7.62 Tokarev cartridge is".

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Je Suis Prest

 

[Losov]

It should come as no surprise that most gun owners are independent thinkers who arrive at their own conclusions with respect to solving problems. Someone sneering at my choice of caliber, weapon, holster, etc. will not dissuade me from my conclusion.

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by LAK: I have never, not at any time, come across a single instance where anyone from either side has joked about, or lamented "what a poor stopper the 7.62 Tokarev cartridge is".

Well, it does give good penetration, unlike most of the "small caliber carry guns" about which this discussion has centered, and with proper placement, it should do relatively well.

One might have noticed that Soviet military handguns have never really been selected for stopping power; the original Nagant revolver was certainly no powerhouse, and the 9X18 Makarov cartridge isn't either.

There has been some discussion about what has really been the primary purpose of military pistols in the Soviet Army, and about just whom the officers who carried the pistols were most likely expected to need to threaten with their sidearms.

Also, except for former Soviet Bloc and former client states, no other countries have ever adopted the 7.62 Tokarev. The German 7.63MM Mauser round was similar, but it was phased out almost a century ago.

For that matter, even though handguns occupy a very low step on the priority ladder in Eastern military thinking, China is replacing the 7.62 with the 9X19 Parabellum, and the Russian Federation has selected a new military handgun that also fires the 9X19 cartridge.

 

[Snowy Rivers]

I agree.

Sneering is a great way to really irritate someone.

If there is positive input to either suggest a better option or conversly support the choice, its a far better way to handle the situation.

Virtually any caliber out there can inflict a lethal wound if used to its adavantages.

One recent addition to the equation is the little FNH Five Seven
The 5.7x28 I do not have any stats on it but have owned one and carried it some.

Tiny little devil, small bottleneck case that looks like a little rifle cartridge.

Not real sure if its a good stopper or not.

Anyone have anything Pro or con here???

Snowy

 

[Kleanbore]

Virtually any caliber out there can inflict a lethal wound if used to its adavantages.

Sure, but that's not the objective in civilian self defense at all.

What you want to be able to do is stop one or more violent assailants very quickly, and as Lee Lapin pointed out above, that requires penetration and depends upon shot placement.

Shot placement. in that context. is not something that one can really effect by using aimed fire as on a bullseye range. It probably requires multiple shots fired very rapidly, most probably at a moving target.

Any of the standard service rounds will do, fired by a trained shooter from a gun that he or she can handle.

 

[david58]

I have just arrived at dropping from my 1911 to a 9mm - more capacity, less recoil, more compact if I want it. I did have a 380 at one time, but after time on the chronograph, I concluded that what little I gave up in size with the 9X19, I gained in "poop" (technical term, I know).

Plus, 9mm is cheaper than 380, and I can afford to practice more.

But even a 22mag mousegun is better than nothing - remembering that simply the display of a gun will end an episode, and in that case caliber isn't necessarily the key (and I understand that once I pull the gun I AM ready to use it - I ain't gonna just wave it about hoping a display makes someone run).

 

[Snowy Rivers]

k-b

I would not disagree with your statement at all, but I do believe that the original question was "if a small cailber can suffice"

I carry a 40 and not a 45 simply because I don't want the heavier weight and bulkier gun to pack around.

No arguement about "stopping power" at all.

The shocking effect IMHO outweighs a lot of other factors.

Big holes allow more blood loss and quicker shutdown.

IIRC The reason for the 223 in the AR15/M16/M4 was to afford larger capicity, lighter weapon, and the idea that a wounded soldier was going to tie up more personell to care for them than otherwise might happen with an ouright kill.

I would say that the same can be said for the small pistol caliber. Of course the civilian does not worry about the need of 3 others to care for the Bad guy that needs help.

As you said, the situation is different.

Let me say this, I have been asked the same question many many times by student, my answer is always, if you carry a mouse gun, you need to place a shot that will shut off the central nervous system.

A penetrating wound from a 22LR could and will eventually cause mortality in many cases, but the agressor can still function for a long time in some cases and thats not good.

I have one client that carries only a small 22 mag mini revolver.
The guy is I believe an ex marine with much time in a combat zone.

I have never debated this issue with him, but I would not want to go up against him either.

I think we will all agree that heavy caliber, hard hitting, big holes are the best option.

Just some thoughts

Snowy