TSA: If you can't stop me, how are you going to stop anybody?

[carebear]

You complain when stuff gets through, and you complain when stuff isnt allowed through, you complain that the government wont protect you, and complain when they try. Bottom line, you are gonna complain no matter what.

It is easy to pick on the government, easier than signing on and working for a solution

BS

I'm complaining cause they're screening for the wrong things ineffectively. The point that they miss stuff at the same rate (I believe it is still in the low double digits of test objects) as ten years ago and yet we still don't have planes falling out of the sky regularly points up the futility of the whole program. In general, and in my experience, any security system you can actually freely observe is a joke, it's like an uncovered obstacle. The only real defenses are invisible to casual observation.

It is a waste of time, money and federalized manpower that could be put to use in more effective ways that interfere with our individual liberty and convenience much less.

It distracts from the reality of the situation and merely provides something for the venal to point to and say "look reality-challenged morons, we're "doing something"".

 

[Ian]

centac,

You complain when stuff gets through, and you complain when stuff isnt allowed through, you complain that the government wont protect you, and complain when they try. Bottom line, you are gonna complain no matter what.

Not quite. I complain when stuff isn't allowed through, I laugh when that stuff gets through anyway, I complain when the government tries to protect me, and I don't care if the government fails to protect me.

Old Dog,

I had no idea the fellas in charge could mastermind a brilliant conspiracy such as this.

Tyranny isn't a conspiracy, it's simply the natural path of bureaucracy and government. That the US government is becoming increasingly totalitarian is to be expected, just as one would expect European, South American, Asian, or African governments to devolve into authoritarian kleptocracies.

 

[2nd Amendment]

Another reason the government types get so little respect: Lack of debate skills...

You complain when stuff gets through,

Yeah, funny that. Things like bombs and hijackers and such tend to get people riled up.

and you complain when stuff isnt allowed through,

Yeah, funny that, too. Confiscating gun-shaped ear rings, stealing cash, strip-searching little old ladies, things like that also tend to get people riled up.

you complain that the government wont protect you,

It's been noted many times on this board that most of us not only do not expect goobermint to protect us, nor would we want them to, we understand they fundamentally can't.

and complain when they try. Bottom line, you are gonna complain no matter what.

That would be because their attempts are utterly incompetent and cost far more in freedom than they pay back in any nebulous security.

It is easy to pick on the government,

And why do you think that is?

easier than signing on and working for a solution

I for one wisely decided I didn't care to be a tax parasite long ago.

 

[2nd Amendment]

Wow. I had no idea the fellas in charge could mastermind a brilliant conspiracy such as this.

Run the conspiracy flag up the pole, time to get people to salute again, eh?

Conspiracy is a bunch of guys in a cigar-smokey room deciding the fate of mankind. Tyranny is when the same bunch of guys realize they don't need to close the door, because there's plenty of people out there to defend them with the agenda right out in the open.

 

[Old Dog]

Ah, so 2A says,

Conspiracy is a bunch of guys in a cigar-smokey room deciding the fate of mankind. Tyranny is when the same bunch of guys realize they don't need to close the door, because there's plenty of people out there to defend them with the agenda right out in the open.

Now, Zundfolge's original statement claimed:

its part of an overall campaign to make compliant sheep out of the people so when the SERIOUS violations of human rights occur well all quietly stand in line and not give the soldiers loading us on the cattle cars any trouble.

Now, I'd say Zundfolge is implying conspiracy here ... on the part of at least a few cigar-smoking guys in Washington, D.C.

because there's plenty of people out there to defend them with the agenda right out in the open.

Well, by no means am I a defender of TSA or anyone in government with an agenda to transgress upon my freedoms. But if you really, really want to believe that the existence of TSA with its attendent petty hassles for air travelers is a foreshadowing of impending tyrannical rule, who am I to argue the logic of that?

 

[logical]

I've accidentally carried 3.5" folders coast to coast and back within the last year and I've had other, less dangerous stuff taken away. I travel a lot and despite what the news reporters are fond of saying, i believe the security is better than ever. Nothing is 100% when you think about all the shops, restarants and service companies that exist beyond the security points.

If I had the desire to get a real weapon on a plane, I'd bet getting it in through a partner working at the deli would be a whole lot less difficult than getting it past the checkpoint.

 

[isa268]

i flew from houston to North carolina. it was only on the return trip that they found the mini-grip that i accedentaly left in my carry on. i had to mail it home for like $10.

closer to home i go to the court house often. i know better so i leave the gun at home but bring OC. the first time i got throught security no problem the second time they asked me what it was and i told them and they said i can't bring it in there but i can pick it up on the way back...yea i'm going to mace someone to death, with about a dozen cops sitting in the waiting room right.... blissniny's

 

[Lone_Gunman]

Terrorists are just gonna start using the Glock 7. Its ceramic you know, and totally undetectable.

 

[NHBB]

my last flight experience was a couple months ago to aruba. I passed through TSA checkpoint, homeland security etc.

to my dismay, I realized after the point of no return I had a bic lighter in my pocket. I didn't say anything cause I didnt want to cause a scene, I just threw it out in the trash when I realized what had happened. it also made me completely jaded to the effectiveness of these petty searches.

on a flight to NYC my business partner was harassed for a half hour for his laptop computer, wanded.. all the good stuff. we are talking about a tall lanky goofy looking guy (think of a young bill gates). he was actually ridiculed by the people for his polite demeanor who spoke a rough form of ebonics and probably had to look up in a dictionary what words he used because they were aghast at his politeness and intelligent language.

 

[bcochran]

Tsa

Tough S--t As----.

The highjackings of 9/11/01 could have probably been avoided if the pilots had used evasive manuevers taught to El Al pilots.

The likelihood of hijackings could have been reduced if the pilots had kept the doors locked in flight as required for many years.

The likelihood of hijackings could have been reduced if the cockpit doors had been sturdier as recommended for years.

I was formerly a licensed explosives dealer. I will make a flat statement. There is no effective protection in place. And if there were, a SAM missile fired from a shoulder launcher is quite effective and defeats all the security checks that you can imagine.

CHeck out NATSA auctions on ebay. I have bought numerous knives, survival cards, leatherman tools, screwdrivers, finger nail sissors and other good stuff seized at the ignorance of the flying public. A used llarge leatherman works out to about $10-11 delivered. Now that I have bought a lifetime supply, you can be told -

 

[dasmi]

Airline security is for decoration, not safety.

Exactly.

 

[Standing Wolf]

Tyranny isn't a conspiracy, it's simply the natural path of bureaucracy and government.

Yep. It's taken me a long, long time to arrive at that conclusion, albeit not quite in so few words. Well said!

 

[peacefuljeffrey]

rebar said:

No security procedure is 100% perfect. What it does do is add the element of uncertainty to the mind of those who wish harm. For you, a 10% failure rate is too much, but to a terrorist, a 10% chance of being caught is too much.

Rebar, are you kidding?

You think that when terrorist leaders have no trouble getting volunteers to blow themselves up, they'll have trouble getting 100 volunteers together so that 90 of them can get weapons onto planes?

I mean, you are making it sound like they aren't willing to sacrifice some of their operatives to arrest for attempting to bring a knife on a plane and position themselves for a hijacking, even though these are the same people they are willing to have die in an attack?

That just lost all claim to making logical sense.

-Jeffrey

 

[peacefuljeffrey]

I was formerly a licensed explosives dealer. I will make a flat statement. There is no effective protection in place. And if there were, a SAM missile fired from a shoulder launcher is quite effective and defeats all the security checks that you can imagine.

I agree with your points, but I wanted to pick on this:

Can I buy a "SAM missile" with money I got out of an "ATM machine" using my "PIN number"?


-Jeffrey

 

[carebear]

If you can, we're all "SOL".

 

[bogie]

The TSA is not about stopping terrorism. It's about making the masses feel safe. They think that all that crap stops terrorists.

What _really_ stops terrorists from trying to hijack planes is the fact that the passengers now know that a hijack is a one-way trip, and the next guy who tries it is gonna get removed in pieces.

(I contend that they likely thought that the shoe bomber was mentally deranged, so they just sat on him for a while...)

 

[JohnBT]

Did Israel ever sell El Al? They were thinking of privatizing it at one time. Maybe the U.S. should own all the airlines and adopt the El Al security model. John

"JERUSALEM (AP) - Israel's national airline, El Al, is to be sold to private investors, Israel's Cabinet secretary said in a statement Monday, reversing an earlier decision to keep 51 percent of the company in the hands of the government.

According to the new plan, approved by a ministerial committee, 49 percent of the company would be sold in the first part of 2003, and the remainder would be sold in phases.

In 1998, when the original decision was made to sell 49 percent, officials said it was important to keep ultimate control of the national airline in government hands for security reasons."

 

[Rebar]

That just lost all claim to making logical sense.

Not really.

They don't want to just sacrifice people, they want to make a point. Having your people stopped before making that point, hurts them. First, now they have a potential intelligence source. It's also a propaganda victory, "see we're stopping the terrorists etc. etc.".

And quality candidates for homicide bombers, ones that speak English, can keep their cool enough to get through a checkpoint and not draw suspition, are not going to be in the same supply as some goatherders that's never been to a big city before. Goatherders you give ak-47s and send them to be slaughtered by coalition forces, your quality candidates must be used wisely.

I heartly agree that we should have adopted the El Al model of security. If you need to blame Bush for something, that's a valid point of criticism.

 

[Brad Johnson]

For those who think TSA screening procedures are effective, I have some bad, bad news.

You can have all pat downs, metal detectors, and swab tests you want. In the end, if someone is serious enough they will figure out some way to get their mission accomplished.

The TSA procedures are in place to:

1. Give the general population a (false) sense of security

2. Make elected representatives and others in govt feel good because they "did something about the problem".

In reality the procedures only serve to keep honest people honest, and keep the populace confident enough in their safety that they will to continue to use air travel.

Also in reality, does the TSA truly believe that confiscating fingernail clippers, two-inch plastic GI Joe guns, and little old ladies' nail files is really necessary? Surely not. It has to be a psychologial ploy to make people feel like the TSA is getting to all the "bad stuff", no matter how small or insignificant. If the policy-makers at TSA actually believe that someone has a snowball's chance of hijacking a plane with a pair of eyelash tweezers then we are all in much more trouble than we realize.

Brad

 

[saddenedcitizen]

JohnBT - be REAL careful what you wish for -

As I have said here and other places, if the gov't takes over the airlines, you can expect 'Amtrak of the skies' (anyone who has ridden Amtrak in the last few years knows what I'm saying !)
The govt is totally INCAPABLE of running ANYTHING resembling a business (no profit motive - just go back to the taxpayers if you're running 'in the red' - therefore no motive for efficiency and you get something resembling the U.S. Postal Service !!)
Study Amtrak a while (obsolete, worn out equipment, lousy schedules, lousy locations and sky high prices) and you'll see what the airline would become.
I'm certainly no fan of TSA and believe that their entire approach - ie searching for anything that COULD be a weapon (try holding off several people with a pair of nail clippers !!) is wrong but I certainly DO NOT want the gov't running the airlines.

 

[JohnBT]

Missed the smiley in my previous post did we?

"The govt is totally INCAPABLE of running ANYTHING resembling a business"

The LOTTO makes money.

John

 

[Phil Ca]

Three weeks ago my wife and I had just landed at Gatwick from Geneva and were working our way from one terminal to the other. The transition went fairly smoothly and after a trip to the head we went to the American Airlines to turn in the luggage. there was quite a long line and we thought we were at Disneyland with the lines that double back and forth.

The airline had a seperate person to query travelers with the infamous three questions. Have you been in control of your luggage? Did anyone ask you to carry anything aboard? i forfet the other question offhand. The guy on duty also controled the speed of the line to some degree. Since there was a delay dealing with the people ahead of us he had time to talk for a few minutes. After he had asked the obligatory qustions which are non-sensical at best, I asked him some questions. No, he had never served in the military and yes he knew that almost any object could be used as a weapon. He even displayed his ball point pen discretely as an object that could be used as a weapon.


I told him that I used to coduct classes for police officers on weapons of opportunity that people often carried in pockets or purse. I did not go into detail about my carry on bag but I knew I had at least 15 items that I could deploy as a weapon if I needed to do so.

After we checked our luggage we verified the gate and boarding time and went to eat something at McDonalds so as to experience an English run fast food. They have the same problems there as we do here. Spanish is not the first language rather it is some African language, possibly Hindi or Pakistani.

After our meager repast which still cost nearly three dollars for two pieces of dry toast and a small (tiny) orange juice drink and a muffin(?) we headed for the security checkpoint. As we turned towards the security machines we passed several heavily armed Sussex Police officers carrying black rifles in .223 caliber with optical sights and two magazines attached together. I counted at least six and they appeared to be competent and looked very professional.

Once we went our carryon stuff, shoes and jackets through the machine I had to be "groped" like I was being arrested by the security checker. Since I was busy with my having to deal with the checker and putting on my shoes and vest again i did not notice if they were letting younger passengers through without the same scrutiny.

When we finally arrived at dallas hours later we were supposed to be able to go through customs and to the next location w/o going through security again. So much for that bit of information. We went to pick up baggage from the carrousel,went through INS, customs and left the hold baggage unlocked at the mercy of the US Dept. of Agriculture. We went up one level expecting to go to the next gate but, "quel suprise!" we got in line for another major security check. There went the chance to find some real food unouched by airlines. We were lucky to find a head before we went to the gate to board.

Since there were many other planes coming in to land we wanted to expedite our move to the next carrier. There were several hundred people also trying to do the same thing. Just as we remove our shoes and were ready to place the trays on the belt some one had a primative South American bow with several arrows that were placed in the belt and sent to be x-rayed. Thie shut down the whole line because the screener wanted to inspect the arrows more closely. The whole line was shut down and about 30 of us had to meld with three other lines and machines. I was almost willing to offer to place the bow an arrows in the owners digestive tract but we got through the line, found a head, and got to the other plane with minutes to spare. A week later our Daughter and SIL and grandson were to late and had to wait an hour for another plane at the same place.

I have had enough of flying for some time and will bide my time before going to Europe anytime soon. One other thing: Seeing all htose TSA uniforms does not make me feel safer at all. I felt a lot safer back when we could carry knives and guns on occasion aboard aircraft.