jefnvk
Member
I do believe it says that right on the yellow form. Certainly everywhere I have bought a gun, this is the case.
un informed FFL holders make me crazy
- Thread starter CDignition
- Start date
- Status
I do believe it says that right on the yellow form. Certainly everywhere I have bought a gun, this is the case.
I just want to throw this one out to you all. I was going to buy a gun from a poster here and went to a couple of shops locally and the price they want to facilitate the transaction was so high. One wanted $100 bucks for 230 dollar gun! The most unusual was the guy who was going to charge me for the transaction and SALES TAX on the price of the gun!?
I gave up after that one. :banghead:
I gave up after that one. :banghead:
Husker1911
Member
CDnigtion: "uh oh..the Harvard types are out in full force..
just FYI, the gun I bought is a $2K Sporting clays shotgun, and I wanted it sooner than later.. "
"The reason the first post sez handgun is I posted this in a Handgun forum elsewhere, and wanted to keep it slightly on topic..."
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So not only is CD rude to dealers he basically demands perform an immediate transfer with week-old technology changes, but he's dishonest in his posts here. Is somebody a little full of themself?
just FYI, the gun I bought is a $2K Sporting clays shotgun, and I wanted it sooner than later.. "
"The reason the first post sez handgun is I posted this in a Handgun forum elsewhere, and wanted to keep it slightly on topic..."
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
So not only is CD rude to dealers he basically demands perform an immediate transfer with week-old technology changes, but he's dishonest in his posts here. Is somebody a little full of themself?
larry starling
Member
Hum....Maybe?
B
boofus
Guest
Well at the gunshow yesterday there was an AR dealer. I asked to see a Bushmaster lower receiver to see if a Registered Lightning Link would fit. He asked me what that was and I said it was like an auto-sear. Then he says he won't sell me a receiver. I said the piece would be registered, but he basically says get lost.
Nice way to treat a potential customer with a $9,000 machinegun and $700 handgun in his bag. I'm amazed some of those jokers can stay in business.
Nice way to treat a potential customer with a $9,000 machinegun and $700 handgun in his bag. I'm amazed some of those jokers can stay in business.
boofus says "I'm amazed some of those jokers can stay in business"
Maybe the jokers stay in business (and out of prison) by not taking unnecessary chances with sales to people they aren't familiar with, who have told them outright they are planning to do something the FFL thinks may be illegal. In the dealer's defense, if he didn't know you, how did he know if a machinegun in your bag was legal or not?
I said above I quit doing gun shows over 5 years ago, and one of the reasons was folks asking things like "what would it take to make this AR fully automatic?" (I don't know and don't want to know), or "I'd buy this shotgun if you would cut the barrel off shorter" (yeah, right), or "I want to buy AK's in large quantity, what can you do if I buy 200?" (I can ask you to move along). These aren't made up questions; I had all of them asked of me at gun shows, and many other things similar.
Many folks don't understand just how scary it can be for FFL holders when customers start to ask (or worse, demand) that the dealer do something that may not be legal. At a gun show, you never know who's across the table. It could be a gun enthusiast, it could be a nut, or it could be a BATFE agent just waiting for the wrong answer to make your life miserable.
Most dealers don't get rich at this, and when it comes down to a questionable sale with a $25 profit, or waiting for someone not so scary, the sale can wait for another day.
Maybe the jokers stay in business (and out of prison) by not taking unnecessary chances with sales to people they aren't familiar with, who have told them outright they are planning to do something the FFL thinks may be illegal. In the dealer's defense, if he didn't know you, how did he know if a machinegun in your bag was legal or not?
I said above I quit doing gun shows over 5 years ago, and one of the reasons was folks asking things like "what would it take to make this AR fully automatic?" (I don't know and don't want to know), or "I'd buy this shotgun if you would cut the barrel off shorter" (yeah, right), or "I want to buy AK's in large quantity, what can you do if I buy 200?" (I can ask you to move along). These aren't made up questions; I had all of them asked of me at gun shows, and many other things similar.
Many folks don't understand just how scary it can be for FFL holders when customers start to ask (or worse, demand) that the dealer do something that may not be legal. At a gun show, you never know who's across the table. It could be a gun enthusiast, it could be a nut, or it could be a BATFE agent just waiting for the wrong answer to make your life miserable.
Most dealers don't get rich at this, and when it comes down to a questionable sale with a $25 profit, or waiting for someone not so scary, the sale can wait for another day.
I am amazed as well. The main reason I quit going to gunshows is the very, very high prices on firearms. Yea, you can find a deal every so often, but most often its dealers that look to screw the uninformed gun buyer. Example: The last gun show I attended, at a dealers table sat a Springfield Armory WW2 govt model, price $625, next to it sat an Auto-Ordnance/Kahr 1911, price $675. Both new in box. I asked the dealer if he would take $475 for the springer, he replied that "this gun is a collectible reproduction of the 1911 WW2 model, and that at the price he had it listed he was taking a loss." Well, I did not want to get into a pissing match with him over it, so I walked on. The very next monday, went online to GA, bought the exact same gun, springer WW2 govt model, for $389, NIB. Shipping and transfer fee brought me to $425.
YOU cant tell me that some of these gunshow dealers have never heard of the internet, I can understand wanting to make money to cover your expenses at the show and getting to the show, but to screw people is not right. Who knows, maybe I person wanting to get into shooting, purchased that gun, found out he got screwed and now does not what to have anything to do with shooting.
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boofus
Guest
Since the FFL is the one making a living at selling guns they should know the damn laws. When the customer is more informed about what is legal and not I don't think that dealer should be in the business. It's a good idea in any business to be familiar with your product.
I'd wager good money that the vendor I mentioned before would balk at my looking for a host for a registered sear (perfectly legal). But would then tell some hapless sucker it's ok to have an AR pistol with 2 pistol grips or one that can be fired from inside a suitcase (unregistered Any-Other-Weapon).
Husker1911
Member
Boo, why would or should a Class 1 dealer keep track of the myriad laws regarding your Class III weapons? It seems he was protecting his license and livlihood by distancing himself from you. And you take offense at this?
An 01 FFL has no reason to know what is involved in an "auto sear". I know I don't. However, and I'm sure you'll be able to quote verse and ordnance number, I thought it was illegal to install any select fire parts in an unregistered lower receiver. I know I wouldn't sell a new receiver to you with the thought you were going to install select fire parts. To the best of my knowledge (very limited on select fire stuff), you may have a registered part for a select fire firearm, but can not install them in any receiver you please.
I think all the folks that know all the laws and regulations inside and out by heart, and know what price will allow a profit margin, should do the gun world a favor by applying for their own FFL's. It's a different world when the shoe's on the other foot.
I think all the folks that know all the laws and regulations inside and out by heart, and know what price will allow a profit margin, should do the gun world a favor by applying for their own FFL's. It's a different world when the shoe's on the other foot.
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boofus
Guest
If he doesn't want to learn the laws concerning the product he is selling he should not carry the product.
Husker1911
Member
Perhaps you shouldn't tell another man how to do his business?
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boofus
Guest
If their business practices are lousy they should know about it. Last I checked we still had a 1st Amendment right to publicly criticize just about everything under the sun.
silverlance
Member
hm
here in Los Angeles, if you use U.S.A. instead of united states of america the dealer shreds the document in front of you and gives you a new one. they EXPLICITLY warn you not to fill out the form without someone watching.
I have never hated these procedures
a. because they themselves were embarassed by them and wish they didn't have to do all this
b. its hard enough to sell guns in RPK as it is... they are doing me a service, and I will do all i can to help mak eit easier (they really do audit and swat team dealers down ehre... sigh*)
that said some people live in less commie states, and to them i can but sympathize at the dififculty
here in Los Angeles, if you use U.S.A. instead of united states of america the dealer shreds the document in front of you and gives you a new one. they EXPLICITLY warn you not to fill out the form without someone watching.
I have never hated these procedures
a. because they themselves were embarassed by them and wish they didn't have to do all this
b. its hard enough to sell guns in RPK as it is... they are doing me a service, and I will do all i can to help mak eit easier (they really do audit and swat team dealers down ehre... sigh*)
that said some people live in less commie states, and to them i can but sympathize at the dififculty
Husker1911
Member
"If he doesn't want to learn the laws concerning the product he is selling he should not carry the product."
He's not selling class III products. In his opinion, you're endangering his business and even his freedom by displaying class III items in conjunction with his class I firearms. Can't you understand this?
He's not selling class III products. In his opinion, you're endangering his business and even his freedom by displaying class III items in conjunction with his class I firearms. Can't you understand this?
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boofus
Guest
There is not a line in the sand between regular firearms and 'class 3' as you put it.
Usually the only things separating a NFA and non-NFA firearm of a given model is the absence of 1.5" of barrel or an extra grip or 1 extra part or the ATF suddenly deciding a perfectly legal shotgun should be a Destructive Device.
I'm not suggesting every dealer go out and learn how to take apart a MG42 or Revelli Model 1914, but they should know the basic laws for the products they decide to carry.
Usually the only things separating a NFA and non-NFA firearm of a given model is the absence of 1.5" of barrel or an extra grip or 1 extra part or the ATF suddenly deciding a perfectly legal shotgun should be a Destructive Device.
I'm not suggesting every dealer go out and learn how to take apart a MG42 or Revelli Model 1914, but they should know the basic laws for the products they decide to carry.
Husker1911
Member
Hmm, M16 parts can and do get perfectly otherwise law abiding citizens and gun dealers into trouble.
In my part of the world, there's a gun dealer facing 8 indictments for selling to prohibited persons and straw purchases. That shop's big selling tool was offering 10% over cost purchases. Now he's facing five years in federal prison. For what? For the huge profits he made at 10% over? Do you have more words of wisdom for this poor slob?
In my part of the world, there's a gun dealer facing 8 indictments for selling to prohibited persons and straw purchases. That shop's big selling tool was offering 10% over cost purchases. Now he's facing five years in federal prison. For what? For the huge profits he made at 10% over? Do you have more words of wisdom for this poor slob?
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boofus
Guest
Exactly my point... do you know WHY those m16 parts got that dealer in trouble? Because he was ignorant of the laws! It works both ways. If you don't know what is legal then you certainly don't know what is illegal. And you piss off law-abiding potential customers in the meantime.
If a dealer doesn't know then the reason should be "I'm not sure if that is legal or not" rather than-> "I'm not going to help you break the law" when in fact no laws are being broken.
If a dealer doesn't know then the reason should be "I'm not sure if that is legal or not" rather than-> "I'm not going to help you break the law" when in fact no laws are being broken.
This is all a bunch of BS. A bunch of arm chair commando's whining because legitimate business people won't take a chance on doing something stupid just because the commando wants it.
If prices at gun shows are too high, DON"T BUY THERE.
If a dealer doesn't want to do your transfer, TAKE YOUR BUSINESS ELSEWHERE.
If you know so much about laws, pricing, and marketing, GET YOUR OWN FFL.
Just QUIT WHINING ABOUT IT!!
If prices at gun shows are too high, DON"T BUY THERE.
If a dealer doesn't want to do your transfer, TAKE YOUR BUSINESS ELSEWHERE.
If you know so much about laws, pricing, and marketing, GET YOUR OWN FFL.
Just QUIT WHINING ABOUT IT!!
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boofus
Guest
Just wait until the shoe is on the other foot and some 'customer' preferably a Brady/VPC soccermom decides those scary looking AR-15s on your rack or your consignment guns are illegal and calls in ATF to make life difficult for you.
Bet you snooty dealer types won't feel so great about being wrongly accused of something by a total ignoramus then.
I get along great with the dealers that don't wrongly accuse me of being a criminal right off the bat.
Bet you snooty dealer types won't feel so great about being wrongly accused of something by a total ignoramus then.
I get along great with the dealers that don't wrongly accuse me of being a criminal right off the bat.
Sam
Member
Well Boofus I reccomend that you don't do business with that dealer.
Deal with whoever gives you the best service and price.
As for the VPC/Brady Bunch and the rest of the pack, they make those calls all the time and it doesn't matter a whit whether I know the laws or not, their complaint is the law.
Sam
Deal with whoever gives you the best service and price.
As for the VPC/Brady Bunch and the rest of the pack, they make those calls all the time and it doesn't matter a whit whether I know the laws or not, their complaint is the law.
Sam
CDignition
Member
wow, you guys really douched up this thread... Whats faxing an FFL (a legal practice BTW) got to do with anything class 3??
the High Road...thats not what some of the attacks in this thread look like to me..dissapointing..
the High Road...thats not what some of the attacks in this thread look like to me..dissapointing..
Husker1911
Member
Gee, CDnition, this might bear repeating.
----------------------------------------------------
CDnigtion: "uh oh..the Harvard types are out in full force..
just FYI, the gun I bought is a $2K Sporting clays shotgun, and I wanted it sooner than later.. "
"The reason the first post sez handgun is I posted this in a Handgun forum elsewhere, and wanted to keep it slightly on topic..."
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
So not only is CD rude to dealers he basically demands perform an immediate transfer with week-old technology changes, but he's dishonest in his posts here. Is somebody a little full of themself?
----------------------------------------------------
CDnigtion: "uh oh..the Harvard types are out in full force..
just FYI, the gun I bought is a $2K Sporting clays shotgun, and I wanted it sooner than later.. "
"The reason the first post sez handgun is I posted this in a Handgun forum elsewhere, and wanted to keep it slightly on topic..."
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
So not only is CD rude to dealers he basically demands perform an immediate transfer with week-old technology changes, but he's dishonest in his posts here. Is somebody a little full of themself?
BlownToThe Bone
Member
- Joined
- Aug 23, 2005
- Messages
- 1
either way
BOTH sides of the issue live in fear of the BATFE, and they have a lot more at stake that you do. Twice I've had issues with my ID while buying. Once I had just moved, and was new to the game, and when I filled out the 4473 with my current address and it didn't match my address on the driver's license they halted the sale. I appologized, explained that I didn't even think about that, and asked them what I can do to make the sale happen that day. Turns out a sticker on the back from the DMV was good enough. Ran down to the DMV, got my sticker address change, and showed up to their surprise not long after.
BOTH sides of the issue live in fear of the BATFE, and they have a lot more at stake that you do. Twice I've had issues with my ID while buying. Once I had just moved, and was new to the game, and when I filled out the 4473 with my current address and it didn't match my address on the driver's license they halted the sale. I appologized, explained that I didn't even think about that, and asked them what I can do to make the sale happen that day. Turns out a sticker on the back from the DMV was good enough. Ran down to the DMV, got my sticker address change, and showed up to their surprise not long after.
MudPuppy
Member
I'm going to yank the wheel real hard to the left and try and get us back on the pavement...hang on...
I'm glad the ATF is crawling out of the caveman days and into 1970, but why is a copy even required. They have that online database thinger--Use it!
I'm glad the ATF is crawling out of the caveman days and into 1970, but why is a copy even required. They have that online database thinger--Use it!
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