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What do you consider a good group size

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by soonerfan66, Dec 6, 2019.

  1. American_Fusilier

    American_Fusilier Member

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    This is a great question.

    And unfortunately, the only answer I can give is, .5 moa with my precision rifle and handloads. 1 moa if factory ammo.

    1.5 moa with my AR would be awesome

    With my other rifles I'd like to stay at or under 2-3 moa.

    22s, an inch at 25 or 50 yards is fine.

    For pistols, I don't really care or keep track. But I guess 2-3 inches at 7 yards would be around what would be me happy.

    When I go shooting with my dad, we use these targets like are like a foot and a half square, made up of one inch boxes. We'll try to put one round in each inch box one next to the other for 5 rounds. It's VERY difficult.

    My philosophy is keep the targets you use very small... Aim small miss small
     
  2. soonerfan66

    soonerfan66 Member

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    "unfortunately the only answer I can give is .5 moa " . Sir my hat is off to you , we are by far not in the same league . What kind of distance and rifle set up you got ? I like to watch something called the milk jug challenge on youtube were it's long range stuff . My wife keeps asking me how in world can sit and watch it . It's like golf or something its cool to watch someone who is good do their stuff .
     
  3. American_Fusilier

    American_Fusilier Member

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    Oooooh boy, I am not that good! I wasn't going to write more than that in the first place actually.

    Distance was 100 yards. 3 round groups. I've only gotten a .5 moa group a handful of times and only with handloads. Rifle is a Remington 700 ADL Varmint in .308 with a 26" barrel, in the Magpul Hunter stock with the magazine adapter, a SWFA SS 10x42 fixed scope.

    There is no way I could do the milk jug challenge.
    The truth is, there isn't even the space to do that in Wisconsin.

    20191206_211323.jpg 20180429_203639.jpg 20180429_203702.jpg
     

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  4. soonerfan66

    soonerfan66 Member

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    Cool looking rifle . I sometimes think about setting one up like that but seem to find another old milsurp about then and spend the money on it . It's such a great feeling when you do get a tight little group as possible . Especially when you been working on trying to find that sweet spot with your load .
     
  5. Good Ol' Boy

    Good Ol' Boy member

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    Zero's or Alpha's.
     
  6. Waveski

    Waveski Member

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    9 yards , unsupported , 5 round group old surplus High Power.
    Good by my standards.
     

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  7. Slamfire

    Slamfire Member

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    Old guys, here is a standard you can work towards. Do this enough and you can be senior smallbore prone champion

    Z6WlU9s.jpg

    The top bull is the sighter bull. The middle bull is the first ten shots for record, the lower bull is the last ten shots for record. The complete string is fired within 20 minutes. Maybe you can tell, Joe shot a perfect score on that target. This was a four day, 160 rounds per day match, two days iron sights, two days scope. Joe was a right hander but had a retina defect that created a black spot in his right eye. So he shot, left handed!

    this is Joe's rifle. The stock is an amazing piece of wood that Joe said he paid $50.00 at Camp Perry (around 1968). He did the stock work himself.

    X2mkAO1.jpg
     
  8. redneck2

    redneck2 Member

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    There are so many things that go into excellent results that’s it’s kinda hard to answer.

    Assuming a hard bench (not a card table), good support via bench rest quality rests, air gauged match grade barrels, meticulously hand loaded ammo, quality high power scopes, and good conditions, I know my rifles are capable of sub 1” and strongly believe most all my rifles are capable of +/- .5’s.

    I have pictures of multiple slightly over dime size groups shot at 260 yards with my Varminter AR. Now, I know most here will roll their eyes and say “no way”. Well again, it has a precision match barrel, a Leupold 6.5-20 scope, ammo was Nosler BT’s over 26.0 of Varget with match primers, and the day was ideal. And I’m not saying I could do it all day, every day. The shooting gods just happened to align that day.

    And, I didn’t shoot it, my S-I-L did, so I can’t take credit

    As for pistols, I guess I’ve never really tried to shoot for accurate groups. Just not my thing.
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2019
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  9. South Prairie Jim

    South Prairie Jim Member

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    A single target is just a snapshot in time. Everyone has the one they carry in their wallet to brag, whereas aggregate group over a large sample size is far more realistic in my discipline as to the ability of the shooter and the platform.

    In the real world the short question is - can ya hit what yer aimin at ??

    Btw- this is a 300 yard wallet group 0EA79305-A778-4ACD-827B-6B35F80ACEAF.jpeg
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2019
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  10. hps1

    hps1 Member

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    It's been a number of years since I have been able to see open sights. In the day, my target rifles, w/aperture iron sights were all capable of moa or less off bench. These targets shot prone, no artificial rest @ 100 yds. Both rifles w/aperture sights.
    35611090531_5e212d2d5a_n.jpg 35611090761_4a311960a5_n.jpg


    Depending upon the use, I expect at least 1 moa groups out of scoped hunting rifles (3 to 5 shot benched).
    49184022992_de96d66842_n.jpg 49184067567_d7b15ffb65_n.jpg

    Regards,
    hps
     
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  11. CoalTrain49

    CoalTrain49 Member

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    2 MOA.

    That's about 2" at 100 yds, 1" at 50 and 1/2" at 25. I know, pistol shooters don't measure their groups like that but it's a good mathematical equivalent no matter the distance. I can't quite shoot a pistol that well but I can with a rifle and good scope, my eyesight being what it is. Of course lots of shooters do much better but I'm just throwing this out there as a general rule of thumb. I would say that anyone who can shoot 2 MOA consistently is a fairly accomplished shooter. I've shot 1 MOA groups with my precision rifle but that won't happen everyday. ;)

    I think one semi-custom pistol manufacturer guarantees 1"@50 (2 MOA) and several rifle manufacturers guarantee 1"@100 (1 MOA) using their ammo.
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2019
  12. earplug

    earplug Member

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    10, X, A zone, a steel hit or clean the rack.
     
  13. herrwalther

    herrwalther Member

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    A good group is one I can cover with a challenge coin, about 2" diameter. Great group I can cover with a quarter or smaller.
     
  14. 748

    748 Member

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    My friend has a new ruger 6.5cm and says one ragged hole at 100yd is the new standard.
     
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  15. .308 Norma

    .308 Norma Member

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    Ha! I can do that, offhand, with any gun I own if I only fire once.:D
     
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  16. 748

    748 Member

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    All I know is he worked on that load nearly every weekend for about 6 months filling out spreadsheets and stuff.
     
  17. lionking

    lionking Member

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    Too many ways and variables to pin it down to one definition of a satisfactory groups size. I never measured handgun groups either. For surplus rifles or battle rifles I am satisfied with to 2 to 4 inch groups of five at one hundred yards rested. For a AR-15 a two inch group of 5 and a three inch group of 10 rested. For a AK, MINI 14 or M1 carbine any group below 5 inches at 100 yards rested I'm satisfied.

    After doing 10 shot challenged all year I don't measure groups as much anymore but rather judge by scores.

    https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...itary-surplus-rifle-10-shot-challenge.856980/

    https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...14-30-vs-m1-carbine-10-shot-challenge.856978/

    https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...ble-action-revolver-10-shot-challenge.856973/

    https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...ber-2019-one-handed-10-shot-challenge.856794/

    https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...10-ar-15-type-rifle-10-shot-challenge.854339/

    https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...n-center-fire-rifle-10-shot-challenge.854337/

    https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...ular-leo-autoloader-10-shot-challenge.853691/

    https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...ary-surplus-handgun-10-shot-challenge.853686/

    https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...i-auto-battle-rifle-10-shot-challenge.852180/

    https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...019-rimfire-handgun-10-shot-challenge.850896/

    https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/march-2019-rimfire-10-shot-challenge.848356/

    https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...n-old-west-revolver-10-shot-challenge.848334/

    https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...-cc-pistol-10-shots-10-yard-challenge.846669/
     
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  18. WestKentucky

    WestKentucky Member

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    I always want to do better. I look at the last 3 or 4 times I have shot the gun, and try to do better than that.
     
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  19. 94045

    94045 Member

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    6" groups pistol or rifle. The only thing that changes is the distance and speeds.

    Might be 5 yards at a 0.2 second pace or 600 yards slow fire depending on the firearm.
     
  20. bluejeans

    bluejeans Member

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    I’m similar to @94045 ... any gun, and any distance I shoot for a fist size (~4”) group. If my group gets tighter than that I’m not shooting fast enough; if it opens up I need to slow down.
     
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  21. LiveLife

    LiveLife Member

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    And those submitted targets are "best groups". :eek::eek::eek:

    Holes on target speak volumes. :D And reality sometimes sucks.

    That's why I decided to do "real life" accuracy/comparison ammo testing where I post "every group shot" for transparency, not just the best groups (Round count 2700 and counting). ;) - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...lector-3-break-in.859106/page-2#post-11310458

    If I posted smallest groups, I could "claim" 1/2" 10 shot groups at 25 yards and sub 1" 10 shot groups at 50 yards using cheapest bulk 22LR ammo but that's not "real life".

    And 10 shot groups tell the "rest of the story" that smaller 5 shot groups hide. :) If I posted 5 shot groups, my 50 yard groups could be more around 1/2" :D
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2019
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  22. gunlaw

    gunlaw Member

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    If I can keep it in the black off hand at 25 yards I’m happy.
     
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  23. Shimitup

    Shimitup Member

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    And 10 shot groups tell the "rest of the story" that smaller 5 shot groups hide. :) If I posted 5 shot groups, my 50 yard groups could be more around 1/2" :D
    Yep, that is my bane, the longer my shot strings the less likely I am to maintain trigger discipline, at some point I will begin making mistakes that show on the target. Typically a few shots scattered randomly around a very nice group. A good day off hand slow fire for me is about 1" at 7 yds with any of my pistols with no flyers (lapses) fairly rare event (10 to 15 rds) a rough day is 2" Outdoors the same group sizes can be extended 10 yards or so just because there's no substitute for good ol daylight for my aging eyes.
     
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  24. BAMASUPER45

    BAMASUPER45 Member

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    Pistols or Rifles? If your 53 and can hit 2" groups with with pistol at 50 yards, WOW! I've been going to this inside range for a couple of years, and haven't seen anyone hit 2" groups at 25 yards. (maybe with a .22 long barrel). I'll soon be 65, and if I hit 4" groups at 25 yards, I'm happy. Some days, I'll hit 6-8" groups at 25 yards. I'm shooting a Glock 21, 45 Super rounds. I think that if a person can hit 6" groups at 50 yards (consistantly), he/she can defend their self pretty well. I don't gamble, but I would bet $100, that 98% of the people I see at the range, could NOT hit 2" groups at 50 yards. No offense intended.Oh yeah, I'm talking "free hand, standing". On a bench, I only do that if I've change ammo or I'm zeroing.
    Now, with my AR10A4(NatMatch), I have put 4 rounds(bench) in .434"(100yds).
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2019
  25. BAMASUPER45

    BAMASUPER45 Member

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    What was your reference point? I don't see nothing but white paper. Were you shooting at "center of full sheet paper"(target).
    It's just that when I see other peoples targets, there are bullseye, lines or some aiming point. I have 3-RMR06's (3.25MOA-100yds).
    Good shootin though.
     
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