What is acceptable accuracy out of a 3.2 inch 9mm barrel?

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To answer a few of the questions. I am a reasonably good shooter. For you golfers out there I am probably the equivalent of about a 3 handicap. I aint going pro but have no issues breaking 80, so to speak. I do plan on having a buddy shoot the gun later this week. And yes, I am getting older. I have noticed a strange flinch in the last several range sessions that has never been there before. Noticed it on the golf course as well. That could certainly do it.

The original question in my mind at least was more about the expectation of the grouping at 15 yards, not really specific to this particular gun. When that other guy told me my expectations were unrealistic I disagreed with him in my mind but wanted verification from other shooters. Sounds to me after reading these posts that my expectations of being able to for the most part cover five shot groups with my hand slow fire at 15 yards is a reasonable goal.

Since the conversation has turned towards the gun itself, man what a weird trigger. It stages almost like a two stage rifle, even in single action. I am a good revolver shooter and I want the SA to be crisp. I have no idea why they did that, but I am not sure that is what was messing with me. I tend to shoot my best five shot groups in about 8-12 seconds. Deliberate, but not starting over every time. So I was getting thru the first stage of that trigger long before it went bang. I also had a small surface bruise on my palm that I did not realize was happening, but it seemed very comfortable in my hand. So I dunno.

I brought my Glock 19 as a side show and once after several HK mags accidently pulled the trigger on the first shot of a mag out of the 19. I mean I was aimed at the target but not aligned with the target. Cant remember that happening either.

I also had one failure which was a show stopper requiring me to drop the mag. I am not concerned about it since I was kind of breaking in the gun, but it was still there. Empty casing did not fully eject. 124gr HST. Could have been anything and again, not judging it off of that. I respect breaking guns in.

Anyway thanks for the discussion. I will report back with the next range results. I plan on taking my Sig P239 and Kahr K9 as direct comparisons.
 
Since you carry a Kahr, you'll understand...

My 2 basic carry pieces are the Kahr CW9 or, alternately, a CM or PM9. Same basic pistol, just 1 round shorter, and .5" less barrel with the 'M's.' If I rest them, I get the same basic accuracy with either pistol... maybe the edge to the CW9, but not by much, at equivalent distances... say 7, 12, and 15yds. After that, the edge definitely goes to the longer CW9. Anyway... shooting offhand, just for fun, I'm always better with the CW9 because of the longer grip, even given the exact same trigger pull between pistols, etc. It simply fits my hand better. It is harder to manage the smaller-framed pistol... for me. Moving to draw-and-shoot drills, or even just offhand shooting between multiple targets, the CW9 wins every time. Because of that, I have gone to carrying only the CW9... demoting the M's to BOB/Backup duty, or unless I just have to have absolute concealment.

I have shot other small-framed automatics... most recently a Hellcat Micro. It was brought to me by a friend for me to shoot. He said the accuracy was so bad he thought there was something wrong. The combination of the short grip and gawd-awful trigger made this pistol an absolute handful to shoot well. I even hunkered down and shot it off an improvised rest, where it did better... but still not even as 'bad' as I shoot with my CM9. It was horrible! I don't think the pistol was inherently inaccurate, I just think the combination of small grip and odd trigger went against it. I have shot other smaller pistols... revolvers and autos... and have done well, but every once in a while you will get a combination that shakes you off. I test drove an HK USP once... a full-sized pistol I really wanted to like... and had issues. At the end of the day, the pistol was just not for me, and I moved on.

I would probably have someone else test drive it for you... just to see what their impressions and results are like. You might try some 115grn ammos, that sounds like the only weight you didn't try, and see if things iron out. Or you just may have a bad example of a reasonable pistol... HK is good, but they are not perfect.

Yea something about the K9 man. That trigger/size/weight combination is absolutely perfect. What a great gun that is. I had one in .40 but traded it for the 9mm so my wife could control the double tap. The plan worked perfectly for all parties. Funny thing about mine, and to stay on topic, in my 15 yard cover with your hand tests it took me forever to find the right ammo. I tried about six different types of 124 and 115 grain and the target looked like a buck shot blast. Finally before giving up I shot 147 gr Speer Lawman and it was inside maybe two inches. I then tried this one box of 147gr Hornady Custom that I have had for like a decade and some HSTs and both grouped exactly the same. Just a tic high and right on top of the bullseye. Hard to argue with any of those three loads so I bought several boxes of the Lawman(I already had plenty of HST).

I even surprise myself how well I shoot that gun. I can understand how younger guys growing up in the striker fired world might not like it, but for those of us that grew up shooting DA it is perfect. That gun is a peach.
 
2nd the ideas of SAFE dry firing. I tested my brothers Ruger P94 for a couple trips and it took quite a bit of dry firing to get good groups. I used the penny on the front sight aid to dry firing. Until I could pull it in double action without dropping the penny it shot low and left and 6” at 10 yards and I shoot left handed. After correcting my grip, a lot of dry firing, and about 100 rounds it was pretty easy to keep five shots in a good centered group.
 
What a great gun that is.

Guns. Plural... ;)

I actually own 3 CW9's, the CM9, and the PM9. I've owned 2 .45 Kahrs, but didn't care for them... I think the sweet spot is the 9mm, it is just a complete package.

The point I was trying to make was, no matter how 'good' a pistol might be, eventually you will find a combination that just doesn't work well for any one person. Life is too short to try to make yourself like something that doesn't like you. As DMW suggests, you can learn to do something better by repetition... but to what end?
 
In my case I think some dry firing, which I needed anyway, and a couple range trips was well worth it for what is otherwise a good pistol. I do get what you mean though. Why fight something when there are other options that will cooperate? There are several answers, not the least of which is stubbornness.
 
I posted this pic in the revolver thread, but it does outline two of the things that commonly affect the accuracy potential of any gun-ammo-shooter trifecta. Gun was a 4.2” S&W Model 69.

Gun hates ammo, shooter tries hard to no avail, at top left. (Mild recoiling .44 Spl.)

Same gun loves this ammo, shooter boots it and flinches, throwing three and ruining a good group. (Fairly stout .44 Mag.)

942E74B5-FBEB-4063-9D49-146894FB9DD9.jpeg

It is always finding that gun-ammo combo that is the hardest. Once the load is identified that works, the shooter is the next variable.

At the range and skill level you are mentioning, you should be easily getting that sized group out of your gun. :thumbup:

Stay safe.
 

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My standard has long been one inch per ten yards for "combat" guns and one inch per twenty-five yards for "target" guns. This is pure mechanical accuracy with the "nut behind the butt" taken out of the picture. Bad triggers, bad sights, short sight radius, and recoil all make it harder to prove mechanical accuracy, of course.
 
I have noticed a strange flinch in the last several range sessions that has never been there before. Noticed it on the golf course as well.
I'm an avid golfer, a 10ish handicap, and a very avid shooter. Noticing a flinch across both sports would be quite disconcerting.
 
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So a much better day today. I went indoors and had the room to myself. I took a Sig P239, the HK p30sk, and a Kahr K9 and shot 15 yard five shot groups with 115gr Blazer fmj, 124gr Norma fmj, and Sp Lawman 147 tmj plus one five shot group out of the SK with Federal HST.

two of the three groups out of the Sig and three of the four out of the HK were easily covered by my hands while the other two each had one flyer that was just me. Of course the Kahr couldn’t group the 115 or 124(never does) but have me a good group as usual with the 147gr.

I’m very happy with it. I probably still give the edge to the SIG 239 but I’ve also shot it a lot more. Going to stick with it and try this same thing next week.

thanks for all of the feedback.

and yes, the flinch really stinks. On the golf course and the range. Felt it today as well. More like a twitch or surge or adrenaline or something. Getting older I guess.
 

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What is acceptable accuracy out of a 3.2 inch 9mm barrel?
I have a Kahr CW9 and a P9 which are carry guns for me. Both of them have 3.6" barrels, admittedly a bit larger than your pistol.

Here are some groups I've shot with the guns. These were shot at three different distances 15, 21 & 25 yards and are 5, 20, 12 and 25 shot groups, so not that easy to compare, but that's what I have on hand.

CW9:
115gr FMJ Practice Ammo. 5 Shots, 15 yards, 2.13" c-t-c
115gr JHP Carry Ammo. 12 Shots, 25 yards, 4.75" c-t-c, (best 10 of 12 shots--3")

P9:
115gr FMJ Practice Ammo. 25 shots, 21 yards, 5" c-t-c
115gr JHP Carry Ammo. 10 shots, 21 yards, 5.5" c-t-c

I consider those groups to be acceptable, so I guess my standard is something like 3" at 15 yards, 5" to 6" at 21-25 yards.
 
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So a much better day today. I went indoors and had the room to myself. I took a Sig P239, the HK p30sk, and a Kahr K9 and shot 15 yard five shot groups with 115gr Blazer fmj, 124gr Norma fmj, and Sp Lawman 147 tmj plus one five shot group out of the SK with Federal HST.

two of the three groups out of the Sig and three of the four out of the HK were easily covered by my hands while the other two each had one flyer that was just me. Of course the Kahr couldn’t group the 115 or 124(never does) but have me a good group as usual with the 147gr.

I’m very happy with it. I probably still give the edge to the SIG 239 but I’ve also shot it a lot more. Going to stick with it and try this same thing next week.

thanks for all of the feedback.

and yes, the flinch really stinks. On the golf course and the range. Felt it today as well. More like a twitch or surge or adrenaline or something. Getting older I guess.

That's great news! Glad you're getting more comfortable with it.
 
The P30 is certainly capable of fist sized groups at 15 yards. I think that's true for most modern pistols. Your average shooter is a different story. It wouldn't be my choice as a range gun. I think of it more as a duty pistol.

[QUOTE="SimonRL,]I could not get to grips with the HK and really struggled with it
[/QUOTE]

In my mind if HK dropped the mike after the MP5 and P7 and never made another model they would be truly worthy of their reputation (and price tag). They've been ca$hing on that rep since.
 
It just occurred to me that my Shield came with a section that told what their requirement was at 25 yards from a ransom rest for barrels shorter than 3” or 3.5”. Something like 3-4 inch groups was the standard.
 
I think minute of torso at 50 yards is a reasonable standard for a defensive handgun.
 
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