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What is considered an automatic weapon?

Discussion in 'NFA Firearms and Accessories' started by CSestp, May 1, 2013.

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  1. CSestp

    CSestp Member

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    I was thinking of the slide fire butt stock and how it is making a semi auto into an automatic in less words. Would the same train of thought apply if you were to put device on the trigger (please note on the trigger, not trigger mechanics) of a semi auto rifle that would more or less just increase the rate you could pull the trigger to a point to where it would become an "automatic". Is this legal?
     
  2. rondog

    rondog Member

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    An automatic (full-auto, or machinegun) fires multiple rounds with ONE pull of the trigger. A semi-auto fires one round with each pull of the trigger.

    A Slidefire stock still only allows one round per trigger pull, just much faster, as in "bump firing". So it's semi-auto and legal. For now. Until some butthead uses one in another mass shooting, God forbid. Then expect them to go away.

    There used to be contraptions that attached to AR triggers and others, to allow essentially the same function. They too were legal, for awhile, then became forbidden.
     
  3. Arizona_Mike

    Arizona_Mike Member

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    The distinction seem to be no spring (Slidefire)=legal, spring (other designs)=illegal (even if previously approved).

    Mike
     
  4. Jim K

    Jim K Member

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    There are several gadgets that do that already on sale. If the shooter manipulates the device and that device pulls the trigger to fire the gun, it would probably be legal. But if by some trick you got it to fire more than once for each trigger pull, whether a full pull or some kind of halfway point, it would almost certainly be illegal. If the device operates the trigger by, say, a motor or clockwork, it would be illegal.

    It sounds like you may be thinking of some kind of hammer or striker follow down system, which is combines the worst of all worlds, being not only illegal, but also unreliable and highly dangerous.

    Jim
     
  5. CSestp

    CSestp Member

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    Okay I am going to make me a little project that I think should be legal. Should I make it or at least "blueprint" it in some way then contact ATF for legality questions, or is there (I know the stupidity in this question) a hotline of sorts to call for these types of questions? Yes I know of THE ATF website that I can never make heads or tails of so please do not steer me to that horrific place.
     
  6. CSestp

    CSestp Member

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    My idea is to hook a cam system up to a/many rifles. I know there are versions of this out there, but I have my own touches on it. With what you said on the motor or clockwork being illegal I think my boat sunk before it sailed.
     
  7. rondog

    rondog Member

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    With ammo as expensive and hard to find as it is these days, why do you want to shoot it up faster, with less accuracy? Just sayin'.....
     
  8. Sam1911

    Sam1911 Moderator

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    If it is a motorized mechanism, the BATFE considers the switch that operates the motor to be the trigger. Hence, switching on the trigger makes the gun fire many times. That's a full-automatic firearm.

    If you have a crank mechanism that's operated by hand, the BATFE says that whatever portion of one crank motion is required to make the gun fire is ONE operation of the "trigger" so that's ok. Even if the gun fires 8 times every time you spin the crank.

    Hooking up multiple guns to such a system is simply more of the same...probably. You don't ever want to have two bullets leaving the gun because of one motion of the trigger.
     
  9. CSestp

    CSestp Member

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    I'll answer that if you answer a question of mine. What does that have to do with the OP?
     
  10. Bubbles

    Bubbles Member

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    Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives
    Firearms Technology Branch
    244 Needy Road
    Martinsburg, West Virginia 25405
    (304) 616-4300

    They will want a blueprint AND a sample.

    Here's your problem: if you as a non-manufacturer SOT submit a firearm for an evaluation, and they determine that it is a machine gun, you've sent a post-sample that you admitted you made to the feds.
     
  11. JTW Jr.

    JTW Jr. Member

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    Guess you aint never been to a subgun match.... I have , monthly for the past 17 years straight. I think you would be pretty surprised what someone can do who knows how to shoot and control a FA.
     
  12. Willie Sutton

    Willie Sutton Member

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  13. xxjumbojimboxx

    xxjumbojimboxx Member

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  14. Jim K

    Jim K Member

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    Definitely contact BATFE, by snail mail, and describe, with drawings, what you propose manufacturing. Do NOT make a working model. IF BATFE asks for a working model, ask them if their request will be legal authorization to make the model in case it is deemed to be a machinegun, or would make a semi-auto rifle into a machinegun.

    I guarantee it will take a good while to get a response. The administration is slowing down all services to the public, counting on public pressure to get Congress to repeal the sequester.

    In the meantime, you can have proper drawings prepared, and scout around for someone who would produce the item (unless you can do it yourself). Again, do not make a working model, just drawings.

    Jim
     
  15. Bubbles

    Bubbles Member

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    Or find an 07/C2 to make it after he signs an NDA. 07/C2 submits F2, wait for approval, then request the determination. If it's not a machine gun no problem, all the FFL/SOT has to do is send a letter to the ATF asking that the device be removed from the NFRTR as it's not a Title II firearm. If it is a machine gun the FFL/SOT keeps it as a post-sample.
     
  16. gearchecker

    gearchecker Member

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    It certainly can be put on a 9mm. Or just about any other firearm you might wish to mount it to, as long as the trigger timing can be set with the device.
    I have a Hi-Point 9mm Carbine. That might be fun putting it on and going thru a box or two of ammo with it. But that's part of the conundrum of rapid fire weapons. Being able to afford keeping them fed. If you have a design idea and nobody else has it on the market, it would be worth trying to get the BATFE position on if it's legalor not. If it's legal, you might have something that can make you a few bucks. If you don't look into it, you may be missing a good opportunity to improve your future.

    Regards,
    Gearchecker
     
  17. Life During Wartime

    Life During Wartime Member

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    There's a thing called a Hellfire trigger. Have no idea about legalities but it is legal at least someplace in the US.
     
  18. Prince Yamato

    Prince Yamato Member

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    For what you'll pay in development of this item, you could probably just purchase a Norrell Trigger Group.
     
  19. MasterSergeantA

    MasterSergeantA Member

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  20. total recoil

    total recoil Member

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    Anyone can design and build a gun with ATF permission. By that I mean construct a reciever. You may not build a machine gun.(fully automatic). You can, however, construct a crank actuated (gatling style weapon) as it is not a machine gun.
     
  21. MasterSergeantA

    MasterSergeantA Member

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    You don't need ATF approval to "build a gun". Individuals may not build automatic weapons since 1986.
     
  22. jmorris

    jmorris Member

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    Bubbles has the info you need to stay legal.
     
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