Pumpkinheaver
Member
Back in the day before modern high performance ammunition people used to load hollowbase wadcutters backwards under a stiff charge of powder and use them for defense.
What is it about wadcutters?
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another okie
Member
"Back in the day before modern high performance ammunition people used to load hollowbase wadcutters backwards under a stiff charge of powder and use them for defense."
Old timers told me that, too, so I tested it.
Poor or no expansion and extremely inaccurate.
This is one of those "everyone knows" ideas that is wrong.
Old timers told me that, too, so I tested it.
Poor or no expansion and extremely inaccurate.
This is one of those "everyone knows" ideas that is wrong.
In all fairness to the people who work at the sporting goods section at Wal-mart, you have to remember that they are often not "gun people". They are just the poor guys who knows how to properly fill out the paperwork and call in the background check.
The other side of the coin are the customers. Do you have any idea how many dumb people own guns?
I worked part time at a gun shop and I can tell you that if you had to be smart to own a gun, just about every gun manufacturer would be out of business.
As for the wadcutter thing...
I bet they would hurt, just like any other bullet.
I bet if you got shot in the chest with two or three of them, you would die, just like with about any other bullet.
I would rather be a good marksman than buy "more dangerous" bullets. The next time someone suggests the "most dangerous" bullet to me, I am going to suggest that they pick up two boxes of plinking ammo and invest in it instead.
The other side of the coin are the customers. Do you have any idea how many dumb people own guns?
I worked part time at a gun shop and I can tell you that if you had to be smart to own a gun, just about every gun manufacturer would be out of business.
As for the wadcutter thing...
I bet they would hurt, just like any other bullet.
I bet if you got shot in the chest with two or three of them, you would die, just like with about any other bullet.
I would rather be a good marksman than buy "more dangerous" bullets. The next time someone suggests the "most dangerous" bullet to me, I am going to suggest that they pick up two boxes of plinking ammo and invest in it instead.
Factory type hollow base wadcutters are very soft and have a very deep base cavity. Loaded backward, they are one of the few expanding bullet types that really will expand at short-barrel velocities. I have seen them expand to over 60 caliber when fired from a 3" barrel.
Even cast wadcutters, without the cavity, do a lot of damage to flesh because they punch a hole rather than tearing it, causing massive blood loss. The disadvantage for general use is that they don't feed well in auto pistols and are too inefficient aerodynamically to have much range, even when loaded "hot".
The name, incidentally, comes from the fact that they punch out a clean, round hole very like the hole cut by a wad cutter used to punch out cardboard wads for shotshells.
Jim.
Even cast wadcutters, without the cavity, do a lot of damage to flesh because they punch a hole rather than tearing it, causing massive blood loss. The disadvantage for general use is that they don't feed well in auto pistols and are too inefficient aerodynamically to have much range, even when loaded "hot".
The name, incidentally, comes from the fact that they punch out a clean, round hole very like the hole cut by a wad cutter used to punch out cardboard wads for shotshells.
Jim.
BluesBear
member
The original Hyrda-Shok Scorpion ammo was nothing but a modified CWBH.
The problem with loading any wadcutter is that in order to drive it fast enough for reliable penetration that it will keyhole.
DO NOT ATTEMPT TO DRIVE A HOLLOW BASE WADCUTTER (HBWC) AT HIGH VELOCITY
At higher velocities you can blow the "skirt" off and it can remain inside the barrel. Firing another round afterwards can be disasterous!
A cast lead, full wadcutter driven around 800-900 fps does, in fact, make a nice wound channel. But you simply cannot drive it nearly as fast as you can a SWC or a JHP.
The problem with loading any wadcutter is that in order to drive it fast enough for reliable penetration that it will keyhole.
DO NOT ATTEMPT TO DRIVE A HOLLOW BASE WADCUTTER (HBWC) AT HIGH VELOCITY
At higher velocities you can blow the "skirt" off and it can remain inside the barrel. Firing another round afterwards can be disasterous!
A cast lead, full wadcutter driven around 800-900 fps does, in fact, make a nice wound channel. But you simply cannot drive it nearly as fast as you can a SWC or a JHP.
cxm
Member
High Velocity HBWC
There is a trick to loading HBWC cavity up at high velocity.
The trick is gas checks. Seat a gas check on the nose and you will not blow out the core of the bullet.
These loads are very tricky... they take a good bit of development. You have to find the right load to get them to work right... once you work up a good accurate load they are very good indeed.
FWIW
Chuck
There is a trick to loading HBWC cavity up at high velocity.
The trick is gas checks. Seat a gas check on the nose and you will not blow out the core of the bullet.
These loads are very tricky... they take a good bit of development. You have to find the right load to get them to work right... once you work up a good accurate load they are very good indeed.
FWIW
Chuck
BluesBear
member
NO!
I am talking about loading a HBWC the proper way. Solid nose forward, hollow base aft. The whole purpose of the hollow base is to ensure a good gas seal and to totally engage the rifling. A heavy powder charge will blow the skirt off and leave it in the barrel.
Loading it reversed as a hollow cavity is called CWBH (Hollow Base Wad Cutter backwards.
You can load a CWBH as hot as you want but you'll get keyholes especially with shorted barrels.
I'd venture to say that if I have not done the most experimentation with CWBH ammunition I am in the top three since I have sold over 100,000 rounds of it. I was also one of the original distributors for Hydra-Shok Scorpion ammo.
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
Wadcutters
Factory loaded .38 Special wadcutter ammo is loaded to very low velocity, and doesn't really make very good defensive ammunition. I've clocked some as low as 500 fps. This was demonstrated to me by a guy I haven't seen in a while...His name was/is Jake C. I'll call him "Big Jake" which is self-explanatory. He lived in High Point, NC at the time. I don't know where he is now. Maybe he's reading this...
Big Jake was giving his young nephew a little instruction one spring day back in 1985 or thereabouts. To say that the lad was inexperienced would be an understatement. To make a long story short...he shot Big Jake in the outer
right thigh straight on with a .38 wadcutter at a range of about 10 feet.
The bullet penetrated a single thickness of Levi denim stretched tight over
Jake's ample thigh...and stopped just below flush with the skin. After much
profanity, Jake stripped his pants off right there, and essentially popped the bullet out like a 148-grain pimple...or at least far enough that he could grab it and pull it the rest of the way out. The plug of denim was adhered to the nose of the bullet. There was very little blood flow, and after walking back up to the house to irrigate the hole with hydrogen peroxide, we continued the shooting session...without the boy, of course...and Big Jake had no further ill effects from the wound, other than some soreness and light bruising for the next few days.
Wadcutters for punching holes in paper? Fine...For serious social purposes?
Notta chance.
Factory loaded .38 Special wadcutter ammo is loaded to very low velocity, and doesn't really make very good defensive ammunition. I've clocked some as low as 500 fps. This was demonstrated to me by a guy I haven't seen in a while...His name was/is Jake C. I'll call him "Big Jake" which is self-explanatory. He lived in High Point, NC at the time. I don't know where he is now. Maybe he's reading this...
Big Jake was giving his young nephew a little instruction one spring day back in 1985 or thereabouts. To say that the lad was inexperienced would be an understatement. To make a long story short...he shot Big Jake in the outer
right thigh straight on with a .38 wadcutter at a range of about 10 feet.
The bullet penetrated a single thickness of Levi denim stretched tight over
Jake's ample thigh...and stopped just below flush with the skin. After much
profanity, Jake stripped his pants off right there, and essentially popped the bullet out like a 148-grain pimple...or at least far enough that he could grab it and pull it the rest of the way out. The plug of denim was adhered to the nose of the bullet. There was very little blood flow, and after walking back up to the house to irrigate the hole with hydrogen peroxide, we continued the shooting session...without the boy, of course...and Big Jake had no further ill effects from the wound, other than some soreness and light bruising for the next few days.
Wadcutters for punching holes in paper? Fine...For serious social purposes?
Notta chance.
Yep, I did that back in the 60's, it was a lousy idea in the 60's and it hasn't gotten any better. The bullet isn't designed to be loaded backwards, it is extremely unstable and very inaccurate, half the time they won't hit the target in the same direction they were loaded, they keyhole and tumble, losing energy and effectiveness rapidly.
BluesBear
member
Well about 60 years ago there were wadcutter loading that were not "mid-range".
I carried 195gr full wadcutters in my 4" S&W Model 58 .41 Magnum back in the 1980s. There weren't many good hollow points available back then that would expand at lower velocities.
I garrontee you that one of those full wadcutters hitting you at 1000fps would put a serious hurting on you. I called mine "Flying Trash Cans".
The trick with wadcutters is to have enough length to diameter ratio to keep them stable.
I carried 195gr full wadcutters in my 4" S&W Model 58 .41 Magnum back in the 1980s. There weren't many good hollow points available back then that would expand at lower velocities.
I garrontee you that one of those full wadcutters hitting you at 1000fps would put a serious hurting on you. I called mine "Flying Trash Cans".
The trick with wadcutters is to have enough length to diameter ratio to keep them stable.
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whm1974
DocGKR over at www.tacticalforums.com says that the 148 gr. .38 Special wadcutter is the best defense load for a snub.
Due to the low velocities, most hollowpoints won't expand and/or penetrate suffeciently.
http://www.tacticalforums.com/cgi-bin/tacticalubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=78;t=000480#000001
http://www.tacticalforums.com/cgi-bin/tacticalubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=78;t=000282#000004
DocGKR over at www.tacticalforums.com says that the 148 gr. .38 Special wadcutter is the best defense load for a snub.
Due to the low velocities, most hollowpoints won't expand and/or penetrate suffeciently.
http://www.tacticalforums.com/cgi-bin/tacticalubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=78;t=000480#000001
http://www.tacticalforums.com/cgi-bin/tacticalubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=78;t=000282#000004
lyricsdad
Member
Due to the low velocities, most hollowpoints won't expand and/or penetrate suffeciently.
Why not check this out yourself, get a few phonebooks, soak em in water, or even a box of newspapers, soak them... then shoot away, go through them and look at the bullets to see of any expanded.
I do this all the time, and have found that even my little .22 expands.
Why not check this out yourself, get a few phonebooks, soak em in water, or even a box of newspapers, soak them... then shoot away, go through them and look at the bullets to see of any expanded.
I do this all the time, and have found that even my little .22 expands.
Paper, especially if it's been soaked less than 8 hours, tends to "crush" bullets more than it causes them to expand. For instance, I read somewhere on here that someone was able to get black powder revolver balls (fired from a regular bp revolver) to expand to the size of a quarter, and regular non HP conicals expanded to the size of a nickel, by shooting slighly soaked phone books.
Shooting water-filled gallon jugs with similar results in conicals not deforming at all, and round balls usually between 1.2x and 1.3x of their original diameter.
BluesBear
member
The soft points would get you by, Bill, but they wouldn't preform as well as the hollow point on your average, run of the mill bipeds.
I've no idea if this is true, but I had heard that in the olden days (60's-70's) when airplane hijackings were pretty common, that the Air Marshalls would carry a snubby .38 loaded with LHBWCs loaded backwards.
According to my source (pretty knowledgeable-but you never know) the idea was that the bullet would zip out of the gun but that the bullet would rapidly lose velocity because of drag. The slow bullet would be less likely to pierce the skin of the aircraft. This is when they thought that a bullet hole in the fuselage of a pressurized airplane would cause everyone inside to get sucked out and make the plane crash.
I've loaded some up and they were fun enough to shoot at pins and plates - but I was using a 6" Python and I never bothered to chron them.
(IF you were alive and kicking in the 60's - PLEASE don't take offense)
According to my source (pretty knowledgeable-but you never know) the idea was that the bullet would zip out of the gun but that the bullet would rapidly lose velocity because of drag. The slow bullet would be less likely to pierce the skin of the aircraft. This is when they thought that a bullet hole in the fuselage of a pressurized airplane would cause everyone inside to get sucked out and make the plane crash.
I've loaded some up and they were fun enough to shoot at pins and plates - but I was using a 6" Python and I never bothered to chron them.
(IF you were alive and kicking in the 60's - PLEASE don't take offense)
Something that hasn't been mentioned here yet (but was drummed in to my thick skull years ago) is the fact that flat-nosed rounds don't feed into the cylinder as easily as round-nosed or conicals. This is the same if you're loading them one at a time, or with a speedloader. During target practice, this wouldn't make a difference, but in a stressful situation, when you already have your body working against you, it may...
yeah - something about a round peg in a square hole...or something like that...
But the HBWCs loaded flush with the case mouth are so much shorter than a regular LRN that they slip in pretty quick. Experiment, drop a Sharpie marker into the mouth of a beer bottle - now try it with a Chapstick (use someone else's beer - and no Mickeys).
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