What is the most dead solid reliable pistol (autoloader) design ever?
- Thread starter bobhaverford
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DON'T OVERLOOK IT
+1 for the venerable Makarov. A member of www.gunboards.com/forums/makarov once wanted to see how many rounds his Mak would go between cleanings. After 10,000 (!) rounds he gave up and cleaned it.
+1 for the venerable Makarov. A member of www.gunboards.com/forums/makarov once wanted to see how many rounds his Mak would go between cleanings. After 10,000 (!) rounds he gave up and cleaned it.
BobTheTomato
Member
AK pistol
Tom Servo
Member
Any machine with moving parts is likely to fail at some point. Things wear down, small parts break. Same goes for revolvers, though it's less common.
From personal experience, I'd stick with Sigs. I have four currently, and only one has ever had a malfunction-a one-time stovepipe I've never been able to repeat.
I had an old P239 in .357 that failed to chamber twice in 1200 rounds, and I considered that cause for serious concern
OTOH, I've seen several Glocks fail. Usually, it's small-parts breakage. I've seen three trigger-return springs in the last year, and a couple of broken guide-rods. Granted, these were all in guns that were poorly maintained by their owners.
I'd avoid "fancy" or "custom" designs, though I have a couple of 1911's that have proven themselves reliable. Even so, for some reason, I still lean toward the Sigs.
From personal experience, I'd stick with Sigs. I have four currently, and only one has ever had a malfunction-a one-time stovepipe I've never been able to repeat.
I had an old P239 in .357 that failed to chamber twice in 1200 rounds, and I considered that cause for serious concern
OTOH, I've seen several Glocks fail. Usually, it's small-parts breakage. I've seen three trigger-return springs in the last year, and a couple of broken guide-rods. Granted, these were all in guns that were poorly maintained by their owners.
I'd avoid "fancy" or "custom" designs, though I have a couple of 1911's that have proven themselves reliable. Even so, for some reason, I still lean toward the Sigs.
Seminole
Member
Mine.
Baphomet
Member
The Ruger MKI/II .22 pistol.
HA!! Debate that that pistols not reliable, I dare you!
HA!! Debate that that pistols not reliable, I dare you!
Relodr
Member
Folks:
The key words here are "MOST RELIABLE". I presently own a Para P-14, Sig P220, HK USP, BHP, Beretta 92F, Ruger MKII, Buckmark .22, an old P-38, new XD, Ruger P90, a tiny NAA .32, a tiny Kel-Tech .32, and even an antique ( 1927) Colt 1903. Had a Glock .45 that was way too large for my hands and Seecamp .32 that was stolen from my locker along with the ankle holster. Hard to say what's more fun, a day on the trap range or sending 500 rounds of .45 ACP down range.
All of these pistols have had all the professional ( Cylinder & Slide, Novaks, Kings, etc.) polishing, relieving, you name it, reliability tuning available, and I use only the best magazines money can buy, trashing them at the slightest hint of wear/damage (getting stepped on during training/competition is by far the biggest problem). [B With factory hardball, every one of these pistols has had a nose up or nose down failure to feed at one time or another[/B]. Its the nature of the beast! All semi-autos have a dynamically complicated mechanism to strip rounds from a spring loaded magazine that changes tension with every round, bounce the rounds up a ramp to an off axis barrel opening, slide the rounds up between a breech face and an extractor, go into battery if the case is not too long for the chambe and, if held solidly enough between the breech face and the extractor for a solid primer hit, go bang. (No amount of praying helps with an out of battery pistol during a scuffle.)
All that said, of all the above handguns, the 1911's are at the bottom of the reliability list. Just pay attention to who has stoppages at your next Thunder Ranch, Gunsite, etc. training class. The absolutely most reliable semi-autos are the Sig and HK. And, wonder of wonders, out of the box, they are way more accurate than any of the others (except the tack driving MKII and Buckmark of course )
If the firepower, fast reloads, and coolness factor, of a semi-auto are needed, they are the hands down best choices.
If not, a revolver is and always has been the utter reliability king. Never once in hundreds of thousand of rounds over 40+ years has any of mine, or for that matter anyone I know, ever failed to go bang, even those shot loose as a goose.
The key words here are "MOST RELIABLE". I presently own a Para P-14, Sig P220, HK USP, BHP, Beretta 92F, Ruger MKII, Buckmark .22, an old P-38, new XD, Ruger P90, a tiny NAA .32, a tiny Kel-Tech .32, and even an antique ( 1927) Colt 1903. Had a Glock .45 that was way too large for my hands and Seecamp .32 that was stolen from my locker along with the ankle holster. Hard to say what's more fun, a day on the trap range or sending 500 rounds of .45 ACP down range.
All of these pistols have had all the professional ( Cylinder & Slide, Novaks, Kings, etc.) polishing, relieving, you name it, reliability tuning available, and I use only the best magazines money can buy, trashing them at the slightest hint of wear/damage (getting stepped on during training/competition is by far the biggest problem). [B With factory hardball, every one of these pistols has had a nose up or nose down failure to feed at one time or another[/B]. Its the nature of the beast! All semi-autos have a dynamically complicated mechanism to strip rounds from a spring loaded magazine that changes tension with every round, bounce the rounds up a ramp to an off axis barrel opening, slide the rounds up between a breech face and an extractor, go into battery if the case is not too long for the chambe and, if held solidly enough between the breech face and the extractor for a solid primer hit, go bang. (No amount of praying helps with an out of battery pistol during a scuffle.)
All that said, of all the above handguns, the 1911's are at the bottom of the reliability list. Just pay attention to who has stoppages at your next Thunder Ranch, Gunsite, etc. training class. The absolutely most reliable semi-autos are the Sig and HK. And, wonder of wonders, out of the box, they are way more accurate than any of the others (except the tack driving MKII and Buckmark of course )
If the firepower, fast reloads, and coolness factor, of a semi-auto are needed, they are the hands down best choices.
If not, a revolver is and always has been the utter reliability king. Never once in hundreds of thousand of rounds over 40+ years has any of mine, or for that matter anyone I know, ever failed to go bang, even those shot loose as a goose.
In my personal experiences with my own weapons and that of my shooting companians, I would have to say my number one Most Reliable is my Sig 220P.
It has never jammed, never failed with any reload I have fed it, and nothing has ever broke, come loose, out of sinc, etc. Second Most Reliable is my Beretta Cougar 8000. Same experience; never a problem or disappointment. Both have been shot a fair amount, although they are both far from mechanical wear that could potentially effect reliability. I simply choose the Sig over the Couger for personal preference in caliber.
It has never jammed, never failed with any reload I have fed it, and nothing has ever broke, come loose, out of sinc, etc. Second Most Reliable is my Beretta Cougar 8000. Same experience; never a problem or disappointment. Both have been shot a fair amount, although they are both far from mechanical wear that could potentially effect reliability. I simply choose the Sig over the Couger for personal preference in caliber.
4fingermick
Member
I've had colt 1911s (2), Springfield 1911 (2), CZ75, Ruger 45, can't remember the model no, Glock 26 and a 92FS Beretta.
All except the Springfields, which were bog standard 1911A1s, have been very reliable. I put about 3000 through the Commander before the Govt crushed it, perfect function. I have put about 500 factories and about 600 cast reloads (all 165 power factor 38Supers), no probs apart from wearing a spot on my trigger finger with the rough inner part of the trigger guard, about 500 rounds through the Ruger, worked fine, very accurate, sold it to my friend to shut him up, cheeze! the Glock was a honey of a gun, but the gummint got that one too, the CZ was my first auto, worked a treat. It was the only auto that didn't bite me (I have big hands). I love the ergonomics of the Beretta, but am not keen on how the gun can be ripped apart so easily bu someone who knows how to do it. Unlikely to happen, but I'm not real keen on that aspect.
They all work fine, but standard 1911s need some gunsmithing in my experience. Most other guns seem to work straight out of the box.
All except the Springfields, which were bog standard 1911A1s, have been very reliable. I put about 3000 through the Commander before the Govt crushed it, perfect function. I have put about 500 factories and about 600 cast reloads (all 165 power factor 38Supers), no probs apart from wearing a spot on my trigger finger with the rough inner part of the trigger guard, about 500 rounds through the Ruger, worked fine, very accurate, sold it to my friend to shut him up, cheeze! the Glock was a honey of a gun, but the gummint got that one too, the CZ was my first auto, worked a treat. It was the only auto that didn't bite me (I have big hands). I love the ergonomics of the Beretta, but am not keen on how the gun can be ripped apart so easily bu someone who knows how to do it. Unlikely to happen, but I'm not real keen on that aspect.
They all work fine, but standard 1911s need some gunsmithing in my experience. Most other guns seem to work straight out of the box.
Well I guess that something can be said for the CZ. In the army tests that produced the Beretta the comparitor was the CZ, however it was not in the running as it was a "communist block" pistol. Col. Cooper called it the best 9mm service pistol in the world. Testing for the new P-01 was remarkably tough and it passed without any problems even against US Army standards.
http://www.czusa.com/media_releases.php?m=4&msgid=37
Jack(just my 2 cents and worth every penny)
http://www.czusa.com/media_releases.php?m=4&msgid=37
Jack(just my 2 cents and worth every penny)
PistolShooter1
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THe most reliable-- H & K P7M8.
Most reliable and durable. Glock 19.
Most reliable and durable. Glock 19.
dasmi
Member
My Bulgarian Makarov has never jammed, even with crappy Hungarian surplus ammo.
fastbolt
Member
Hard to answer this question when considering the practicalities of the real world ... especially when you have to factor in more than just the firearm. It's not functioning in a vacuum, so to speak, or isolated from the rest of the world.
Notwithstanding the quality and inherent mechanical limitations of any pistol, other factors which may affect functioning include the ammunition used, the shooter, maintenance and the environment in which its being used.
As a LE firearms instructor I've seen a fair variety of firearms. (Which doesn't count that I started learning to shoot about 49 years ago.) I've observed them being used by other folks, and then I've personally handled and fired a fair number of them myself.
As a factory trained & certified LE armorer for a few manufacturer's products I've listened to the armorer instructors (and factory techs) discuss potential problems that may occur with various pistols, as well as how to inspect and identify the probable cause(s) and correct problems. I have yet to hear a firearms manufacturer say that their product will never experience a problem in the hands of a LE user ...
I've owned and used a number of examples of specific makes/models/calibers of pistols which have yet to exhibit functioning issues in my hands, and then I've experienced the occasional functioning problem with a different example of the same make/model/caliber. Watched some other folks do the same thing. Listened carefully to other experienced armorers, as well as factory folks and gunsmiths, when they described their own experiences, as well.
When I had the chance to talk to another armorer who had returned from serving overseas, the subject of firearms functioning in an extreme environment (fine sand) naturally came up, and I asked about his experiences. He was willing to discuss his experiences regarding carrying/using 4 different models of pistols produced by 3 of the major manufacturers while serving over there. All but one of them were adversely affected by the sand and experienced functioning issues. A couple of them experienced problems within a day of being carried and used. Doesn't really matter which makes/models/calibers were involved, though, since it might be possible to take a different set of examples of the same makes/models, and have a different set of results experienced in the same conditions in the hands of the same, or a different, person. Sand is a harsh environment, and it might be reasonable to conjecture that frequent maintenance is critical in such harsh and extreme environments.
BTW, don't bother asking what the makes/models were, since I no lomger have much desire or interest when it comes to listening to some folks start passionately defending their favorite pistols as if they were personally insulted by someone else's experiences. While I only met the fellow during an armorer's class, I have no particular reason to feel inclined to disbelieve his claimed experiences. He didn't really seem to be holding out that any particular make/model was better than another, even the one pistol which didn't exhibit any sand-related issues, and he actually seemed a bit surprised to relate how one of the pistols actually didn't exhibit any functioning issues during his usage in that environment. Besides, in keeping with the way things actually occur in the big, wide world ... I can think of a couple of instances where a couple examples of pistols from the same manufacturer which worked so well for that fellow in his instance, actually exhibited functioning issues on the range where I work, which is covered in sand, and which were seemingly related to sand, in the hands of other folks.
I've taken examples of quality pistols, often loudly lauded by many enthusiasts on different firearms forums, and experienced some occasional functioning issue, as well as observed other trained users experience occasional issues with them. It happens.
Talked to folks from other LE agencies who related functioning problems experienced within their respective agencies when it came to many of the well known manufacturers. It happens.
I've also attended various LE training classes over the years and had the opportunity to observe folks experience functioning issues with various manufacturer's makes/models/calibers service pistols, too.
Want to guess how quickly someone can become interested in what might've caused a functioning problem with a specific make/model/caliber, in the hands of a specific user, after a pistol was unable to be properly used because of a functioning problem in the middle of a deadly force encounter when shots were fired? "Brand loyalty" and personal favoritism quickly pales when considered against how lucky someone may have been in not being seriously injured or killed by gunfire when their issued pistol failed to properly function during a deadly force encounter. Excuses and brand loyalty become rather weak when considered against lives. Identifying the actual issues(s) involved ... whether it be individual firearm, ammunition, maintenance, environment of shooter-related ... and then taking whatever corrective action would seem likely to help prevent a similar occurrence, would seem to be the prudent course ...
Lots of high quality examples of semiauto pistols being produced. Doesn't mean problems won't occur.
Like most other folks, I have my own preferences when it comes to personally owned defensive pistols, based upon acquired knowledge and my own experiences ... and I've had confidence in the many issued pistols which I've carried and used over the years since we adopted semiauto pistols instead of revolvers. Granted, there are other makes/models in which I would also feel confidence if they had been, or were to be in the future, issued to me.
There are a number of excellent designs, produced as high quality pistols from reputable manufacturers available nowadays ...
Things happen, though ...
I prefer to be aware of potential issues which may adversely affect the normal functioning of my defensive pistols.
Just my thoughts.
Notwithstanding the quality and inherent mechanical limitations of any pistol, other factors which may affect functioning include the ammunition used, the shooter, maintenance and the environment in which its being used.
As a LE firearms instructor I've seen a fair variety of firearms. (Which doesn't count that I started learning to shoot about 49 years ago.) I've observed them being used by other folks, and then I've personally handled and fired a fair number of them myself.
As a factory trained & certified LE armorer for a few manufacturer's products I've listened to the armorer instructors (and factory techs) discuss potential problems that may occur with various pistols, as well as how to inspect and identify the probable cause(s) and correct problems. I have yet to hear a firearms manufacturer say that their product will never experience a problem in the hands of a LE user ...
I've owned and used a number of examples of specific makes/models/calibers of pistols which have yet to exhibit functioning issues in my hands, and then I've experienced the occasional functioning problem with a different example of the same make/model/caliber. Watched some other folks do the same thing. Listened carefully to other experienced armorers, as well as factory folks and gunsmiths, when they described their own experiences, as well.
When I had the chance to talk to another armorer who had returned from serving overseas, the subject of firearms functioning in an extreme environment (fine sand) naturally came up, and I asked about his experiences. He was willing to discuss his experiences regarding carrying/using 4 different models of pistols produced by 3 of the major manufacturers while serving over there. All but one of them were adversely affected by the sand and experienced functioning issues. A couple of them experienced problems within a day of being carried and used. Doesn't really matter which makes/models/calibers were involved, though, since it might be possible to take a different set of examples of the same makes/models, and have a different set of results experienced in the same conditions in the hands of the same, or a different, person. Sand is a harsh environment, and it might be reasonable to conjecture that frequent maintenance is critical in such harsh and extreme environments.
BTW, don't bother asking what the makes/models were, since I no lomger have much desire or interest when it comes to listening to some folks start passionately defending their favorite pistols as if they were personally insulted by someone else's experiences. While I only met the fellow during an armorer's class, I have no particular reason to feel inclined to disbelieve his claimed experiences. He didn't really seem to be holding out that any particular make/model was better than another, even the one pistol which didn't exhibit any sand-related issues, and he actually seemed a bit surprised to relate how one of the pistols actually didn't exhibit any functioning issues during his usage in that environment. Besides, in keeping with the way things actually occur in the big, wide world ... I can think of a couple of instances where a couple examples of pistols from the same manufacturer which worked so well for that fellow in his instance, actually exhibited functioning issues on the range where I work, which is covered in sand, and which were seemingly related to sand, in the hands of other folks.
I've taken examples of quality pistols, often loudly lauded by many enthusiasts on different firearms forums, and experienced some occasional functioning issue, as well as observed other trained users experience occasional issues with them. It happens.
Talked to folks from other LE agencies who related functioning problems experienced within their respective agencies when it came to many of the well known manufacturers. It happens.
I've also attended various LE training classes over the years and had the opportunity to observe folks experience functioning issues with various manufacturer's makes/models/calibers service pistols, too.
Want to guess how quickly someone can become interested in what might've caused a functioning problem with a specific make/model/caliber, in the hands of a specific user, after a pistol was unable to be properly used because of a functioning problem in the middle of a deadly force encounter when shots were fired? "Brand loyalty" and personal favoritism quickly pales when considered against how lucky someone may have been in not being seriously injured or killed by gunfire when their issued pistol failed to properly function during a deadly force encounter. Excuses and brand loyalty become rather weak when considered against lives. Identifying the actual issues(s) involved ... whether it be individual firearm, ammunition, maintenance, environment of shooter-related ... and then taking whatever corrective action would seem likely to help prevent a similar occurrence, would seem to be the prudent course ...
Lots of high quality examples of semiauto pistols being produced. Doesn't mean problems won't occur.
Like most other folks, I have my own preferences when it comes to personally owned defensive pistols, based upon acquired knowledge and my own experiences ... and I've had confidence in the many issued pistols which I've carried and used over the years since we adopted semiauto pistols instead of revolvers. Granted, there are other makes/models in which I would also feel confidence if they had been, or were to be in the future, issued to me.
There are a number of excellent designs, produced as high quality pistols from reputable manufacturers available nowadays ...
Things happen, though ...
I prefer to be aware of potential issues which may adversely affect the normal functioning of my defensive pistols.
Just my thoughts.
crebralfix
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SIG, HK, Glock, Springfield, Beretta...oh...all of them.
CountGlockula
Member
Ding, ding...Glock.
bobhaverford
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4fingermick,
From Massad Ayoob's book:
No case of [ripping apart the gun by bad guys] either deliberately or accidentally has ever been recorded in real life. It can be done in demonstrations, but it takes about twice as long as it would take to rip any whole gun out of a user's hand and would require the good guy to stand ther and let it happen. This seems to be another urban legend like the alligators in the sewers.
From Massad Ayoob's book:
No case of [ripping apart the gun by bad guys] either deliberately or accidentally has ever been recorded in real life. It can be done in demonstrations, but it takes about twice as long as it would take to rip any whole gun out of a user's hand and would require the good guy to stand ther and let it happen. This seems to be another urban legend like the alligators in the sewers.
aaronrkelly
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- Sep 11, 2005
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- 1,087
Love it or hate it......the answer is GLOCK on this one.
best!! #1
The best out there to my opinion is the GLOCK 27 - 30, they are reliable, very acurate out of the box, No break in period needed, Low maintanance, Rust resistant, example can be placed in the Ocean salt water for a lenth of time take it and will not have sign of rust, Has past numerous torture test, its the fire arm of choice of almost all Police force, Most security Companies use the Glock 9mm other than the standard 38 spl., need I to say more......
The best out there to my opinion is the GLOCK 27 - 30, they are reliable, very acurate out of the box, No break in period needed, Low maintanance, Rust resistant, example can be placed in the Ocean salt water for a lenth of time take it and will not have sign of rust, Has past numerous torture test, its the fire arm of choice of almost all Police force, Most security Companies use the Glock 9mm other than the standard 38 spl., need I to say more......
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