What is wrong with the 1911 design?
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Technosavant
Member
You know, that has to be the most astonishing statement I've ever seen, even by the usual standards of the 1911 haters. If you can't grant that the 1911 is a perfectly functional and accurate platform, even if it isn't your preference, well, we can't do anything for you. We have our eyes open regarding the advantages and disadvantages of our chosen handgun. To be otherwise isn't realistic, whether you love 1911s, Glocks, Sigs, or old Smith & Wesson revolvers.
Its the leftover scarring of my exit wound. I was hit with the almighty 45ACP and didn't realize it until 5 minutes later when I got dizzy in the car on the drive home. Whether or not you think so, I believe that the whole bigger is better argument is extremely flawed. While there are some other aspects that make 45 acp better than other calibers, its not very many.
And what is that a picture of (he hesitated to ask), because there is also a thread about a negligent discharge that went through T-Darwin's leg TWICE.
I guess the lesson is don't go around shooting people in the leg if you want a once shot stop. But again for about the 3rd time... what is that a picture of? Your leg, your abdomen? Your ars? I honestly cannot tell and I can't see any scar either.
I guess the lesson is don't go around shooting people in the leg if you want a once shot stop. But again for about the 3rd time... what is that a picture of? Your leg, your abdomen? Your ars? I honestly cannot tell and I can't see any scar either.
ForneyRider
Member
What's wrong with 1911?
Single stack capacity. Can be rectified somewhat with 8+1, 10+1 mags.
Single Action. AFAIK, Stuck here. Else, get a Para LDA.
Too Heavy. Get an aluminum frame.
Too big (full-size, government model). Get a Micro-Compact.
Rough edges compared to polymer. Deburr job.
100 year-old engineering. Cone barrel rids you of bushing.
Too many parts. Yea, but can get really pretty parts from Caspian, etc.
I grew up with bolt action rifles, shotguns, and a 22LR derringer in my dad's closet. He bought a S&W 9mm autoloader back when they were a POS factory recall. Then he got a Ruger 41 Mag Blackhawk.
Recently, I bought my first firearm, the XD 45. Shopped for a year. Love it except not as accurate a pistol as a single action with metal frame. So I have a Springfield Loaded Stainless. Love this gun. Heavy duty, bone reliable.
I like the 1911 system. Similar to me is a Mustang. Can add and remove parts yourself, or have a customizer trick it out for you. Reliable, well my 98 GT was.
Single stack capacity. Can be rectified somewhat with 8+1, 10+1 mags.
Single Action. AFAIK, Stuck here. Else, get a Para LDA.
Too Heavy. Get an aluminum frame.
Too big (full-size, government model). Get a Micro-Compact.
Rough edges compared to polymer. Deburr job.
100 year-old engineering. Cone barrel rids you of bushing.
Too many parts. Yea, but can get really pretty parts from Caspian, etc.
I grew up with bolt action rifles, shotguns, and a 22LR derringer in my dad's closet. He bought a S&W 9mm autoloader back when they were a POS factory recall. Then he got a Ruger 41 Mag Blackhawk.
Recently, I bought my first firearm, the XD 45. Shopped for a year. Love it except not as accurate a pistol as a single action with metal frame. So I have a Springfield Loaded Stainless. Love this gun. Heavy duty, bone reliable.
I like the 1911 system. Similar to me is a Mustang. Can add and remove parts yourself, or have a customizer trick it out for you. Reliable, well my 98 GT was.
It is my ass, torwards the top. Since I was on higher ground, It came in torwards the groin, i don't think anybody wants to see a picture of that. Its kinda hard to see since it was easier to keep clean than the entrance wound, however you can see an elipse/slit around the size of an eraser (those big rectangle ones).
Michael Zeleny
member
To spell out the obvious, I am claiming that supporting the quality of the M1911 with observations that it is still made today by dozens of companies, modified by thousands more for a wide, wide range of uses, is no more compelling than supporting the quality of the Big Mac with banners of millions served. If there is a difference in the logic of these arguments, I would be very grateful to anyone willing and able to explain it.
As for love, my advice is not to squander it on inanimate objects.
BENELLIMONTE
member
I totally agree with BOATS assessment of JMBs 1911 design. Simply the best designed & most battle proven pistol ever!
Les Baer 1911 Concept 2
S & W Scandium 1911
Springfield 1911 GI
Taurus PT 1911
Ruger P95 9MM
S & W 6906 9MM
Taurus PT92 AF
H & K USP Compact 40 S&W
Les Baer 1911 Concept 2
S & W Scandium 1911
Springfield 1911 GI
Taurus PT 1911
Ruger P95 9MM
S & W 6906 9MM
Taurus PT92 AF
H & K USP Compact 40 S&W
hrgrisso
Member
Taking the Bait
First let me start with, the 1911 is the first handgun I ever shot and it was in fact my dads old Remington Rand that he carried throughout China during the big WW2. Let me add for those that don't recognize me, I am a Sig guy. Devout member of the sig church.
However I believe that has happened here is the convergence of target shooters arguing the user friendliness of a tool designed to do one thing very well. Kill.
Now I've only shot the P210 once and compared to the 226 that I was carrying at the time, I was not impressed. Good but not the functional tool of either my inherited 1911 or my newer Sig.
Now here's where I take the bait: (If I fudge things a little feel free to correct, I'm winging this with no caffeine)
Now Michael keeps bringing up the accuracy requirements of the US trials for the 1911 and how utterly dispicable they were. However Michael let me ask this, have you ever heard of a guy named Jeff Cooper? What was his largest legacy to handguns?
How We Shoot!
My dad went through boot (sort of for a merc) and was taught the U.S. standard for handgunning which was one hand.
So I ask, do you shoot better 1 handed or 2? 2 hands is the modern school of thought. And so it's reasonable to assume that when shooting one handed with tiny sights (that have since original design been corrected) an individual will shoot larger groups reasonably well.
And while 1911Tuner has accepted your challenge (graciously by the way for someone talking AT everyone, not talking to them) with a little used Remington Rand, I'd put dollars to pesos (or euros, your call) that my beaten up battle scarred pistol will stay close to what your beloved 210 can do accuracy wise. And better yet, I'll still be shooting when you must stop to start lubing it.
Lastly let me address the O/P.
What would I "fix" on JMB's greatest design?
I'd say the Caliber and Weight are the two largest problems.
Of course there are fixes to both of those, someone has already mentioned the S&W Scandium 1911's that are so sweet. And I believe it is Guncrafter Tech. has already improved the caliber out to the .50.
Read it and weep boys.
Oh and the duty Berreta is looking awfully close to outliving your P210 in real combat service life. It's even making inroads at camp perry pistol matches quite well. Oh and the 1911 is still chosen by combat units (military and police) whenever available, see the Marine MOU handgun, the LAPD SWAT/SIS and more. Sig isn't down and out either with the 226/229/220/228 all still in active military and LE duty holsters worldwide.
Where is the 210? No longer used. No longer widely produced. Why? Because it's been eclipsed. By the 1911, younger Sigs, the CZ-75 the Beretta and even the Austrian Devil Plastic glock.
Last comment and I'll shut up I promise, that @$$ picture is just plain wrong. And you can't comment on caliber since the @$$ is all meat (or flubber). But good luck with that. I recommend a tatoo that is a big sign saying "I GOT SHOT HERE!" Chicks will dig it!
First let me start with, the 1911 is the first handgun I ever shot and it was in fact my dads old Remington Rand that he carried throughout China during the big WW2. Let me add for those that don't recognize me, I am a Sig guy. Devout member of the sig church.
However I believe that has happened here is the convergence of target shooters arguing the user friendliness of a tool designed to do one thing very well. Kill.
Now I've only shot the P210 once and compared to the 226 that I was carrying at the time, I was not impressed. Good but not the functional tool of either my inherited 1911 or my newer Sig.
Now here's where I take the bait: (If I fudge things a little feel free to correct, I'm winging this with no caffeine)
Now Michael keeps bringing up the accuracy requirements of the US trials for the 1911 and how utterly dispicable they were. However Michael let me ask this, have you ever heard of a guy named Jeff Cooper? What was his largest legacy to handguns?
How We Shoot!
My dad went through boot (sort of for a merc) and was taught the U.S. standard for handgunning which was one hand.
So I ask, do you shoot better 1 handed or 2? 2 hands is the modern school of thought. And so it's reasonable to assume that when shooting one handed with tiny sights (that have since original design been corrected) an individual will shoot larger groups reasonably well.
And while 1911Tuner has accepted your challenge (graciously by the way for someone talking AT everyone, not talking to them) with a little used Remington Rand, I'd put dollars to pesos (or euros, your call) that my beaten up battle scarred pistol will stay close to what your beloved 210 can do accuracy wise. And better yet, I'll still be shooting when you must stop to start lubing it.
Lastly let me address the O/P.
What would I "fix" on JMB's greatest design?
I'd say the Caliber and Weight are the two largest problems.
Of course there are fixes to both of those, someone has already mentioned the S&W Scandium 1911's that are so sweet. And I believe it is Guncrafter Tech. has already improved the caliber out to the .50.
Read it and weep boys.
Oh and the duty Berreta is looking awfully close to outliving your P210 in real combat service life. It's even making inroads at camp perry pistol matches quite well. Oh and the 1911 is still chosen by combat units (military and police) whenever available, see the Marine MOU handgun, the LAPD SWAT/SIS and more. Sig isn't down and out either with the 226/229/220/228 all still in active military and LE duty holsters worldwide.
Where is the 210? No longer used. No longer widely produced. Why? Because it's been eclipsed. By the 1911, younger Sigs, the CZ-75 the Beretta and even the Austrian Devil Plastic glock.
Last comment and I'll shut up I promise, that @$$ picture is just plain wrong. And you can't comment on caliber since the @$$ is all meat (or flubber). But good luck with that. I recommend a tatoo that is a big sign saying "I GOT SHOT HERE!" Chicks will dig it!
Lonestar49
Member
Just a tad of more truth
Quote: Yesterday, if someone had told me that there would pics of someone's ass itt, I wouldn't have believed them. This thread has gone from oddball to surreal.
What could possibly be next?
------------
...
Just pick your favorite reply-poster and add the name: _________
I hope this helps bring a little less "attitude" to an otherwise, great thread-post..
My best,
Ls
Quote: Yesterday, if someone had told me that there would pics of someone's ass itt, I wouldn't have believed them. This thread has gone from oddball to surreal.
What could possibly be next?
------------
...
Just pick your favorite reply-poster and add the name: _________
I hope this helps bring a little less "attitude" to an otherwise, great thread-post..
My best,
Ls
steelyblue
Member
I'm going to get sick of popcorn watching this show!!!!lol (goes to stick some more in the microwave)
I don't understand what the big deal is. I'm just sharing an experience, and a picture where you can't see much of my backend anyways. The thread is titled "What is wrong with the 1911 design". I believe that it is the caliber. If you believe that it would have made a big difference to the torso or chest, then fine. However, it is my opinion and if you think that it has no flaws, than it does not.
Edit: I guess my butt is more offensive than I thought it was
. Ill take it down.Mandirigma
Member
The 1911 is designed around the 45ACP, therefore I think that it is a flaw.
Still not seeing why you think the caliber is a flaw.
If I remember correctly, the 1911 was designed around the .45acp because the .38 wasn't doing a good enough job at the time
Still not seeing why you think the caliber is a flaw.
If I remember correctly, the 1911 was designed around the .45acp because the .38 wasn't doing a good enough job at the time
Lonestar49
Member
You voiced a flaw, I disagree, but that is the topic
...
Z,
I think you were lucky and, because of that fact, you're thinking "no need for such a big caliber", as it didn't take off your leg, you survived intact, and your entitled to that thinking.
But I know those that have done what their job requires of them, to go into harms way, for 30yrs, and they really don't take pride in talking about it, but I know what they told me in private. Nothing better, nothing more dependable, to stop a man, with one, or 2 shots, every-time, with body-counts that don't lie, with the facts that either they (BG's) died or, were incapcitated instantly or, fast enough that no one from that point on, of contact, (GG's) got hurt, is, and was, with the 45 caliber, and 90% of those shots came from 1911's, "of choice."
Take it for what it's worth, as I simply shrug my shoulders and smile and know you're one lucky man to have a leg intact, due to a ND that was not really "aimed" with the intent of taking you out of action with one shot.
Also, my guess is; if you were at a range, then chances are great, that you were hit with a FMJ bullet as opposed to JHP.. big difference when it comes to damage thru travel.
No flaws, IMHO, in the 45 caliber, nor the delivery weapon of choice, be it a 1911, or Sig P220, etc.
Ls
...
Z,
I think you were lucky and, because of that fact, you're thinking "no need for such a big caliber", as it didn't take off your leg, you survived intact, and your entitled to that thinking.
But I know those that have done what their job requires of them, to go into harms way, for 30yrs, and they really don't take pride in talking about it, but I know what they told me in private. Nothing better, nothing more dependable, to stop a man, with one, or 2 shots, every-time, with body-counts that don't lie, with the facts that either they (BG's) died or, were incapcitated instantly or, fast enough that no one from that point on, of contact, (GG's) got hurt, is, and was, with the 45 caliber, and 90% of those shots came from 1911's, "of choice."
Take it for what it's worth, as I simply shrug my shoulders and smile and know you're one lucky man to have a leg intact, due to a ND that was not really "aimed" with the intent of taking you out of action with one shot.
Also, my guess is; if you were at a range, then chances are great, that you were hit with a FMJ bullet as opposed to JHP.. big difference when it comes to damage thru travel.
No flaws, IMHO, in the 45 caliber, nor the delivery weapon of choice, be it a 1911, or Sig P220, etc.
Ls
Last edited:
Michael Zeleny
member
The Luger is ill-suited for this kind of duty. A shot in the back of the head with 9x19mm gets very messy. Executioners on top of their game favor Walthers in 7.65x17mm.
Would you care to repeat that to this guy?
The English term is similar to the German: seconds. I am open to suggestions.
Michael Zeleny
member
About the same with a handgun. Better with 2 hands when shooting a rifle or a shotgun.
By this kind of reasoning, Rembrandt van Rijn has been eclipsed by Jeff Koons and Mark Kostabi.
Incidentally, P210 is still in service with the Swiss army and the Danish Special Forces. Surplus M/49 pistols have been issued to the Latvian elite troops since 2006.
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