What Makes the 1911 So Great?
- Thread starter Mad Man
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MCgunner
Member
Well, about the only advantage to the 1911 I can see is a huge aftermarket to make it right after you buy it and a lot of gunsmiths that specialize in making the thing feed and extract once you get it home and find out it won't. Been there, done that. Most of the list you provide aren't advantages. Even JMB redesigned the Hi Power to be linkless, not that big a deal since the link works fine. Not really an "improvement there. Bushingless is desirable as is a full length spring guide rod, though, and a barrel integral feed ramp keeps the FTFs down. Good part of the problem with 1911 feeding is the frame integral feed ramp and the angle of attack of the round into the barrel. It was, of course, designed to feed ball only, which if it's fitted properly, it will most times.
Didn't read all the posts here, but in addition to all those shooters who's hands don't fit anything else (not me, don't like the 1911s grip, though I can shoot it okay), it seems that some just can't or won't learn how to shoot DA, must have a single action to hit anything. My preference has always been for DA, especially in a carry gun. The Walther P38 broke that ground. Now, there is a HUGE selection of DA/DAO guns for CCW or service by makers in the US and Europe and built to all cost levels. My own preference is Ruger, but I like some of the Euro guns, too, notably Sig and CZ. I have a Ruger pocket book, though, and Rugers work. Nice having such an affordable option that's reliable out of the box, strong to the max, and built in the USA.
I can't say I'll never buy another 1911, but it's not high on my list. Actually, I've got all the semi autos I need at this point, prefer to buy revolvers for aesthetics, range shooting, outdoor, and general safe queen duty. LOL I'm a revolver guy, carry one occasionally, but I admit to the superiority of the auto chucker for serious self defense, CCW duty. You can speculate about reliability and never jamming, but just shoot some competition with the revolver, then a semi auto sometime, tell me which one's faster to shoot accurately and reload for in a fire fight. This is one area where a tuned 1911 still shines, just that I don't want to put up with SA for carry. I am much happier with a DA hammer down, ready to rock and roll with no safety to worry about.
Didn't read all the posts here, but in addition to all those shooters who's hands don't fit anything else (not me, don't like the 1911s grip, though I can shoot it okay), it seems that some just can't or won't learn how to shoot DA, must have a single action to hit anything. My preference has always been for DA, especially in a carry gun. The Walther P38 broke that ground. Now, there is a HUGE selection of DA/DAO guns for CCW or service by makers in the US and Europe and built to all cost levels. My own preference is Ruger, but I like some of the Euro guns, too, notably Sig and CZ. I have a Ruger pocket book, though, and Rugers work. Nice having such an affordable option that's reliable out of the box, strong to the max, and built in the USA.
I can't say I'll never buy another 1911, but it's not high on my list. Actually, I've got all the semi autos I need at this point, prefer to buy revolvers for aesthetics, range shooting, outdoor, and general safe queen duty. LOL I'm a revolver guy, carry one occasionally, but I admit to the superiority of the auto chucker for serious self defense, CCW duty. You can speculate about reliability and never jamming, but just shoot some competition with the revolver, then a semi auto sometime, tell me which one's faster to shoot accurately and reload for in a fire fight. This is one area where a tuned 1911 still shines, just that I don't want to put up with SA for carry. I am much happier with a DA hammer down, ready to rock and roll with no safety to worry about.
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MCgunner
Member
The DA revolver is one of the safest designed guns to carry. I am not saying the 1911 carried condition one is inherently unsafe. I just don't want one pointing at my butt IWB with the hammer back, no thanks! I realize it has a grip safety and a firing pin block backing up the manual safety, but all three are mechanical devices and can fail. They might have a great reputation for reliability. Tell that one to Mr Murphy, save your breath on me.
I do NOT like Glock's "safe action", either. They no doubt named it the "safe action" to keep liability lawyers at bay. It has a miserable record for ADs in law enforcement, way I understand it, and I can see why. The trigger is practically SA in action, like carrying condition one with no safety other than the do hicky on the trigger.
However, DA guns and the DA revolver have no spring tension on the hammer, the hammer block keeps them from being fired without full retraction of the trigger, and the trigger has a long, relatively heavy stroke to preclude it being pulled by accident, a stick in the trigger guard, clothing, whatever. If the hammer is down, it cannot go bang without you MAKE it go bang.
A lot of this is subjective, but the 1911 is hugely popular for the following reasons.
1. It feels good. I can't count how many people I've heard describing "seeing the light" upon shooting their first 1911.
2. #1 instills a lot of confidence. I think the 1911 design lends itself to slightly better accuracy than the other best autos. I was pretty confident in a Beretta 92FS, but I'm dead confident with a 1911.
3. There is something to be said for its proven track record. The 1911 has been through numerous wars and was retired from U.S. military use based on a political decision & not a practical one. It surprises few of us that many soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan are paying their own money for 1911s to fight with.
4. As has been mentioned - after-market parts. 1911s dominate shooting sports in part because of the original design, but the huge number of parts available is pretty enticing for do-it-yourselfers.
5. They're not ugly like Glocks, Sigs and H&Ks.......
1. It feels good. I can't count how many people I've heard describing "seeing the light" upon shooting their first 1911.
2. #1 instills a lot of confidence. I think the 1911 design lends itself to slightly better accuracy than the other best autos. I was pretty confident in a Beretta 92FS, but I'm dead confident with a 1911.
3. There is something to be said for its proven track record. The 1911 has been through numerous wars and was retired from U.S. military use based on a political decision & not a practical one. It surprises few of us that many soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan are paying their own money for 1911s to fight with.
4. As has been mentioned - after-market parts. 1911s dominate shooting sports in part because of the original design, but the huge number of parts available is pretty enticing for do-it-yourselfers.
5. They're not ugly like Glocks, Sigs and H&Ks.......
MTMilitiaman
Member
My brother had his Springfield MilSpec two or three weeks before I got my HK USP. The entire time he had it, when he wasn't shooting it, he was fondling it, caressing it, taking it apart, and putting it back together. He got to where he could and would do it while watching a movie and not even watch what he was doing. I bought my USP, took it out to the van, read the owners manual, and after taking it apart twice, I could take it apart and put it back together again before he could get his 1911 apart. The Glock is even easier and the difference in difficulty has only increased with my brother's addition of a heavier recoil spring and Wilson Shok Buff system. It is the same thing with a SIG Pro and the Ruger P90 and the Beretta and the Desert Eagle...you give anyone capable of chewing their own food 2 minutes with these autos and they will field strip circles around the 1911.
As for detail stripping, PITA with the HK. Never done it on the Ruger, Beretta, or Desert Eagle, but it is like 3 pins on the Glock. I printed out instructions, detail stripped my Glock 20, gave it a $.25 trigger job, and put it back together in a little over half an hour--and that was my first time. You may call it a tie with the 1911, but the 1911 certainly isn't faster.
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
Strip
psh...Ya'll come see me and I'll treat ya to a 45-second detail strip...from in-battery to gutted...frame and slide.
psh...Ya'll come see me and I'll treat ya to a 45-second detail strip...from in-battery to gutted...frame and slide.
Cocked & Locked
Member
yep, I've seen him do it...impressed me!
Longtime Military Use and other...
At present, mine is a Stainless Springer GI .45.
The military did have a lot to do with the popularity, and ex-military guys looking for civilian versions. Hey, ever heard of someone buying a game of golf - you know, the best clubs money can buy, then lessons follow, etc. On the contrary, let's have a competition. Let's compete with two inexpensive, same make .45 pistols that have been proven with 500 rounds. Want to try me without the magwell, improved internals and tweaking? Let's go for it, and see who can really shoot!
I've often wondered what the present golf tour champions would look like in a contest with reproduced 1932 clubs, instead of the modern titanium whiz clubs. Might be fun to watch, and laugh.
Everybody wants an edge, and not necessarily a level playing field.
At present, mine is a Stainless Springer GI .45.
The military did have a lot to do with the popularity, and ex-military guys looking for civilian versions. Hey, ever heard of someone buying a game of golf - you know, the best clubs money can buy, then lessons follow, etc. On the contrary, let's have a competition. Let's compete with two inexpensive, same make .45 pistols that have been proven with 500 rounds. Want to try me without the magwell, improved internals and tweaking? Let's go for it, and see who can really shoot!
I've often wondered what the present golf tour champions would look like in a contest with reproduced 1932 clubs, instead of the modern titanium whiz clubs. Might be fun to watch, and laugh.
Everybody wants an edge, and not necessarily a level playing field.
MTMilitiaman
Member
That is impressive. But I have to say, it wouldn't surprise me in the least to find out there is a Glock certified Master Armorer out there who can match or beat that with a Glock. I had to read before each step my first time and still did it in under 2 minutes.
BullfrogKen
Moderator Emeritus
Ok, I don't know what's with the race to field strip the quickest. Stripping should be done slowly and seductively . . . where's my stack of $1's . . .
Field strip any auto designed after say, the advent of the Hi Power, and its easy for any Joe to do. Detail strip . . . well, better take that armorer's course for Glock's & Sig's & what not. I've had my 1911's down to bare butt nothing but its grip bushings and plunger tube many times; I've never gotten that far with my Sig. Afraid I'll get slapped going to second base? Not really, its just so much harder to do, and you almost need 3 hands to get those springs back in.
The 1911 faced SERIOUS competiton during the hey day of IPSC. Gun manufacturers would sponsor, pay, do whatever to get one of their guns in the hands of the top shooters for a chance to win a major title. It was a big deal have one of your company's guns, ammo, sights, whatever be the tool "THAT GUY" used to win the big matches. When the buying public saw so and so won with such and such, that stuff sold.
Guys tried to make the double action systems work, they really did. The problems they were facing were that they just couldn't last a season. 1911's did. Parts may wear and break, but the frames last. The nature of the design of the 1911 just allows it longevity that the new guns couldn't achieve.
There was incentive to make them work. Higher capacity and sponsorship just didn't overcome the strengths of the 1911. I'm not a game gunner; I've never been. I like it for other reasons, but if there were any time that the 1911 coulda/woulda/shoulda been dethroned, the 80's was it. Its still the king of the heap for guys who shoot seriously. SERIOUS round counts destroy most guns. Anyone not shooting, say, 20,000 rounds a year minimum, won't be competitive. Sig 228's have a service life of about half that, so does Beretta. About the only non-1911 design that can match its lifespan for round count is a 9mm Hi-Power.
But, for most folks, the modern guns are "good enough". Comparisons like this remind me of standard vs automatic transmission sportcar debates. That auto transmission does fine, but it has its limitations. In order for you to excel and differentiate your performance, you need to standard. You'll make it stall until you learn how to run it right, but once you do, its second nature. Same thing. I can drive in traffic, change the radio, notice the attractive woman walking the dog, and still manage to keep a standard from stalling all at the same time. It all a matter of commitment to learning the system.
Field strip any auto designed after say, the advent of the Hi Power, and its easy for any Joe to do. Detail strip . . . well, better take that armorer's course for Glock's & Sig's & what not. I've had my 1911's down to bare butt nothing but its grip bushings and plunger tube many times; I've never gotten that far with my Sig. Afraid I'll get slapped going to second base? Not really, its just so much harder to do, and you almost need 3 hands to get those springs back in.
The 1911 faced SERIOUS competiton during the hey day of IPSC. Gun manufacturers would sponsor, pay, do whatever to get one of their guns in the hands of the top shooters for a chance to win a major title. It was a big deal have one of your company's guns, ammo, sights, whatever be the tool "THAT GUY" used to win the big matches. When the buying public saw so and so won with such and such, that stuff sold.
Guys tried to make the double action systems work, they really did. The problems they were facing were that they just couldn't last a season. 1911's did. Parts may wear and break, but the frames last. The nature of the design of the 1911 just allows it longevity that the new guns couldn't achieve.
There was incentive to make them work. Higher capacity and sponsorship just didn't overcome the strengths of the 1911. I'm not a game gunner; I've never been. I like it for other reasons, but if there were any time that the 1911 coulda/woulda/shoulda been dethroned, the 80's was it. Its still the king of the heap for guys who shoot seriously. SERIOUS round counts destroy most guns. Anyone not shooting, say, 20,000 rounds a year minimum, won't be competitive. Sig 228's have a service life of about half that, so does Beretta. About the only non-1911 design that can match its lifespan for round count is a 9mm Hi-Power.
But, for most folks, the modern guns are "good enough". Comparisons like this remind me of standard vs automatic transmission sportcar debates. That auto transmission does fine, but it has its limitations. In order for you to excel and differentiate your performance, you need to standard. You'll make it stall until you learn how to run it right, but once you do, its second nature. Same thing. I can drive in traffic, change the radio, notice the attractive woman walking the dog, and still manage to keep a standard from stalling all at the same time. It all a matter of commitment to learning the system.
MTMilitiaman
Member
I think when Chuck Taylor puts over 200,000 rounds through a Gen I Glock 17, the longevity of the design should be assured. But even if that doesn't do it for you, and even if the Glock and other automatic pistols can't match the 1911 for longevity shot-for-shot, many of them cost so much less than most 1911s used in competition that you can buy two or three of them for the cost of one 1911. Also, let's not forget that the Crane Naval Research Center gives the HK Mk 23 a service life before depot level maintence is required fully twice that of the 1911s in military service--30,000 rounds compared to 15,000--with the Beretta tagging along at 5,000. So newer polymer framed pistols can compete with the service life of a 1911 and fare well.
ezypikns
Member
RIA 1911, USP .40, S&W Model 10......
all good. Just because I like one doesn't mean I have to dislike the others. I get a lot of pleasure out of all of them, and they're all effective in their own way. Whatever you shoot, enjoy it.
all good. Just because I like one doesn't mean I have to dislike the others. I get a lot of pleasure out of all of them, and they're all effective in their own way. Whatever you shoot, enjoy it.
iamhistory
Member
- Joined
- Jan 6, 2003
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- 248
Everything about a 1911 makes it great.
brickboy240
Member
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What makes the 1911 great?
Well, if you handle one, shoot it and still have to ask...I cannot help you.
You either "get it" or you don't...I guess.
- Brickboy240
Well, if you handle one, shoot it and still have to ask...I cannot help you.
You either "get it" or you don't...I guess.
- Brickboy240
GarandOwner
Member
My favorite is the single stack magazine, this makes the 1911 skinnier than most other handguns, to me that makes it fit better in the hand
Ivy Mike
Member
Skunkabilly said:
JMB wanted a great handgun...which is why he built the High Power.
I think the reason people like the grip of the 1911 is not so much because of its angle, but because its a narrow gun. Its easier to get a grip on.
This comes at the cost of capacity which has always been, IMHO, something that is unacceptable. Sure, I could find a wide body 1911 to deal with capacity concerns, but at that point, a whole bunch of other quality guns start to outshine the relic from the turn of the 20th century.
Nice gun, but too expensive (probably because of its popularity) and offers no other advantages over something like my CZ75B.
I get more capacity
better ergonomics
internally running slide
DA or cocked and locked
ammo concerns aren't really an issue as I am not limited to ball ammo.
1911's are nice, but nothing special.
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
re:
Quote:
1...get more capacity
2...better ergonomics
3...internally running slide
4...DA or cocked and locked
1...Capacity only helps if you plan on missing a lot.
2...
matter of personal preference and hand construction. Many of us actually find that the 1911's ergonomics are without equal.
Of course...most of us who feel that way have stuck with the gun instead of buying into the "Whizbang of the Month Club."
3...Much more difficult to rebuild/tighten/refit the slide when it wears or when the slide needs to be lowered a tick. Dunno 'bout you, but I never cared much for disposable weapons.
4...The latter is both fast and consistent. The former is mainly for those unwilling to learn their gun and/or uncomfortable with cocked and locked...
which basically comes from a lack of understand as to how the design works.
I like double-action...in a revolver. In an autopistol, it really is quite awkward...at least for me. YMMV, of course.
Cheers!
Quote:
1...get more capacity
2...better ergonomics
3...internally running slide
4...DA or cocked and locked
1...Capacity only helps if you plan on missing a lot.
2...
matter of personal preference and hand construction. Many of us actually find that the 1911's ergonomics are without equal.Of course...most of us who feel that way have stuck with the gun instead of buying into the "Whizbang of the Month Club."
3...Much more difficult to rebuild/tighten/refit the slide when it wears or when the slide needs to be lowered a tick. Dunno 'bout you, but I never cared much for disposable weapons.
4...The latter is both fast and consistent. The former is mainly for those unwilling to learn their gun and/or uncomfortable with cocked and locked...
which basically comes from a lack of understand as to how the design works.
I like double-action...in a revolver. In an autopistol, it really is quite awkward...at least for me. YMMV, of course.
Cheers!
flashman70
Member
As many more knowledgeable THR members than I have noted on this thread, the 1911 just feels "right". Great trigger, feels great in your hand, shoots a big caliber round accurately. And I own one to shoot - not to anguish over whether it takes a couple extra minutes to field strip. There are certainly more utilitarian pistols - Glock comes to mind - but the 1911 does what I want it to do - shoot well..............and, as noted above, it is an American icon.
3 weelin geezer
Member
- Joined
- Dec 11, 2005
- Messages
- 28
I was asking about the govt. price on an m16 = $500
Now about the 1911's I was told .....suspense... ....wait for it...wait for it... Ok, I'll tell you. The best part is that when they phased out the 1911 for use in the military it cost a whopping
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$20
Yes, a whole 20 spot. You can't fill your tank up with that anymore but if you are uncle sam (wish I was) you can get one for chump change. Hell, the ammo costs more than the pistol.
Now, if this doesnt make the 1911 a great firearm I don't know what does.
Now about the 1911's I was told .....suspense...
....wait for it...wait for it... Ok, I'll tell you. The best part is that when they phased out the 1911 for use in the military it cost a whopping.
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$20
Yes, a whole 20 spot. You can't fill your tank up with that anymore but if you are uncle sam (wish I was) you can get one for chump change. Hell, the ammo costs more than the pistol.Now, if this doesnt make the 1911 a great firearm I don't know what does.
Jack19
Member
Tuner, thanks for the offer. I may take you up on it.
Even though my experience with 1911s has been, uniformly, poor, every once in awhile I get that itch to get one....and I do.
right now the springfield GI is calling my name...I'm trying to resist. lol
Even though my experience with 1911s has been, uniformly, poor, every once in awhile I get that itch to get one....and I do.
right now the springfield GI is calling my name...I'm trying to resist. lol
jockeys
Member
hm.
<quote>If pluses, why don't more gunmakers use them?</quote>
I think you will find more manufacturers make 1911 clones than any other type of pistol...
<quote>If pluses, why don't more gunmakers use them?</quote>
I think you will find more manufacturers make 1911 clones than any other type of pistol...
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
Itchin'
Well, Jack...I ain't more than an hour away. Easy access off I-85 and three miles from. Come on down and set a spell.
Well, Jack...I ain't more than an hour away. Easy access off I-85 and three miles from. Come on down and set a spell.
robertbank
Member
Vern Humphrey - Lots of Moros may have died but few by the 1911 given that particular adventure was over in 1902.
I love my 1911's. The gun has had significant improvements made over the original design IMHO which include:
Beavertail
Ramped barrel - allowing for a fully supported case
Sights
Paras new internal extractor/nothing wrong with the external ones either
(Capacity - 10 rd mags S/S or the widebody if you prefer)
Biggest Drawback today imho:
Relative Cost to manufacture.
Wish list: a Linkless barrel removes one less thing to break. Sour grapes as I just had one break due to an ill fitted barrel.
1911 Tuner - With my new match grade barrel installed my Nork now is capable of shooting 1" groups from a rest out to 25 metres. Not bad with my ageing eyes! I guess every cloud does have a silver lining. LOL
I love my 1911's. The gun has had significant improvements made over the original design IMHO which include:
Beavertail
Ramped barrel - allowing for a fully supported case
Sights
Paras new internal extractor/nothing wrong with the external ones either
(Capacity - 10 rd mags S/S or the widebody if you prefer)
Biggest Drawback today imho:
Relative Cost to manufacture.
Wish list: a Linkless barrel removes one less thing to break. Sour grapes as I just had one break due to an ill fitted barrel.
1911 Tuner - With my new match grade barrel installed my Nork now is capable of shooting 1" groups from a rest out to 25 metres. Not bad with my ageing eyes! I guess every cloud does have a silver lining. LOL
Longbow
Member
1911 is an awesome gun if it works. I use it for gun games, but for CCW, I carry a Glock or XD.
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