ljnowell
Member
I don't carry a 380 but my father does. He carries a 95 grain lead hollow point handloaded by me.
What Type Of Ammo Do You Carry In your 380 Pistol?
- Thread starter kokapelli
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That's the kind of ammo you carry in your 380?Not all of us .... this is what I carry.
My carry ammo and my practice ammo ( one in the same )
Interesting!
I'm not a police officer. I have no intention of shooting through barriers. 8-10in of penetration is all I ask of the .380.
Any of the modern 380 SD loads are similar enough. They all become like FMJ when they fail to expand.
I only choose Hornady XTP's because I know they feed 100% in my guns and I can reload with XTP's to simulate my carry ammo.
Any of the modern 380 SD loads are similar enough. They all become like FMJ when they fail to expand.
I only choose Hornady XTP's because I know they feed 100% in my guns and I can reload with XTP's to simulate my carry ammo.
Billy Shears
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You people carrying handloads, God help you if you ever shoot anybody with that stuff. The issue isn't (usually) "he wasn't satisfied with regular factory ammo; he had to go an load special, deadlier bullets, designed to inflict more horrific wounds." The issue is of forensic testing of the ammo. If the distance at which the suspect was shot becomes a factor in a trial (and it often does, being used to persuade the jury that the suspect was or was not as imminent and dangerous a threat as the defendant says he was), then gunshot residue tests may be vital in confirming that the shooting was, in fact, at bad breath distance like you said, and not, say ten or fifteen feet away, like the prosecutors are claiming. Remember, even if your lawyer can summon expert witnesses to certify that an assailant is still a deadly threat at that distance, any evidence that makes it look like what you said to investigators is different than what actually happened will make it more likely that a jury will think you are being deceptive.
A forensic lab can take your factory ammo, and check it against identical ammo from the same lot produced by the manufacturer. They can't do that with your handloads. The court won't take your reloading data either and duplicate the round that way. It's seen as self-serving evidence, and not independent, and therefore suspect.
A forensic lab can take your factory ammo, and check it against identical ammo from the same lot produced by the manufacturer. They can't do that with your handloads. The court won't take your reloading data either and duplicate the round that way. It's seen as self-serving evidence, and not independent, and therefore suspect.
Evil-Twin
member
I apologize, I forgot what thread I was in and was responding to someone saying that " many people do not know what effect their carry round actually does "...
I am so sorry, that I made a mistake, glad you were able to jump on it with passion.
Bill aka ET
When you get to be my age and when my 380 ACP and my 45 ACP are the same physical size and weight its easy to make the mistake unless of course your are on the receiving end of these weapon where one is obviously much more devastating than the other.
My 380 ACP and my 45 ACP side by side, easy to mistake...
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ljnowell
Member
Please don't derail this thread that way. It's been argued to death. There is no proof at all to back up that statement and it's pointless.
A forensic lab can most definitely test your ammo. The only case that came into question was Daniel bias and that's because he had multiple different handloads in the gun at once.
Only time I carry FMJ in a .380 is if I'm out in the woods and I think I might need to shoot a bear or something where I really will need max penetration depth.
95% of the time I carry JHP. When I do carry the FMJs, its the Winchester stuff.
Only pistol I carry with FMJs all the time is the little .25 ACP
For a while I carried the Hornady 35gr XTP for the .25 but I decided to move to 50gr FMJ after doing so research and doing some tests shooting into jugs of water. I was comparing the .25 to .380 and 9X18 Makarov, the later two would expand reliably (at the time was trying golden sabre in the 380 and XTP in the Mak) but the .25 failed to expand more often than not. I figured if it's not going to expand anyway, might as well go for the FMJ and get the heavy (at least for caliber) bullet...
95% of the time I carry JHP. When I do carry the FMJs, its the Winchester stuff.
Only pistol I carry with FMJs all the time is the little .25 ACP
For a while I carried the Hornady 35gr XTP for the .25 but I decided to move to 50gr FMJ after doing so research and doing some tests shooting into jugs of water. I was comparing the .25 to .380 and 9X18 Makarov, the later two would expand reliably (at the time was trying golden sabre in the 380 and XTP in the Mak) but the .25 failed to expand more often than not. I figured if it's not going to expand anyway, might as well go for the FMJ and get the heavy (at least for caliber) bullet...
Billy Shears
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That is an absolutely false statement. The very case you cited, the Bias case, is proof to back up that statement! This is hardly pointless. It goes directly to the advisability of carrying handloads as defensive ammo. I think that's highly relevant to the type of ammo you carry.
Maybe they can, but they won't.
It's the only case of which you are aware. Even if that had not been so, Ayoob's other point still stands: you cannot rely on the police testing the remaining rounds in your gun (if there are any).
And let me tell you, having sat through many trials, and having seen the justice system at work, for the love of God don't count on the lawyers, judges, and jurors being sensible. The court system is not some ideal system that always works the way it's supposed to. It's an institution run by people, carrying all their prejudices, errors of opinion, ignorance of facts, etc. into the court room. Every time you step into the courtroom, you are rolling the dice. You think innocent people don't get convicted? Think again. Why would you ever want to hand the prosecution something to use against you? Even if you win the case in the end, the harder you make it on your defense team, the more it's going to cost you in legal fees. Funny you should mention Bias -- his legal fees ended up topping $100,000 and bankrupting him. And he was still convicted of a felony and is now forbidden to own firearms. Seems like factory ammo is pretty cheap insurance to close off that line of attack to a prosecutor.
Save your handloads for practice.
ljnowell
Member
No it's not. Plainly you plainly won't read what's in front of you. The ammo in that case couldn't have the results used in court because he had MULTIPLE different loads in the SAME cylinder. He had a box with different loads in it and they were mixed and matched. There was no say to say which one she was shot with.
However in the world you could possibly say that proves your point is beyond logical thinking.
While you are bringing up AYOOB realize that he can't provide any evidence or cases to back this up either.
I'm done with the argument because, as usual, you will argue without anything to back you up and insist it's fact because some guy said it is.
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I hear ShootingTheBull410 say that occasionally in his videos - mostly about the 9mm, and he sometimes will say something to the effect "I'm not going to be shooting through windshields."
I've sat in my car and practiced drawing for the scenario of a car jacking. Even though the driver's side window isn't curved like a windshield, I've found it is really difficult to swivel in your seat, get square to an assailant coming at your driver's side, get the pistol out in front of you and use the sights. I'm pretty sure that in a car jacking I will be point-shooting. And the gun will probably be at an angle to the window. That's just my car and my driver's side window, other people have different vehicles - maybe some people don't even drive.
I think people should apply their own use-cases to the ammo they carry.
Maybe you own a messenger service in Minneapolis and you drive around all winter and your primary concern is a car jacking. And you determine you need to be able to shoot through your drivers side window and stop a car jacker. Well then you want a bullet that can go through a glass barrier, heavy clothing and still reach vital tissue. Find the cartridge that does that.
Billy Shears
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And Ayoob also pointed out that he has seen cases where police refused (per the prosecutor) to test the rest of the ammo remaining, because it was "destroying the evidence," and as silly as that sounds, the judge accepted the argument.
Bottom line you CANNOT depend on their testing your ammo. And that's assuming you have any left for them to test in the first place. Especially with a marginal caliber like the .380, you may shoot your entire mag at your assailant.
Because it proves that handloads most certainly can become an issue with a criminal trial. It's NOT the total non-issue you are claiming. Any trial will be unique unto itself. You can't predict what will happen in any particular case, especially a hypothetical one. But your best guide is past cases. Handloads are something that the prosecutor can make an issue of. It's happened before. Opting to use them means you are needlessly handing a prosecutor a potential avenue of attack. Why would you want to do that?
Pardon me, but I am going to assume that the guy who has spent years studying the issue, and who has been called in numerous trials as an expert witness, who is a former Vice Chairman of the Forensic Evidence Committee of the National Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers (NACDL), and is believed to be the only non-attorney ever to hold this position, is probably someone who knows just a little bit more about this issue than an internet commando who has, in all probability, no direct experience of self-defense shootings, and no legal expertise.
Everything in life is a trade off. Some are sensible ones, and some are not. It is certainly entirely possible that you may become involved in a shooting, and the situation is so clear cut that there is no doubt you were in the right, and the type of ammo you were carrying never becomes an issue. On the other hand, it's possible the circumstances will not be so cut and dried. Perhaps the man you shot had a buddy on scene who will lie to the police and implicate you, like what happened in the Michael Brown case. Perhaps you will be in a jurisdiction where the prosecutor is anti-gun and will target you to make an example. Perhaps you will simply misstate some minor detail in your statement to police, or be wrong about something after a high-stress situation. Perhaps anything, the possibilities are endless. And any number of factors could result in the police looking at you like a suspect in a murder.
Now if any of these things should happen, why do you want to open another line of attack against yourself? It doesn't make sense. What are you getting out of using handloads? The odds that you are going to design a load that is demonstrably more effective than the best modern factory ammo are negligible. The savings that you will realize over a couple of boxes of factory hollowpoints are trivial (you can work up a load to practice with that will duplicate the ballistics of your chosen carry ammo, and it's there you'll save your money). If you use handloads for defensive ammo you are running a risk, and it is one where you gain nothing, NOTHING, that makes that a worthwhile risk to run.
Sure, you can use handloads if you want. There's nothing stopping you. But if it becomes an issue, and it just might, you chose to put yourself behind the eight ball, and what did you get that you wouldn't have got out of using factory ammo?
Posted by ljnowell:
The "proof" lies in the underlying requirements of the rules of evidence.
I started to suggest that you read Daubert v Merrell Dow, but in view of the complexity of the subject and all of the relevant nuances, I think you would be much better off taking a course that focuses on how the rulings have affected the admissibility of forensic scientific trace evidence.
I have, by the way.
Until you have done so, I strongly advise that you accept what Billy Shears has said here.
However, should you try to have the results introduced into evidence, the attorneys for the other side (for the state or the plaintiff) can surely be expected to object, and they would have a very sound legal basis for doing so. The judge would certainly be expected to prevent the evidence from being admitted.
The jury will never know it existed.
Oh yes there is!
The "proof" lies in the underlying requirements of the rules of evidence.
I started to suggest that you read Daubert v Merrell Dow, but in view of the complexity of the subject and all of the relevant nuances, I think you would be much better off taking a course that focuses on how the rulings have affected the admissibility of forensic scientific trace evidence.
I have, by the way.
Until you have done so, I strongly advise that you accept what Billy Shears has said here.
Yes, of course, and you may choose to have it done.
However, should you try to have the results introduced into evidence, the attorneys for the other side (for the state or the plaintiff) can surely be expected to object, and they would have a very sound legal basis for doing so. The judge would certainly be expected to prevent the evidence from being admitted.
The jury will never know it existed.
kBob
Member
Getting to hot around here so time for a kBob Story......
A writer friend was driving home in the early 1980's when suddenly a chicken hen threw itself in front of his Mercedes and there was a bump.
Writer friend stopped (for a chicken?) and saw the chicken was not dead but appeared badly injured on this rural road. Being a caring and feeling sort of writer type guy he determined he would put the chicken out of its agony. Unfortunatly life in the big city had not taught him much about killing chickens.
A .380 ACP Astra Constable was pulled from its legal place and pointed at the chicken. It occurred to friend writer that he had allowed himself to be convinced by a small town police officer to use yea olde stagger load technique and his round up first was an expensive Glaser Safety slug. He ejected the round and pocketed it. Now he had a HP ( I think early silver tip) up and so aimed at the center of mass (I do not know why, OK?) and fired at the stationary but quivering avian victim. He hit right where he was pointing and the chicken immediately expir.....of course not it jump up and began running in a circle sqwaulking loudly. This caused concern from friend writer who immediately fired the next round, a FMJ which performed just like a FMJ and the chicken became more excited. Almost terrified at the zombie chicken friend writer let fly a third round.....a Glaser safety slug which caused the chicken to expire immediately and spray chicken vitals and fluids every where.
Ammo selection is important. If I am ever attacked by rabid poultry I want Glasers in my .380............
.....and if I ever do something as silly as shooting a chicken in the first place I will not tell anyone that will one day post a "sanitized' version of the story on line.
-kBob
A writer friend was driving home in the early 1980's when suddenly a chicken hen threw itself in front of his Mercedes and there was a bump.
Writer friend stopped (for a chicken?) and saw the chicken was not dead but appeared badly injured on this rural road. Being a caring and feeling sort of writer type guy he determined he would put the chicken out of its agony. Unfortunatly life in the big city had not taught him much about killing chickens.
A .380 ACP Astra Constable was pulled from its legal place and pointed at the chicken. It occurred to friend writer that he had allowed himself to be convinced by a small town police officer to use yea olde stagger load technique and his round up first was an expensive Glaser Safety slug. He ejected the round and pocketed it. Now he had a HP ( I think early silver tip) up and so aimed at the center of mass (I do not know why, OK?) and fired at the stationary but quivering avian victim. He hit right where he was pointing and the chicken immediately expir.....of course not it jump up and began running in a circle sqwaulking loudly. This caused concern from friend writer who immediately fired the next round, a FMJ which performed just like a FMJ and the chicken became more excited. Almost terrified at the zombie chicken friend writer let fly a third round.....a Glaser safety slug which caused the chicken to expire immediately and spray chicken vitals and fluids every where.
Ammo selection is important. If I am ever attacked by rabid poultry I want Glasers in my .380............
.....and if I ever do something as silly as shooting a chicken in the first place I will not tell anyone that will one day post a "sanitized' version of the story on line.
-kBob
Ibmikey
Member
I carry FMJ in all of my semi auto pistols, they function reliabily and if i ever am called upon to fire and run out of ammo my intentions are to hobble away as fast as arthritic joints will take me.
ljnowell
Member
Please provide a list of the instances and cases that this has occurred in.
kBob
Member
Kleanbore and ljnowell,
Don't make me post a long one with no punchline!
Please start a new thread to continue your rants.
I know it is now ancient history.....more than three years ago at least....but some of you may remember when .380 ACP was as hard to find as reasonably priced .22LR is for most of us now.
I am curious as to what (if any of you plastic frame totting .380 newcomers carried 9mm Corto way back then) did you do for ammo.
At one point I got so despirate I almost bought a partial box of Remington HPs at a Junk Shop/Flea market with a mind to pull the bullets and reload the darn things. This because on examining the box not everything was a Remington head stamp.
I actually briefly cleaned my shop searching for my .380ACP loading dies, cases and bullets. Most interesting find was the partial box of Speer 100 grain JHP that I had been loading into .380 cases in the late 1980's. No worry about short overall length there!
-kBob
Don't make me post a long one with no punchline!
Please start a new thread to continue your rants.
I know it is now ancient history.....more than three years ago at least....but some of you may remember when .380 ACP was as hard to find as reasonably priced .22LR is for most of us now.
I am curious as to what (if any of you plastic frame totting .380 newcomers carried 9mm Corto way back then) did you do for ammo.
At one point I got so despirate I almost bought a partial box of Remington HPs at a Junk Shop/Flea market with a mind to pull the bullets and reload the darn things. This because on examining the box not everything was a Remington head stamp.
I actually briefly cleaned my shop searching for my .380ACP loading dies, cases and bullets. Most interesting find was the partial box of Speer 100 grain JHP that I had been loading into .380 cases in the late 1980's. No worry about short overall length there!
-kBob
huntsman
Member
I paid $26.00 for WWB
that was 2010 and only because I depleted my stash of $8.99 stuff that I starting buying in 03.
Yelling is uppercase.Why the hell are you yelling.
GoldieMI
Member
Cor-Bon 90grain JHP in a P238
Ironicaintit
Member
I use my handloads because I can absolutely trust that they have been assembled correctly and consistently, with quality components. They are crafted with care, not run through a high speed processing line.
Not often, but I have had several factory "duds" over the years, in .380, 9mm and .45.
That would be the crux of my argument if my choice of ammo were to be scrutinized in a court of law.
Not often, but I have had several factory "duds" over the years, in .380, 9mm and .45.
That would be the crux of my argument if my choice of ammo were to be scrutinized in a court of law.
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