What would you do?

[Deleted member 66305]

Saturday, I went to the Renaissance Festival with my girlfriend Cindy, my two daughters, Cindy's daughter, my ex, and her boyfriend. The weather was great, and there were a lot of people in costume (largely anachronistic to the target historical period, or even to any non-fantasy historical period, but that's another rant...)

However, one event marred the day.

I had arrived at the Dead Bob show early to get seats and block off a portion of the bench for all of us, and my older daughter and I were delineating the endpoints of our block of seats. A couple times I had to tell people I was saving the seats for my family, and would they mind sitting elsewhere (there were still plenty of available seats) -- most moved a couple feet to different seats.

Then this one old guy (I'll call him Jerk) and his (I presume) wife sat down between me and my daughter, and I said, "Sir, excuse me, I'm sorry, but I'm trying to save this block of seats for my family." He looked back at me and said, "Well, I don't see anybody here, so I guess they're mine." At this point, there were still plenty of seats available for groups of 3 or so, but none as large as the block I was trying to reserve.

"Sir, you could move one bench forward, and be slightly closer to the stage."

"I could, but I'm not gonna. What are you gonna do about it?!"

I started to get irritated, and people were starting to look at us.

"I am going to try to appeal to your sense of decency. Please help me out here and move a row forward, so my family can all sit together."

His wife said, "Let's move forward."

Jerk said, "No, I sat here, and this is where I'm staying."

"Sir, will you please move forward? There are no other groups of empty seats large enough for all my family."

His wife was pulling on his arm, urging him to move forward, but he wouldn't budge, and shook her off.

I kid you not, his next words to me were, "Make me."

I had my .357 magnum in my pocket, and when I do, I generally have my hand in my pocket on the grip -- it looks perfectly casual, yet I am able to draw my weapon at a moment's notice if need be. I was in this posture throughout the entire exchange, and when he said, "Make me", I felt that I really could do nothing but ignore him at that point without escalating the situation. I replied to him, "Sir, it's not worth it," and sat down.

When the rest of my family arrived, he splayed out his hands to occupy space for three people, and told them he was "reserving" those spots (nobody else ever came).

At that point, the couple in front of me let him have it, telling him in very unflattering language precisely what they thought of him, and moved over to make room for my group.

I felt there was a chance I might have a fight on my hands, whether I had escalated the situation or not; though I had not given him cause, the crowd around us was audibly disparaging him, and he was visibly growing angrier. I kept my hand in my pocket throughout the show.

Here are my questions:

Had he attacked me after I sat down, at what point would I be justified in drawing my weapon? If he surprises me with a punch to the face, must I wait for him to demonstrate further violent intent, or to draw a weapon of his own?

How would you have reacted at the point he said, "Make me"?

 

[COMPNOR]

Find an usher or festival official.

You said you blocked off a portion of a bench, which would make me think he could have sat outside of you.

I would maybe have offered him to trade places.

Of course from the sound of things, this guy was going to be a Grade A A-Hole no matter what, so unless you want to bring it to the attention of fair personnel, I really don't see a whole lot you can do.

 

[Dksimon]

not really a whole lot you could do differently. Yes the guy was definitely a jerk but i dont see it escalating far enough to need to draw on him.
I was at walmart recently where the cashier was confused about something and punching at buttons and the guy behind me started getting flusterd so i told him it might be a minute and that there were empty lanes on either side but he refused to budge and continued to get more and more flustered as the cashier tried to make things right. While i was loading my groceries in the car the guy drove up to my car a flipped me the bird then peeled off. People just dont have any decency

 

[psyopspec]

Had he attacked me after I sat down, at what point would I be justified in drawing my weapon?

At the point you were in fear of grave bodily harm or death for yourself or another. Even though you gave a good accounting, none of us can answer this question for you.

If he surprises me with a punch to the face, must I wait for him to demonstrate further violent intent, or to draw a weapon of his own?

Depends. If you had means other than deadly force by which to stop his attack, you're generally obligated by law (and, in my opinion, morality) to do so. I have no idea what your physical capabilities are, what his were, how many people you had with you, etc. Hopefully, if it's you versus a crotchety old codger, you can fight him off without going heels. That said, there's a reason a lot of those folks survive to such an age.

How would you have reacted at the point he said, "Make me"?

Hopefully the same way you did, but I'd have been mighty tempted to throw in another verbal parting shot.

Main thing is, you done right. Some people's kids...

 

[elChupacabra!]

This is why I avoid trying to "save seats." It's asking for trouble like this.

But to the point, if you are armed, you have a responsibility to AVOID confrontations like this one. Don't try to save seats, and don't try to argue with some jackass over said seats when he's being this unreasonable.

If you weren't carrying, I would say you could have kept going, although that episode of South Park where Stan's dad gets in a fight with someone at every little leage game comes to mind... but when you strapped on that shootin' iron, you forfeited your right to defend something as trivial as seats at a fair.

This might not be the way it ought to be, but hey, these days, you're responsible for the welfare and safety of trespassers on your own property, too, so that doesn't mean it's right... but it is the way it is.

 

[Deleted member 66305]

when you strapped on that shootin' iron, you forfeited your right to defend something as trivial as seats at a fair.

This very thought went through my mind just as I was starting to get angry, and may have played a part in my taking a deep breath and biting my tongue, rather than give him a piece of my mind.

 

[Loosedhorse]

Had he attacked me after I sat down, at what point would I be justified in drawing my weapon?

At the point you were in fear of grave bodily harm or death for yourself or another.

Need to add, if I may, "otherwise unavoidable, immediate" in front of "grave etc." So, if he knocks you down so hard you can't get up, but he stops the attack and allows you to crawl away without his attempting to kill you, you must now crawl away.

And wonder, "Why in Hades did I put myself in a position that he could knock me down? Just because I had a gun?"

(You may of course, after being knocked down, summon the police and press charges--seems that you'll have LOTS of willing witnesses, including his "wife." Or, if after he knocks you down he then proceeds to stomp you, or to attack one of your family, you may now shoot. If you still trust your aim at that point.)

AVOIDANCE! DE-ESCALATION! DISENGAGEMENT!

I should also replace "for yourself or another" with "to the innocent." Meaning, if you were seen to prolong or escalate the conflict, you are now no longer innocent, and have no self-defense claim. By my reading (I didn't hear the tone, but I presume it was always friendly) of your conversation, you did not prolong or escalate the conflict--you were just asking nicely.

Very glad it ended well. As most situations do--thanks here to the common decency of two persons in the row ahead who were complete strangers, just helping out.

 

[Rokyudai]

Sounds like he has trouble with all aspects of civility, including respecting his female counterpart. What type of jerk would be in a mood like that and attend a festival? Did he appear under the influence?

You did well and I hope some satisfaction was gotten when the public around him called his actions out. People like that get their come 'upins...but he's somebody else's problem now.

Good job...and good ale!

 

[bowl443]

How would you have reacted at the point he said, "Make me"?

If I'm carrying, I get up and look for somewhere else to sit. I didn't slip my 357 in my pocket to make sure some seats were available. I understand you didn't either, but if anything had happened, that's how it would have been perceived.

 

[ilbob]

They are not your seats unless you have a ticket with that seat number on it. I really dislike it when people that try and hold unto blocks of good seats for people that are not there.

First come first serve.

OTOH, I probably would not have sat there if you politely asked me not to.

 

[JDoe]

Had he attacked me after I sat down, at what point would I be justified in drawing my weapon?

As soon as you believed that a jury of your peers would also believe that he was intent on killing you or inflicting serious injury. I would only draw a weapon if I was willing to use it to prevent serious injury or death. (I'm not talking about the law here I'm talking about what I would do or not do.)

If he surprises me with a punch to the face, must I wait for him to demonstrate further violent intent, or to draw a weapon of his own?

Before shooting him? Yes, because if he just punches you in the face and walks off then you are no longer under attack. No attackee, no shootee.

How would you have reacted at the point he said, "Make me"?

That wouldn't happen to me because my family or group would have been there early to get a block of seats.

But what I see is that something in your approach (not saying it's wrong) rubbed this guy the wrong way. By the time he said, "make me" the situation had escalated to the point that he probably thought he couldn't back down. It was good of you to back down.

I wouldn't have let the situation escalate but changed tactics if the first request to move had failed to get the desired reaction. Most importantly I would not be a party to escalating tensions and would drop the matter quickly. Sure the guy is a jerk but being a jerk is not illegal nor is it against the rules it's just the way it is sometimes.

 

[JoeShmoe]

Good answers all, but I can't believe nobody asked about saving seats for his ex, and her boyfriend.

 

[TeamPrecisionIT]

Just because you had a gun on you doesn't mean you needed to draw on him. If the situation warranted you defending yourself with your fists, then man up and throw down to protect yourself. Just because you are carrying doesn't mean that its the ONLY way you can defend yourself. If he was being an ******* and threw a punch your way, don't hesitate to throw one back if you are justified. Carrying a gun on you doesn't mean that now you can't defend yourself AT ALL unless its life threatening. If someone tries to take your wallet, don't just let them take it because they aren't threatening major injury and you are carrying a gun. Fight back, break that a__hole's wrist, if you can. You have a right to self defense, not just a right to protect yourself from grave bodily harm.

Damian

 

[Deavis]

I felt that I really could do nothing but ignore him at that point without escalating the situation. I replied to him, "Sir, it's not worth it," and sat down.

There was nothing you could do. He was a "jerk" and so were you. I can't believe you're asking people what they would have done when he said, "make me." I contend it never had to reach that point.

1) You can't save seats unless you have a ticket - you are a jerk for trying to do it
2) Just because you can do something, doesn't mean you have to - he was a jerk for sitting there

Just because you were polite jerk doesn't mean you weren't inconsiderate in asking someone to move so you could have your desires fulfilled in an open seating venue. He wanted something and so did you, why are you calling him a jerk for wanting the same thing as you? HE probably thinks you are a jerk. Should he have moved? Sure, but he doesn't have to and more importantly you should know the law if you conceal in Texas.

You shouldn't use your gun unless you are positive you can convince a jury that you were in fear of death, great bodily harm, or he attempted to use deadly force against you. "Make me," doesn't qualify. Getting punched in the face probably won't qualify either. Even beating you up in a fight may not rise to the level a jury will require to find you not guilty. The point is, you have to be able to convince your peers at trial (assuming it gets that far) that you followed the law, which is right here:

§ 9.32. DEADLY FORCE IN DEFENSE OF PERSON. (a) A person
is justified in using deadly force against another:
(1) if the actor would be justified in using force
against the other under Section 9.31; and
(2) when and to the degree the actor reasonably
believes the deadly force is immediately necessary:
(A) to protect the actor against the other's use
or attempted use of unlawful deadly force; or
(B) to prevent the other's imminent commission of
aggravated kidnapping, murder, sexual assault, aggravated sexual
assault, robbery, or aggravated robbery.
(b) The actor's belief under Subsection (a)(2) that the
deadly force was immediately necessary as described by that
subdivision is presumed to be reasonable if the actor:
(1) knew or had reason to believe that the person
against whom the deadly force was used:
(A) unlawfully and with force entered, or was
attempting to enter unlawfully and with force, the actor's occupied
habitation, vehicle, or place of business or employment;
(B) unlawfully and with force removed, or was
attempting to remove unlawfully and with force, the actor from the
actor's habitation, vehicle, or place of business or employment; or
(C) was committing or attempting to commit an
offense described by Subsection (a)(2)(B);
(2) did not provoke the person against whom the force
was used; and
(3) was not otherwise engaged in criminal activity,
other than a Class C misdemeanor that is a violation of a law or
ordinance regulating traffic at the time the force was used.
(c) A person who has a right to be present at the location
where the deadly force is used, who has not provoked the person
against whom the deadly force is used, and who is not engaged in
criminal activity at the time the deadly force is used is not
required to retreat before using deadly force as described by this
section.
(d) For purposes of Subsection (a)(2), in determining
whether an actor described by Subsection (c) reasonably believed
that the use of deadly force was necessary, a finder of fact may not
consider whether the actor failed to retreat.

Memorize it and don't carry again until you do. If you haven't thought of what you will do then you haven't properly prepared. You don't get in a car without knowing the rules of the road. I'm not trying to be a jerk but, seriously, you are talking about using a gun in a small verbal confrontation over seating at RenFest? Take a step back and think about how insane that is from a liability standpoint. Even if you ended up being justified in shooting him, would it really be worth it?

 

[Mr Thundermaker]

Why on earth would you have your hand in your pocket on a hogleg while arguing with some dick over seats at a concert or theater production or whatever it was. Man up, dont whip out a pistol just because your manhood is being questioned by some old geezer, seriously. People like you make me nervous. Ask nicely, if he refuses then so be it, he doesn't have to. But to have your hand on your gun is insanely idiotic. If you feel action is necessary break his nose, or hip, depending on age. But dont just get ready to shoot the man over something as stupid as a seat. I would rather take an ass whipping from an old man than shoot him in front of his wife. You need to turn your mancard and CHL in at the nearest checkpoint. Mr Thundermaker

ps. if i were you i would delete this post, it may be used as evidence against you the next time someone cuts in line in front of you at McDonalds and you go on a shooting spree when they won't get back in line

 

[CWL]

You're planning on shooting holes in someone because he's refusing to move on a bench? Being an A-Hole isn't against the law and certainly doesn't give you any rights to shoot him.

Take yourself outside of this scenario and look at it is if you were a 3rd party of member of a jury. How justifiable would any of this looked? Even if you were attacked, do you really want to live the rest of your life knowing you gunned-down someone over a bench seat?

 

[ezypikns]

One of the few things stressed in Texas CHL classes....

is your responsibility to avoid confrontations. If you think you can't walk away from confrontations, (I know, I know, you did) leave your firearm at home.
Just my opinion, but I believe that even if he were beating the poop out of you and you shot this individual, you'd probably go to jail.

 

[Deleted member 66305]

1) You can't save seats unless you have a ticket - you are a jerk for trying to do it
2) Just because you can do something, doesn't mean you have to - he was a jerk for sitting there

Just because you were polite jerk doesn't mean you weren't inconsiderate in asking someone to move so you could have your desires fulfilled in an open seating venue. He wanted something and so did you, why are you calling him a jerk for wanting the same thing as you? HE probably thinks you are a jerk. Should he have moved? Sure, but he doesn't have to and more importantly you should know the law if you conceal in Texas.

You're not being a jerk for offering the counterpoint -- I appreciate it. I hadn't considered my behavior jerkish in trying to save a contiguous block of seats, as the seating was less than one third full at that point, and I deliberately chose less-than-perfect seats. Had I chosen prime seats, or had the seating been over two thirds full, I'd not have attempted it.

As far as knowing the law -- it's one thing to casually know the law, and another thing entirely to meditate on it.

I knew the situation as described was very far away from warranting a weapon even entering into it. But since the incident did cause me to be acutely aware of my duty not to escalate, my mind started gaming other scenarios. Hence this thread.

 

[Deleted member 66305]

Why on earth would you have your hand in your pocket on a hogleg while arguing with some dick over seats at a concert or theater production or whatever it was. Man up, dont whip out a pistol just because your manhood is being questioned by some old geezer, seriously. People like you make me nervous. Ask nicely, if he refuses then so be it, he doesn't have to. But to have your hand on your gun is insanely idiotic. If you feel action is necessary break his nose, or hip, depending on age. But dont just get ready to shoot the man over something as stupid as a seat. I would rather take an ass whipping from an old man than shoot him in front of his wife. You need to turn your mancard and CHL in at the nearest checkpoint. Mr Thundermaker

ps. if i were you i would delete this post, it may be used as evidence against you the next time someone cuts in line in front of you at McDonalds and you go on a shooting spree when they won't get back in line

I don't know what post you read, because as you summarised it, it doesn't resemble what I actually wrote.

When I have my pocket gun, my hand is often in my pocket, resting on the grip. As I believe I stated in the OP, it's a casual, non-threatening stance that leaves me capable of producing my weapon very quickly, should it be warranted. I'm also capable of withdrawing only my hand, if open hand is all that's needed. My hand was in my pocket, on the grip of my weapon, not in response to this man, but because it was already there.

 

[Deleted member 66305]

You're planning on shooting holes in someone because he's refusing to move on a bench? Being an A-Hole isn't against the law and certainly doesn't give you any rights to shoot him.

Take yourself outside of this scenario and look at it is if you were a 3rd party of member of a jury. How justifiable would any of this looked? Even if you were attacked, do you really want to live the rest of your life knowing you gunned-down someone over a bench seat?

Same response as I offered to Mr Thundermaker. I thought I made it quite clear in the OP that escalating the situation was the last thing I wanted to do.

I did what I thought was appropriate to de-escalate -- perhaps moving and sitting further away from him would have been advisable, as well. If so, it was a cheaply learned lesson.

What was going through my head later was, "What if he later attacked me without further provocation? If the attack was such that I felt in serious danger, would I have been justified in drawing the weapon, or had I not done enough to de-escalate and avoid the situation?"

After reading the responses here, I am guessing that unless I had taken the further step of putting more distance initially between myself and him, I might have a difficult time demonstrating to a jury that I did, indeed, do everything I could to avoid further conflict.

Where in my post did you read that I was "planning on shooting holes in him"?

 

[bobbarker]

I think it's going quite far to call you a jerk for trying to save a block of seats for your family. Like you said, you weren't taking the prime seats, and there was plenty of other seating available for smaller groups of people that he could have easily sat at. The guy was a jerk, I see nothing wrong with what you were doing. Yeah, you have no right to shoot the guy for anything he did, but, as far as trying to tell someone you're saving seats? Whether or Not you're carrying, you are allowed to ask someone to not sit in those seats, and to say otherwise, is just ascinine.

I'll agree that, yes, you should be VERY familiar with the law(Not saying you need to be able to quote it on demand) before carrying. A lot of times Ren fairs are held in parks where CC isn't permitted.


Ezypikins- If someone is "beating the poop" out of you, yes, you have the right to shoot them. That falls under self defense. People can be beaten to death, even without the assailant using something other than their fists.


Folks, try and remember this is The High Road. It's not just a catchy name. If you don't agree with how someone handled a situation, or what they say, you don't have to attack them.

 

[Deleted member 66305]

Just my opinion, but I believe that even if he were beating the poop out of you and you shot this individual, you'd probably go to jail.

Why, precisely? As a potential juror, what else should I have done to remain blameless? (Aside from dropping the matter the moment he decided to be a jerk and remain sitting there -- assuming everything up til the point where I did drop the matter.)

 

[Deleted member 66305]

Ezypikins- If someone is "beating the poop" out of you, yes, you have the right to shoot them. That falls under self defense. People can be beaten to death, even without the assailant using something other than their fists.

Thanks, Bob, but if ezypikns felt that, prior to the other guy starting to "beat the poop" out of me, I had escalated the situation, it could possibly be labelled as mutual combat; he has a valid point there, and I'd like to hear him expand on it.

Also, it might help for a lot of people to know I am 5'5" -- shorter than most other people. I also am very aware that even one unlucky punch or kick to the head can cause death, as I had a college classmate who died of brain swelling after a one-punch drunken fistfight. I am likely to try to avoid a fistfight if at all possible, and likely to feel in immediate mortal danger if somebody (especially if larger than I) assaults me physically with no weapons other than his hands. If somebody nearly 6' tall cold-cocked me, knocking me on my back, and appeared ready to continue the attack, yes, I'll use lethal force. What I am wondering is, in this case, had this individual attacked me after I backed down, would I have been blameless enough to a reasonable person to justifiably call it self-defense, or had I been guilty of escalating the conflict?

 

[CWL]

Same response as I offered to Mr Thundermaker. I thought I made it quite clear in the OP that escalating the situation was the last thing I wanted to do.

You post something on a public forum, expect opinions. Not everyone is going to be sympathetic. No need to get defensive.

The fact that you admit that

my mind started gaming other scenarios. Hence this thread.

expect other people to "game" out assumptions about you and your post.

 

[Deleted member 66305]

You post something on a public forum, expect opinions. Not everyone is going to be sympathetic. No need to get defensive.

Not defensive, so much as wondering if I'd written my OP so poorly as to give the impression I wanted to shoot him. How did my OP give you that particular impression?

expect people here to make assumptions about you -especially with your choice of forum handle.

Fair enough -- hence the explanation in my sig. Click the link, and try the beer.